*shrug*
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*shrug*
I have no problems "dealing" in my personal pervasive (as in perversion) habits. I love them.Quote:
You're "normal"....deal with it....
It was a point. The catch all, there is no answer. To know this, is to know god. To know this is to know the cosmos. To know this is to know humanity. Some-how I think we'll get there. Have patience I say. As for modern scientific facts, there are studies that conclude all answers, depending on the puppet master. One says it's a "life style choice" and they parade around those who have achieved non-gayness in rightous allegory. Always they fall back into pergatory and partake in the apple. To the distain of their flock. There are those who claim specific regions of the brain respond to homo-stimuli. No ****, it's a brain - it responds. This is an isolation of some specific brain mapping that heteros don't have. Duh. Map it out and prove inconclusively that a region of the brain stimulates homo-ertotic response and I will probably say hey, that image of a murder mapped a response, am I crazy?
But them what would I know, I masterbate too much, probably. Our social destiny is pleasure. Perhaps that is the answer? We seek our pleasure destination and that is it.
My issue? Tolerance definition and then lack of on both side. ... Stealing culture for personal vanity and the like. Peace.
RoadCloased, what the hell does all the above mean, can you translate to English, please.
Are you telling me i masterbate to much? it is only once a day. Ok maybe twice if my hand looks real horny :)
Alright, I've read a few pages of this and I can't stand to read the rest.
All I've seen is this black and white discussion. What if it's different for everybody. Some people are genetically disposed towards homosexuality, some people get it from environment, some take a bit of both.
Life is not black and white. Life is not clear cut. Humans are not logical.
Me, I've decided to become a Vulcan.
Is this the gene that allows a gay to spot another gay across a crowded bar ? .......... otherwise called Gay Radar 'Gaydar' ?Quote:
This is an isolation of some specific brain mapping that heteros don't have.
Bollox: genetically I can live with, but Environmental Variables ?Quote:
Some people are genetically disposed towards homosexuality, some people get it from environment,
What about the proverbial Royal Navy ?
Men in very close proximity to other men, for months at a time.
Sometimes there has to be a release ...............
But come shore leave, your ass is safe in any port on that day .......
And from the Royal Marines: [the Navy's soldiers]
These loons have 'Naked Bar' as their last night celebration after winning the coveted Green Beret. Order from the training staff [who are also there ] is NAKED BAR .....
10 seconds later the bar / barracks wherever, is full of naked Marines ........
And these guys have an answer to the gay question:
Marines don't like to take showers with men.
Who LIKE taking showers with men.
I probably should say something since me and JP have gone at it before where he said I was a bigot.
I called JP a Fag. Well, he assumed I meant gay. Fag is what some people call a Cigarrette, and some people call those, "Butts".
So I called JP an ass and he assumed I meant Homo.
I've got nothing against gay people, but JP you can be a real ******* sometimes.
I'm Christian, does this mean I HAVE to hate gays? My Uncle is gay, I don't hate him, a few others are too, and I don't hate them. I have gay friends I don't hate. I have Lesbian friends that said if they weren't tuna only they'd totally rape me.
Maybe I am cool like that? I remember JP saying no gay man would ever want me unless it was "One of those bear man queers" or something like that. I guess I'm too ugly for JP t consider anything but a leftover for the breeders?
JP you did misunderstand me. I called you things and talked about you being gay, why? Because you said things about straight people. I only give what you gave. Reversed.
Like when you said straight people can't design web sites. Well, that's why I brought that up when you and me Argued. I'm not a bigot, I'm a human being. Personally I';m not gay or "Bi" but I don't think it's my business what goes in your ass either.
I don't think it's a thing that has to have a "cure", I think it's YOU. You are who you are, no matter what you try to be.
JP, I will not engage in a flame war with you, and I'd much appreciate it if we could continue an intellectual debate, as I have found this to be a fascinating discussion. If we start flaming, the topic's going to die a premature death when there's so much here for us to explore, and that would truly be a shame. Let's not go there. I respect your stance. I do not agree with it, but I do both respect and understand where you're coming from. Yet I'm a bigot?
Flame wars only show a lack of the intellect necessary to debate civilly. Might be fun for the kids, but I have no time or patience for such nonsense. I want to see that genius mind of yours at work here, JP.
Ok, so back to the points at hand:
1) Your science community is to be taken seriously, granted, but only to a point. These organizations are just as politically driven as they are fact-driven, so I do not entirely trust them. Honestly JP, if someone found actual facts to the contrary (hypothetically speaking, mind you), do you really think they'd be expected? Realisticly now. No, the political string-pullers would use their influence, because fact or no fact, it's politcally incorrect. This is perhaps the biggest flaw in the science community.
2) Think about what you're saying. Ex-gays as they're known are morally wrong for their choice to change their lifestyle? This strikes me as ironic, because to me you sound just as preachy as the tv evangelist, and it also seems to me that you're subjecting your values on them. Surely this is not your intention, but is this not the bigotry you so despise?
3) I wholeheartedly agree that homosexuality is NOT an illness. To an extent, there is a choice. To another extent, there is evidence that perhaps there is a genetic tendancy as well. But yes, an illness that does not make.
