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Hi Pooh,Quote:
Originally posted here by Pooh-Bear
Gotta agree.. in what way are we talking about religion? do we include faith?
Well, I would say Christianity is not a religion it is a relationship of trust with a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what faith is, a relationship of trust with God. Religion is what people try to do the reach God-- keeping rules and performing rituals that they think will earn them favor with him. Faith is trusting in him.
QUOTE]But the Bible says "There is a way that seems right to a man, but it ends in death." Today it seems increasingly unfashionable to talk about matters of right and wrong when it comes to religious beliefs.[/B][/QUOTE]
What I am getting at is that right Vs wrong is very subjective. If you are likely to read the bible and take it's contents at face value, then maybe your idea of what is right is very different from somebody who does not necessarily believe everything they read, but rather carry a degree of skepticism that gets them to do more research on what they believe is right or wrong.
Personally I have a hard time believing everything from a text that claims a man lived 600 years and a woman could bear 99 children in an age when average life expectancy was under 45 years of age and child birth was one of the leading causes of death in women at the time.
I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong here. I'm merely stating that right and wrong is subject to interpretation, as is your bible. Your quote "There is a way that seems right to a man, but it ends in death." to me, means that there is no one "right way" that regardless of the decision that is made, death is the only certainty. And I'm sure there are different interpretations as well.
In truth, organised religion has often stood as an obstactle on the path to God. The 'power of the pulpit' has, and in some cases still does (jihad as an obvious example), held sway over the minds of men for centuaries. But the problem is that 'men of God' are also just men.
And so over the centuaries our respective religions have taught us to hate and sent us to kill in the name of the same god who proclaimed it a sin. The 100 year war, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, the policy of non-involvement by the catholic church in the holocost and modern day Jihad are all examples of what I mean. No; my covenant is with god and with God alone. I do not feel the need for the intermediary of a religion to realise the responsibilities that this covenant places upon me.
I was raised as a protestant, went to a catholic school, married a jewish girl and live in a moslem area. I have worked nationally and internationally. The God I believe in would not want me to be anything less than cordial to the good people that I have met, regardless of which direction they face to commune with Him.
Which given that we are mostly all sons and daughters of Abraham this is often the same actual god, just with different ceremony and tradition. The basic message is the same. (judaism, christianity (of all flavours) and islam all share these common roots). People seem to forget that.
I think Jesus Christ summed it up best when he said:Private Joke, sorry ->(Dieses irgendjemandes für Sie Victor. Alle bezogen richtig!)Quote:
"I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
From The "Scholars' Translation" of the Gospel of Thomas
by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer
http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
It's not about being in church on a Sunday (or sinagouge on a Friday ;)) - it's about being good to your fellow man on a daily basis.
Hmm,
actually the Gospel of Thomas has never been accepted as the words of Jesus by most Christians. It was written by a sect caled the Gnostics. They denied that Jesus actually had a material body. And the religions you mentioned, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism do have similarities. But they also have some great differences in how they teach we have a relationship with God. How can all of them be right?
Neither religion has to be right. I was raised a Roman Catholic and do not participate in the Catholic church any longer. That does not mean that I don't have a belief in God, just not the "God" my religion taught me. I believe that God is representative of ourself and our attempts to find happiness in life. He does not guide us, we choose our paths, He does not save us, we choose our paths. He is an abstract being, designed to assist us when we think of death, to believe it is not the end. A comfort if you will.Quote:
all religions cannot be right. The only way they could all right is if they say they same thing, and clearly they don't. For example, Christianity says that salvation comes by grace (God's unmerited favor freely bestowed on those who throw themselves on God's mercy). Islam says that good works are required to obtain salvation. Those are two mutually exclusive opinions. Therefore, one must be right and the other must be wrong.
Religions are right for the individual who believes in them. Much the same as beliefs about marriage differ all over the world, so do the beliefs in religion.
I think each person decides for themselves which is the "correct" religion and many choose to have no religion. All of them are the right choices for each individual. I don't think it is something that is blanket right or wrong.
hehe! One of my favorite subjects! :)
Satanism is (from what I understand because I have a few friends who used to be Satanists), is the "religion" or belief that one is their own god. It teaches the raising up of one's self above all (thus serving self rather than God). It is interesting to note that this is the same thing that Lucifer did (right before God gave him the boot, that is).
