Hell- we didn't need any rights anyway, right?

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I think we would have seen more immediate attacks without the current administration.

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I think we would have seen the patriot act, and the iraq war without 9/11 with this current administration

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Both statements are arguably true and not mutually exclusive. I would tend to agree more with BBallad's hypothesis than RoadClosed's, but that's just my opinion.

Its not as if Bin Laden, or terrorists in general (McVeigh included) didn't operate during the Clinton era as well. They had already tried to bomb WTC once. Perhaps they would have attacked sooner under a more miltarily lax Democratic leader.

If Vegas were laying odds though I would definitely put money down that this regime would have found some way to justify the PATRIOT Act and attacking Iraq with or without a 9/11 attack. Their attitude and actions in all other areas of government and foreign policy would seem to support this hypothesis.

That's my $.02 - not sure what the deflation rate is here in Michigan...Tiger Shark??

Tony: You've got me with the 2c comment.... Since I live less than 2 miles from you I have to be really careful...... ;)

You use of the word "regime" to describe your own government goes an awful long way to defining your attitude here, republican or democrat. Since you chose to characterize your own government that way in a democratic society I'm afraid it's hard to take anything else you say seriously though your points are often well thought out and spelled correctly..... :p

Ask yourself this question. George Bush will be out of power in no more than 5 years. How, exactly, is GWB himself going to benefit from being able to look into yours or my mundane little lives?

I say he won't gain a damned thing.......

To be honest- part of the reason I tend to refer to regimes and administrations is that I don't feel the President himself is all that powerful.

Don't get me wrong- he has the power to make some extremely huge decisions that affect this country and the entire globe. BUT, there is too much information to take in and too many things to know- its a team effort.

When they say "Bush released his budget for 2004" - how much of the budget do you think Bush actually sat down and wrote? Did he even LOOK at it- or was he just briefed on the highlights?

When "Bush" does this or that- it is usually a whole team of people- not Bush. In my opinion, there are "underlings" in D.C. who are lifers- they watch Presidents come and they watch Presidents go. They are the ones with the connections and the power. I don't mean to come off like a conspiracy theorist- I just mean that if you spend 30 years on Capitol Hill you gain a lot more power than 1 4-year term.

So, that said, my answer to the last half of your thing is that GWB may not gain anything personally. His gains will be the financial gains he makes through the cronyism he is implementing in his Iraq rebuilding project. But, the government at large will be more than happy to retain their newly awarded power if "we the people" don't keep them honest and make sure those expiration dates are stuck to.

It has been used time and time again, but Benjamin Franklin's quote is VERY valid in these days and times: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

Tony: I'll point you back to page 2 of this discussion where I said:

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These are strange times in the world, they call for strange measures. Understand that and ensure that the strange measures of today do not become the governmental habits of tomorrow. When the time is right again you have the opportunity to vote in the people that will return your rights - if they don't - vote them right back out again.

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You see.... We agree.... We just like to walk around the houses a few times before we get there...... ;)

I guess that is the point we disagree on tiger. I do not see these as strang times we live in...it looks more like busniess as useual to me.

Jeez BBallad...... I guess you forgot 9/11, the 1993 WTC bombing, the USS Cole attack, the Bali bombing, the Jakarta bombing, (my brother lives down the street), the bombing of 2 US embassies simultaneously in Africa..... Do I need to go on?

These _are_ strange times, especially for the USA.... You Americans _still_ do not know what terrorism means.... You have experienced 2 attacks on your homeland by foreigners and 1 or 2 by your own people. If you do not prepare now you will suffer what so many other nations have suffered in the past, a concerted, well organized, well funded terrorist organisation that hits the heart of your country any time it pleases. I get the feeling you are a bit of a whiner now..... I can't begin to imagine how insufferable you would be if this became a daily occurrence where your ability to walk around downtown is restricted by either your own fear or the restrictions placed upon you for your own safety.

BBallad, I accept that we have to suffer people of your ilk in every society..... You just have to understand that it becomes quite tiring trying to educate you about subjects you either don't care to grasp or are unable to. I get a distinct feeling that you have never ventured further from your home than Canada or Mexico... Hell, most Americans seem to believe the world ends at the "left" or the "right" coast..... NewsFlash: There's a whole bunch more.... and it's bigger even than the USA.... and there are a lot more people there with beliefs you don't even start to get....

Travel a bit..... see some of the world.... Then come back and take a look at your administration through something other than those $h1T colored glasses you are wearing.... The USA is a paradise compared to most "regimes", (yes, a poke at Tony.... :eek: ).

Then we can talk.... Until then, BBallad, you are simply the white noise of the country that has pampered your @$$ since birth.......

But..... In the true values of your country and your constitution I would stand up and die, (even in my advancing years), for your right to be the white noise...... It's what makes your country great..... appreciate it!

While not singling out those persons mentioned in this quote, the statement (and the rest of Tiger's post) is very true to 99.99 percent of Americans and very well put.