4) A logic point: Your argument is based upon the foundation that we cannot deny our preprogrammed nature. This, then, would be a pretty universal truth, would it not? Ok, then let's discuss my nature. Let we christians not pretend to have a fake holiness -- by my nature, I want to have sex with every hot girl I see. I feel the urge every time one walks by. And let me tell you, I have sinfully lusted more times than I can possibly count. So, by your logic as stated thus far, I am morally wrong to deny my nature -- therefore, I have commited an immoral act by not trying to have sex with every hot girl I find, for I am denying myself and lying to myself, trying to be something I'm not. Now, does that not sound just a tad silly to you?
5) A respect in difference of belief: You don't want to become an ex-gay, and that's fine. No one should try to make you. But respect those who have decided to go that route. It's their belief, and they're entitled to it, and they deserve not to be belittled by you or anyone else for doing it. They're not lying to themselves, they're making a choice -- a very difficult, painful choice that requires bravery.
Now, are we suffering some miscommunication? You guys seem to respond as if I'm trying to change you. I could hardly be so arrogant. Why was this thread started? To gain insight and understanding of another's belief apart from your own. I'm trying to give you a better understanding of mine -- nothing more, nothing less. This is not bigotry; this is sharing and relating to one another, crossing boundaries to discuss differences. Let us seek to understand each other and our differences. You resent being judged for questioning religion; I would resent being judged for questioning homosexuality. Let us avoid double standards.
Donkeypunch -- You bring up good questions about religion. I would encourage you to start another thread on that if you'd like to open dialogue on the topic. It would make for an interesting discussion no doubt.
JP -- If there's one thing I would like to change about you -- it's your perspective about us. If I can show you that we're not all the same within the realm of religion, I will be quite content. I understand why you think what you do, and I would like to show you that not all of us follow that tragic train of thought that many other very misguided christians follow. Some of us have well thought-out and logical reasons for our faith that has actually resulted from questioning and not from the discouragement of it. There's a lot more to us than an old book. A lot more.
The problem with your linked source is that it's propaganda and nothing more -- for it generalizes. Yes yes, we're all the same, we all have the same agenda, blah blah blah. Come on, this is not openmindness nor even realism. My challenge to you is to open your mind and perspective a little more. Look past the non-thinking idiots to those of us who are trying just as hard as you are to make sense of it all.
Gore, glad to see you joining us, I was wondering if you'd pop in. ;) You always have an interesting take on things, so I was very curious as to what your opinion would be. Regarding what you asked -- How can we as christians hate gays? We would be invalidating our faith to do so! Disagree, yes, but hate? This is just as much nonsense as the idea that there can't be ex-gays.
Our faith teaches us to NEVER hate anyone, and to not judge lest we "take the plank out of [our] own eye". You think I'm any less of a sinner? Far be it from the truth! Sure, I'm not a homosexual, but my sins are just as scarlet. I'm a hypocrite, a screw-up, oftentimes too shallow-minded -- heck, maybe there have been times I've committed bigotry. That's why I'm a christian. I'm a stupid, flawed person and I need forgiveness and help overcoming my own shallow limits. If I didn't continue to screw up daily, I wouldn't need Jesus. I'm just as screwed up as anyone else on this thread, and I will continue to make stupid mistakes as life marches on. Furthermore, I don't have all the answers -- even on this specific topic. A lot of this confounds me, sure. So let us bear with one another as we try to discover the full scope of the truth together.
I have several friends who are gay, both male and female. I am heterosexual. I don't think any of the people I know have chosen to be gay. With all of societies prejudices, why would someone make choice to be ridiculed and prejudiced against? I think that you are what and who you are. There are choices to not live a homosexual lifestyle regardless of wether you are homosexual. That IMO is a sad and unfair thing for someone to feel as though they had to do. It would be great if the world would just accept all types of people for what they are. The reality is that it will never happen. I certainly did not choose to be heterosexual. I never even thought conciously about it. I just liked boys from a very early age. I don't think that gays are better at some things than heterosexuals, nor vice versa. I prefer to live and let live. I don't think it has anything to do with religion. I believe it has to do with accepting yourself for what you are first and foremost and the rest will follow. As for whether or not the way you are raised can make a difference, I don't know how much I believe in that either. I have friends you were raised by homosexual couples and they are straight. That isn't the easiest thing for the children of these couples to deal with either. Kids can be very cruel and having gay parents can make school years very difficult. Most of my gay friends are very tolerant of the ignorance surrounding them, it hasn't changed their sexual orientation at all. They are people, plain and simple.
This is all just my opinion. I have no facts to provide you, no links to support my argument. I am basing my opinion on my own life experiences.
I never expected to comment here, but I feel that I must.
I think that
zaggy
Made a very nice comment.............like live and let live?
I too have had a number of male and female homosexual friends, and have found them marvellous, I do remember this guy insisting that I told my fiancee that he was gay before we shared his house in Greece..............she was confused, so I had to relay the message that it would be my problem if anyones, and she did not care............. :D
From his point it was genetic, and NOT choice.......
Just my few experiences
A point well made...That's really all we can do, once all's said and done.