Let's try God.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxyloxley
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Let's try God.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxyloxley
lets not and say we did...:rolleyes::halo: (/stirs pot....big pot):DQuote:
Originally Posted by Moira
Hi Foxy you old scamp... the problem with that statement is we do and are. Everyyear theories advanced decades ago are proven or disproven and replaced.Quote:
maybe there's a bloody good reason WHY we can't explain / advance any further using science
Foxy I've said this before, but I do love your nick :D
Just to add more fuel to the fire, it seems more Americans believe in God rather than evolution than we might have been assuming (always said they were an intelligent race :) )
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17879317/site/newsweek/
Well here's the first problem:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
light years = distance
years = time
28 million light years = distance
14 million light years = distance
14 million years = time
The second, is that objects were closer durring the big bang, so there really is no reason why we need heat (energy) to tavel over the speed of light to heat the rest of the universe. It simply packed up some heat and moved out after childhood.
I never consider these kinds of questionaires reliable. IMO, I breaks down to this: if you ask someone whom consider themselves a God fearing/believing individual to choose between the Bible and science, they will choose the Bible no matter what they truely think. This is for a number of reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
Some Christians try to make evolution co-inside with their faith, but more and more simply choose not to go the difficult route of actually objectively justifying their beliefs or running the risk of exposing themselves to contrary evidence. It's alot easier just to curl into the fetal position and chant "jesus loves me".
Rubbish! I think the opposite - it's becoming harder and harder to admit to being a christian or have belief and faith. Just look at the reaction to me in this thread. It takes a brave person to actually come out and say, "yes, I believe in the bible, the trinity and in God". Much more socially inclusive to go down the evolution route.
In scientific middles, it is indeed easier to go down the "evolution route" - those who don't are being ridiculed by scientists. That, in my opinion, is the big lesson we (and especially Moira) should learn from this thread: you can believe all you want (as in: you're free to believe whatever you want), but - and I've said this before - expect to be ridiculed by the scientific community if you try to apply your "science" to religion.
The "reaction to [you] in this thread" is mainly due because of your trying to apply scientific concepts of which you have little to no knowledge (it's very obvious that you do not even understand the basic fundamental principles of evolution; the million/billion "typo" is another great example), rather than a reaction to your belief system.
Rubbish! You simply confirm all I've said. And all along, I don't believe the message of creation is a complex one, indeed it wasn't intended to be that way, only to be understood by the most superior and learned of minds. It's a simple message that anyone can understand and grasp. It's not about understanding science - it's hard to explain, it's about opening up your mind and freeing it of all the materialistic junk in there that's holding back true revelation and thought. Anyone can do that - it's a message that the least educated simpleton can believe in and understand at the level they can relate most appropriately to.
I openly say that. I did in this thread and have in others, I don't get attacked over it though. You can't make everyone believe what you do as someone is always going to try and say you're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
For example, Neg and I are pretty tight friends, we disagree on quite a few things, but we don't attack each other or go saying the other is an idiot. I know Neg isn't going to just change instantly what he feels is correct, and I'm quite sure he knows I stand by what I Believe.
If you really want to mess with him say Emacs or Vim are teh pwnz0r and Word sucks lol. (Sorry Neg I'm playful today considering the hang over).
It's rubbish, yet it confirms all you've said?
So creationism is true because even you can understand it?
Your dissing me is rubbish and it confirms my beliefs in how hard today it is to be a christian :) that's sort of what I meant.
It's not hard unless you count the people who see those guys on TV saying to send them money and how everything is bad.
Sometimes Iw onder if they've read the Bible and just misunderstood it. Sort of like how Muslims of the world try to make a point of saying they don't agree with terror. Just because some are doesn't mean they all are.
For example, I listen to death metal, Punk, things like Slayer, Acid Bath, Cannibal Corpse, and even some Black Metal, and watch movies that most people couldn't handle because of violence and gore, in fact I love those movies.