Jesus made the statement that we could have one of two masters. Many believe that one is God and the other is the Devil (Baal, Lucifer, Satan, etc). I don't believe this is the case. I believe he was talking about the choice of serving God or serving self (which is what Lucifer did to get himself in trouble).
On another remark that was made, the Catholic church came after the early Church of the apostles. Actually, the Early Church came to be known as the Cathlic church much later. The two definately should not be confused. One was free and open while the other was very controling and veiled in secrecy.
To offset the very first comment (which I must do in all fairness), just how many denominations does the "Christian" Church have? I think you will be interested to note their differences in beliefs as well (I've been in and out of a LOT of them, and I should know). Does that mean that not all Christianity leads to God?
I hate to use such a cliche example, but remember the story of the seven blind men with the elephant? One thought it was a barrel, the other a snake, etc...
Personally, I believe that all religions (even those that teach the servitude to self) will lead to God. However, my impression (for myself) is that I don't want to be standing on the wrong side of the picket line on that "great day" if you know what I mean... :)
Just a thought or two...
Rev
Well, a couple of thoughts.
If you think or believe that anything subjective such as religion can be correct or incorrect, you probably shouldn't be discussing it. An idea can be good or bad, relative to a person's beliefs, but a subjective thing cannot be correct or incorrect (right or wrong). I may say something feels wrong to me, but that is merely a statement of good/bad relative to me.
The differences between Islam and Christianity and Judaism are fringe differences. Those differences are in the presentation, not the pudding itself. If you want to be arrogant and believe that only YOUR religion can be right, perhaps you should just go somewhere else, because that kind of boorish arrogance is exactly what caused tragedies like the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust, etc..
Being that the most dangerous kind of mind is a closed one (which I agree with completely because no single religion is completely right IMHO)...
Points to ponder:
1. The Cruisades were caused by the Catholic church's greed for power (which it was beginning to lose at the time).
2. The Inquisition was caused by the Catholic Church's greed for power (which it was seriously loosing at the time).
3. As for the Holocoust... I'm sure it's going to be because of someone's greed for power (aren't most wars?)
4. The focus of Christianity(as it was berthed): To have a relationship with a living God through Jesus Christ.
5. The focus of Judiasm(as it was berthed): To have (or continue in) a covenant with God.
6. The focus of Islam(as it was berthed): To be found in favor with God.
No religion calls for warfare with another religion (and yes, that includes Islam, so Thilly Thadam was way off track on that one). The Catholic Church definately screwed up on that as well (greed does that to people if they let it). The Jews just stayed ticked off because they kept getting slaughtered, enslaved, and then finally their boarders were recognized by the UN (which is probably the best thing that's happened for them to date).
All three religions have to do with one true God... It only makes sense that they all lead to the same one, right?
So in a sense you're right... It's just a matter of what one believes. What I believe I know is right for me. Of course I can only say that for me because I have no right to judge (that's against my religion). :)
Cheers!
Rev
I have never heard this perspective from a Muslim before. Bimmer you know just as I do, that the Qu-ran has many many verses condeming the Jewish people and their belifes. So Save your apologetics on that situation. I have read the Qu-ran. The truth cannot be hidden. I know how the Islamic state feels about Jews and Christians. I have spoken with Muslim Preists, they say that there is a war between faiths, not nations. Which makes them think every Palestinian that attacks the public goes to heaven. This is not the case. No-one goes to heaven for being a patriot.Quote:
Question...
I only read the first three chapters or so of the Qu-ran, so mayhaps someone can "enlighten" me on this...
From the first few chapters I read, I came to the conclusion that Muslims believe Jews and Christians to be like "brothers" in that they both served the same God. I seem to remember some comments about how the Jews had "missed" it because they refused to recognize Jesus at all while the Christians "missed" it because they believed that Jesus was God on Earth (which, even though I'm a Christian, I have to disagree with as well). The Qu-ran stated that Jesus was like a divine prophet, or a great spiritual leader (I don't remember exactly which, but it's something along those lines)...
My question is simply this... If both the Jews and Christians are as brothers (although deceived), then why the condemnation (or religous warfare)? If someone can PM me (it's really kind of off-subject here) where those condemnations are, then perhaps I can get an idea of where the lines are being drawn.
Every religion has it's wierdos (SayDamn, David CoreDump, etc...), but those are pretty far out exceptions... For the most part, I'm speaking of mainstreams in each religion. Writings are inturrepreted differently by different people. Fame, power, greed, money, and wierdos can do some pretty awesome damage to any sect of society (religous or not).
Curious,
Rev