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You just have to understand that it becomes quite tiring trying to educate you about subjects you either don't care to grasp or are unable to. I get a distinct feeling that you have never ventured further from your home than Canada or Mexico... Hell, most Americans seem to believe the world ends at the "left" or the "right" coast..... NewsFlash: There's a whole bunch more.... and it's bigger even than the USA.... and there are a lot more people there with beliefs you don't even start to get....

Travel a bit..... see some of the world.... Then come back and take a look at your administration through something other than those $h1T colored glasses you are wearing.... The USA is a paradise compared to most "regimes", (yes, a poke at Tony.... ).

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A vacation on a tour bus doesn't count. ;)

Why do so many ppl come to America and bitch about americans??? Aparently they dont mind being pampered any more than the "americans" do!!!!

3000 people died in a TERRORIST ATTACK and I wish you could tell all of their famalies that we "dont know what terrorism means".

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Why do so many ppl come to America and bitch about americans??? Aparently they dont mind being pampered any more than the "americans" do!!!!

3000 people died in a TERRORIST ATTACK and I wish you could tell all of their famalies that we "dont know what terrorism means".

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You shouldn't even go there dude. The U.K. has lived with weekly and sometimes daily bombings from the IRA. Israel considers terrorism as much a daily part of their life as baseball and a morning cup of coffee.

I'm not trying to compare or say "our terrorism is better than their terrorism" but Tiger Shark has a definite point. I am sure the families of those who died miss them dearly, but I am also sure they are glad they live here in America where these things AREN'T daily occurrences and hopefully never will be.

Americans are brash, cocky and arrogant by any other standard around the world. We are one of the only nationalities with the balls to walk into a cafe in Paris or a merchant shop in Bangkok and give them attitude if they don't speak English and take American cash.

Take a tip from Tiger Shark- grow up and go see the world before making such statements. Don't go on cruises or arranged vacations. Go into the real country where the real people live where they don't speak English and don't accept American money.

Tiger Shark was not trying to downplay or minimize the events of 9/11- he was trying to illustrate just how great we have it here in America and how so many *******s take it for granted or like it is owed to them rather than understanding the price that has to be paid and the effort it takes to have the liberties and freedom we have.

Americans work at Walmart for $7 an hour and have the audacity to get pissed off at "immigrants" for owning all the Dunkin Donuts or party stores or gas stations. It is sad that the immigrants know more about achieving the "American Dream" than most Americans do.

Get off your blindly patriotic soap box and get a clue.

Roadclosed: I agree.... Vacation buses do not count.... Never been on one and never will go on one..... You see nothing but the flashing past of a culture you will never understand during the few hours you will be taken to a willing restuarant or nightclub in a willing town of their chosing..... Take the train, the local bus.... Grab a cab and ask "where is a good place to eat? Would you like to join us?" That gets you where you see the people, the culture, the nation as a whole..... It's a ton more fun and you learn things about people..... So cool.....

Webwurm: I'm not sure where you stand with your post..... I came to America and the only bitching I do about Americans is about how they denigrate their own society with no knowledge of how bad it could be. For that, I am guilty.... I do not apologize..... sorry.

As to the "3000 people died"...... I agree, it is the worst terrorist attack in history. No single attack has been more devastating - especially to a country that is not used to terrorism - that simply makes it worse. But in the bigger picture, many countries have suffered far greater losses all told..... That does not take away from America's loss, (and do remember there were Canadians, British, French, Arabs, Jews, Africans etc. etc. that died that day too.... never forget them either.... they deserve the same respect, and I apologise if I did not mention a reader's country or race.... There were so many of so many nations and races that the whole world should be on the offensive..... But that is a different subject....). But, I can still say, with confidence, that the citizens of the USA do not know what terrorism means...... A couple of attacks, years apart does not make a terrorist offensive..... Wait until you get searched going into your K-Mart by large gentlemen with metal detectors while you are covered by other gentlemen with guns..... It was like that in Belfast for years and years..... I was there, married to a gal from the Shankhill Road..... 150 yards from the "peace line".... a 30' high corrugated iron fence so we couldn't see them and they couldn't see us...... 'Cos some numbskull would start shooting..... can't shoot what he can't see......

<trying desparately to stay on topic>

That's "erosion" of civil rights..... So they can look at my posts here and my emails and they can find out that I actually have sex with my girlfriend by searching my house without a warrant..... Oh dear..... Trust me - if there was something I wanted to hide their silly little Patriot Act they would not find it..... Why? I learned the art from the terrorists I "played soldiers" against for so many years..... They were good at it.... that's why they survived in a very small country for so long..... and they are still there..... That's why the Patriot Act, while being important in this country's history is still "small potatoes"..... It's too easy to beat if you want to and in the end, you - The People - can vote out the people who want to keep it in!!!!! It's not just your right, it's your responsibility, your duty - to uphold the constitution of this country the way the founding fathers wrote it - with honesty, humility and a sense of what is right.

Did I rant a little too long???? Sorry folks.... I feel strongly about this..... You will be returned to normal programming as soon as possible.... :p