But I Believe in God. Some people say it doesn't make sense because of what I call entertainment, but usually that's because they see people on TV who get a Church to protest when Marilyn Manson would play shows or when some other heavy kind of band would play.
I personally think it's bull as I clearly remember it saying that Judgement is God's job, NOT ours.
The groups protesting movies and music are the ones that make it hard for the rest of us who aren't trying to tell everyone they're going to hell, which as I said, that's for God to decide, not a person on TV saying it.
May fav band is The Misfits, and I also like Danzig's solo work, and Rammstein. Danzig isn't exactly a choir boy (Whooo, is that an understatement) and Rammstein aren't either. But, It's MUSIC.
If I don't like a song they make because of what it says, I switch to another song. For example Rammstein, I don't listen to Engel. He says a few things in both the German and English version I find offensive, so I don't listen to it.
Just like Danzig some of the things he writes are offensive to me, so I listen to a different song.
Hell, hallf my CD collection is probably on a list somewhere of "Warning to parents".
Specially when I got in trouble in high school for bringing my CD to school of Exhumed - GORE METAL.
As for the horror and gore and splatter movies people talk badly about, well, to me a horror movie is generally Christian. The bad and evil guys ALWAYS lose, and it's usually in a fairly bloody way.
Unfortunately, the problem with this is the "Church" over the past 1700 odd yrs has given a lot of people reason to be cynical, they haven't alway's been Holy if you know what I mean, and unfortunately bad press sticks around longer then good press, no one wants to hear about the charities but they do want to hear about the Priests who molest children...it's called "PR" and the Church has failed in this area badly. I believe most clear thinking individuals today are moving away from the Church and it's teachings because of this mentality of it's, if its not in Gods name then it's evil type attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
I respect other's in their chosen beliefs, whether it's Buddhism or Islam or Sikh, what I don't respect is Born again Christian's trying to convert me, because I don't proscribe to their beliefs, I believe Religion should be private and personal, and can be done from the home rather then a Church, why does there have to be a meeting or coming together, where is God's house? if you believe in God, then his/her house is everywhere.So in this regard, if I want to offer a prayer, I can do it from the loo...
Humanity is evolving and the Catholic Church is being left behind, some of it's programs do not sit well with 21st century reality.
But as can be seen from this thread, individuals will always have opinions, and may feel their's is the right one, but as I learned early on in public, there are 3 areas of conversation that can be a minefield.....Religion/politics and my Mum jk:D actually the 3rd escapes me, but there is one, and someone will be along shortly to point it out for me...I am sure...:halo:
I agree, "the church" has a lot to answer for in many respects. However, if you agree with the bible's message, then it is the duty of christians to make sure everyone has the chance to hear about God and to that end, talking to others about faith and hoping to find a glimmer of interest is not wrong. There are many advantages of worshiping with fellow christians and getting to know like minded people.
That is not to say banging on to uninterested people like some vegetarian is the right way forward either. But don't knock works like the Gideon bible, no the efforts of people to spread it as widely as possible.
moria: 30% of americans still think bush is somthing other than an incompitant, criminal, dolt. lets not base an argumetn on facts by what americans believe...there are plenty of mouthbreatehrs in this country.
moria its not hard to be a christian in this country...msot americans are chirstian. its hard to be a fundimentalist wackjob whos brain is stuck in the middle ages. Unfortunitly that problem is a personal issue, so quit tryign t ochange every one else to fix your problems.
