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Paranoid I say paranoid. This place is becoming worse everyday. Always putting people down. I for one share my bandwidth it is not stealing because my ISP has no problem with me having a wireless router for the purpose of sharing my bandwidth with some computers. Some of you guys here are getting too anal about stuff.
hahaha... take a pic of that desktop in the car, that i HAVE to see ;)
as for the rant... much appreciated. as i said in an earlier posts, the white hats need to keep up with the black hats, and the only way to do it is to think like a black hat (in a sense).
thought it was blue hats...lol....i must be missinformed....very nice post HTRegz, I couldn't agree with you more.
P.S. I'd love to see a picture of that desktop in that car :D
White Hats --> out to inform people, the good guys :thumbsup:
Grey Hats --> your pranksters... lil script kiddies and such, doing more annoying things than anything :2pick:
Black Hats --> the bad guys... out for system destruction, taking full advantage of exploits, etc. etc. etc. :lildevil:
Pics of the car will be posted as soon as the storm stops ;) I'll just be posting links to my server (car, stereo and who knows what else) haha...
Hi, I have read through this thread and would like to comment as follows:
1. I think that it is an excellent tutorial insofar as it demonstrates the vulnerabilities of wireless networking. I have never trusted this technology completely (the kit is still in its box by my desk!) I also remember that big fuss in New Zealand about 18 months ago.
2. The style is perhaps a little uncomfortable to some, but in NO way came across as boastful or malicious to me. It seemed to be what we call "tongue in cheek", or slightly ironical. In fact, it reminded me of William Shakespear's play "Julius Caesar" and the speech by Cassius 'I come to bury Caesar not to praise him............." followed by numerous interjections of "for Brutus is an honourable man".
3. I have re-read it and do not feel that there is sufficient technical detail for me to get in the car tomorrow and go out wardriving. Hey, I could write stuff on Tempest and Nonstop that would get me in big trouble over here, but it would still be true, and would demonstrate the security vulnerabilities involved. It would also be way outside the budgets of even the "black hats" who did not have government intelligence agency funding. Anyone can afford wi-fi, ALL who do are at risk...............I think that this was a well-intentioned tutorial.
4. Plastic warned about encryption levels and default passwords...........good points....."white hat" stuff I suppose?.......a bad guy/kiddie would not have bothered?
I guess that my feelings are "don't shoot the messenger just because the news is bad"
Just my personal views of course
Cheers
nihil.... thanks for the support my friend
I know I said I'd take this to PM but I need to post this to demonstrate that The3ntropy is _not_ the only person holding his view .Quote:
Originally posted here by Plastic
Personally, The3ntropy, I think you need to have a little bit more of an open mind on things... and step aside from the one-sided view you have on this.
I for one agree with most of his points.
[edit] missed out The3ntropy's name in the above bit - fixed now[/edit]
Since I was the first to neg him on his first tut on this subject, I guess I should say something.
First, and I don't believe I am doing this, but I have to take exception to what thehorse13 said
Poor analogy. Unfortunately this forum is not closed to just those interested in protecting their systems but is also available to crackers and cracker wanna-bes.Quote:
We don't put police in jail for sharing this knowledge between different agencies even though the information is highly detailed and describes exactly how to carry out the con.
But I do agree with his sentiments.
For the tutorial itself, I personally have these opinions:
1) I think it could have gone even further in depth
2) I think you should read steve.milner's first post again before writing another tutorial.
3) It wasn't that bad at all
As far as the subject, I think that WANs are one of the biggest mistakes and evils of the computer age. It grew out of not only the extreme greed of corporate executives who manufacture these devices and the arrogance of the developers of them, but of the lazy self-centered nature of the our current society which demanded them, all without a forethought or afterthought of the consequences.
ANYTHING that brings the problems into the public eye is welcome in my book.
And as far as the laws in the U.S. go, I think there is still much confusion and double standards; it is not legal for me to intercept tv satellite broadcast radio waves that enter my house without paying the broadcaster, but I can war drive?
[RANT]
Raise your hands everyone who thinks we don't have a large number of script kiddies visiting this site to see what they can find.......
While the content of this Tutorial may not have been news to many of us I can assure you that there are several that come here to whom this would have been, (remember Joe and Josephine)? They may have just installed a WLAN to connect their new laptop to their network, (they live in an apartment and they aren't allowed to drill holes in the walls), and they heard a friend say that these WLANs are really insecure.... So they come here to find out how they are insecure. This may then spur them on to find out how they can secure the WLAN..... and that, girls and boys, is why AO is here........ :eek:
As to the legality of wardriving.... It is legal in the US.... And what are you going to do about it anyway. If a cop stops me he has no clue what the laptop is doing and if he asks I can simply tell him it's my navigation system.... there's lots out there that work with a laptop. What happens if I am wardriving my own network and pick up my neighbors? Am I a bad person.... Hell no.....
Moving on..... If you install an unsecured WLAN and I detect it and utilize some of your bandwidth for non-illegal purposes will someone please explain what I did wrong!!!! The network is providing me with an address and connecting me to the Internet. I did nothing to make that connection except be in the right place when the network is up and running. So I go ahead and check my email..... Jeez, lighten up..... If you don't want "piggy-backers" then force the wardriver to take a positive action to get onto your network. If you _really_ don't want them then MAC filter and WEP the damn thing. Ya, I know... easy to crack.... But at least you know that the person using your bandwidth is likely to be using it for bad purposes and you can log all traffic on the WLAN to CYA.
It is the responsibility of those who utilize technology to ensure that their technology is safe and secure for the use of those it is intended for. It is not my responsibility to hold their hand nor to shy away if they provide me access at a time that I desire it. If they truly don't want a "piggybacker" they can do what I did when I started playing with high tech gadgetry.... I learned about it..... Simple as that......
AO is here for us all to use as a reference and a forum for discussion about computer security related issues. I've said it before and I'm going to say it again so those of you who yawn at repetition yawn away......... The art of security is the understanding of the threat.... Understand the threat and you understand the techniques to mitigate said threat..... Be unaware of the threat or mis-understand it and you are a disaster waiting to happen. Thus, Plastic's "this is how to wardrive" tutorial is a benefit to this community. Is it going to teach some little packet monkey how to wardrive your precious network? Probably..... But if you read the tutorial and understood it then you will have already secured the WLAN against him.... If you didn't then it is no fault but your own if you leave a totally unsecured WLAN swinging out there in the breeze......
If you holier than thou security guru's out there think that the censorship of information that may be critical to someone one day will benefit anyone you are severely mislead. I bet most of you don't cry so hard about Linux being Open Source Software..... Ah, but you are getting something for free there aren't you...... The principle is _exactly_ the same..... You all rave about the benefits of OSS...... Newflash: Security _has_ to be OS too or we all lose.
[/RANT]
Thank you for your time......