And at least 30% of people (including you) spell my name wrong :D
dalk...at least in the US teh catholics are nto the problem...the issue is the dominists, mostly pentocastal, but a fair number of southern baptists as well.....the world would be much better off if we could jsut exterminate the lot of them.
it would be fully legal, the punishment for treason is execution, the domininists have as a stated goal replaceing the constitution with biblical law...they want a theocracy...these are the nut jos tryign to rewrite history to pretend that the US is a "christian" nation(the founding fatehrs, and the first congress stated other wise in national and international legal documantation.) trying to get rid of science education and replace it with biblical crap. the penticoatals are the biggist threat to our american way of life that we have ever faced, they have allready subverted the sourthen baptist convention and the republican party. you want a good read as to why they are a danger to us all read theocracywatch.org
you want to see how these authority worshiping sheepeoples minds work read http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ (the book an the athoritarian personality type, written by a Libertarian professor)
I fell taht anymember of this american taliban dersrves nothing but dirasion, they should be treated with nothign but contempt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
typical of teh biggoted idiocy I woudl expect form a tratorious dominionist. pick on the guy with a disability. you truly are scumm
Easy bballad, there are only a few of us older members know your Dyslexic.
Cheers:
This issue is personal - in your case. So quit carrying that massive chip on your own shoulder to take issue with the speck on someone else's.Quote:
Originally Posted by bballad
No, I didn't know anything about your dyslexia and why should I? You asked for the response you got by your treatment of me - in fact I tried to make a joke out of something that I would have been justified in finding offensive.
Does this forum not have an ignore button? Maybe I should suggest it in the appropriate section.
Djm the problems with Moira is deeper then that, jsut one more useless dominioist giveign americans and christians a bad name, push theocracy down every ones throats. atacking knowladge any chance they have. hell I'll give Moira the benifit of the doubt, perhpas its not wilfullness perhaps its just willfull ignorance, selfritiousness and bigotry....so take your pick decite or willfull stupidity neither is worthy of respect.
I kind of agree with Moira and the reactions to this post kind of fuel her belief. And I am not a Chrisitan, I would rather be dancing around a fire right now with my flippy hangin' out while downing a jug of mead and ... well that should just stop right there.Quote:
Rubbish! I think the opposite - it's becoming harder and harder to admit to being a christian or have belief and faith. Just look at the reaction to me in this thread. It takes a brave person to actually come out and say, "yes, I believe in the bible, the trinity and in God". Much more socially inclusive to go down the evolution route.
There's believing and there's "selling."
I believe in a God that follows the Christian teachings more than any others. I'm not on street corners trying to convert others. If someone asks my faith, I'll tell him/her. If that person wants a dialog, great. If that person wants to attack, I move on.
There are a few overwhelmingly personal choices in life: religion (or not), sexual preference, Yankees or Red Sox etc etc. And if you can't face the slings and arrows you best not tell other people your beliefs.
It doesn't take any courage to believe in anything, this is free will. You can keep it to yourself if you want.
I believe that I'll hit the lottery even though I know there are huge odds against me. It won't be divine, I'm not wasting my time praying for it.
Go Yankees!
fourdc there is beleiving in god and then there is being a reborn idiot. do you think the bible is to be taken literaly? do you feel that the bible is the one "true" source of all knowladge? Look these dopes are attacking all learning, we see the attacks on big bang and evelution because they are relitivly new feilds that most people have trouble wraping their heads around. they are also attacking heliocentrisim (the sun the center of the solar system), round earth thory, carbon dateing..ect ect. They want to replace knowladge with ignorance, science with vodo, personal faith with mandate top down beleifes. To someone liek Moria you probably wouldn't qualify as a christian.
The bible, particularly the Old Testament, and Revelation in the New Testament is very symbolic and difficult to understand without study.
Bballad,
A lot of people wouldn't consider me a Christian either. I'm not evangelical, being born once was enough for me, I don't have to make peace with my God, I've never lost it.
All learning is good. Even reading the "banned" material. Seek to understand, then seek to be understood.
Being in church/temple/mosque makes a person no more religious than standing in a garage makes a person a car
Excellent comment. Now if you stand in my garage, you "might" become a beer. ;)Quote:
Being in church/temple/mosque makes a person no more religious than standing in a garage makes a person a car
Observe:
Opinnion regarding the rationale of most "Believers":
Religous person goes the tough route and tries to justify religion with science (coinsides with opinnion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Moo
Summation of a long list of scientifc disprovals of religous person's theory:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
Religous person fails to justify religons pretense objectively and becomes mildly beligerant. Goes on the immediate defensive while reverting to core faith regardless of evidence:Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative
Evil Moo's opinnion supported in real time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
I was going to give my several reasons for having this opinnion, but I realize that I didn't need to go into them after all.
Moira:
The same is true if an athiestic person where in a chapel. AO consists of highly technical and scientifically minded people. Picking battles is important, but so is choosing your battleground.
SO if you accept the testimants as symbolic why are they at odds with big bang or eveolution? OR do *YOU* get to pick and choose which parts are literal and which are symbolic...the few PHD's in thology I have talked with tend ot agree that the old testimaet(espicaly genisis) is leftovers form the polythistic period of the isrialites.
bballad, like yourself, I do not see that there is a fundamental contradiction between Christianity and evolution. We know that evolution happens..........we have evidence. That does not mean that the overall mechanism wasn't created? OK it doesn't mean that it was, either :)
As for the literature................. a lot of the Old Testament is pure historical accounts with little or no religion?............those parts I would consider to be "literal" in so far as history books can be (they tie in with accounts from other cultures). I would argue that the Old Testament is monotheastic rather than polytheastic, right from the book of Genesis.
Yes, you do have to choose what you believe............it isn't a "one stop shop", nor is it mandatory for what I would consider to be "mainstream Christians"
Nihil is correct. Evolution doesn't disprove God, it only shows that the Bible's authors were fallible. Based soley on the bias that we see in many history books, the Bible's authors were probably just as biased (imo).
If I were to use the Bible in any capacity, I would use it as a reference to the culture/beliefs of the time period. Just remember that if you use the Bible to support your beliefs, be prepared for those of a different mindset to use it against your beliefs.
Heh, who wanted a battle? The idea was just to stimulate a discussion, I'm not looking for a war :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Moo
That statement would be true if you had stuck to your original statement and didn't change the nature of the thread into a defense of Christianity when offered evidence refuting that claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
I agree with everything this guy has to say on the matter. Other than I don't think you have to make a choice that Jesus either is really the savior or a hack.
If you can use the don't take it so literal stance on the old testament I think you can easily do the same thing with the new testament.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/col...ary/index.html
Errrrr, you do if you want to be a Christian ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mohaughn
Not really............the Old Testament covers several thousand years............the New Testament covers 33 years, and contains no history lessons.Quote:
If you can use the don't take it so literal stance on the Old Testament I think you can easily do the same thing with the New Testament.
In the case of the New Testament it is more a case of interpretation and application to modern social scenarios.................. as we know "Jesus spoke in parables" :D
Did I hell do that!! I merely responded when attacked for my beliefs :fpissed: I'm not complaining - I set myself up for it I agree, by starting the thread in the first place, but please don't say the fact it turned into a heated discussion was ALL my fault :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Moo
Moira,
"Credo in unum Deum, sanctificatur nomen Tuam, adveniat regnum Tuam.........................."
I didn't respond to Mohaughn completely..................
I understood (I think) what you were saying, but would phrase it very differently. I think that if you believe in the existence of Jesus, then the questions should be:Quote:
That jesus is really the Saviour or a hack
1. Was he the Son of God?
2. Was he a prophet of God?
3. Was he a fake?
Well, let's look at it?
1. The Christians believe in #1 and #2.
2. The Christians, Moslems and the majority of Jews believe in #2
3. Others would say "yes" to #3 (remember I have excluded those who don't believe that he even existed)
I realise that there are those who would take an agnostic stance as to the existence of Jesus, but I don't see any point in complicating things?
Incidentally, believing in a God or Gods is a far different thing from Christianity ;) Creationism is not the sole prerogative of Christians, Moslems and Jews either..............as a concept it predates all those religions.
Have a happy Easter folks :)