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there is no one creator, it was all created in an instant, when existence began. NO sentient being involved, mo mystilal powers of the great, just strange things that we can only discripe as work of gods... THings that must have happened at the creation of all are most likly in-comprhendable by our mind,
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People should still know right from wrong. I don't let them off the hook for following along and doing something they don't like.
You must understand that all people depend on a leader of some kind to determine right and wrong for them. For most people, it's their parents who teach this to them as infants.
throwing cookie = spanking
Some people, however, need to be reminded of what's socially considered "right" or "wrong" their whole lives, and depend on authorities, such as police, the pissed-off psycho lady down the road, or religious authority figures to tell them.
questioning dude in funny robe = eternal damnation
killing person of different culture = eternal bliss
Let us also not forget that while a lone person can be quite smart, a society as a whole tends to be hot-headed, panicky, gullible, and sometimes even plain stupid. Thus, when you have a religious authority figure who everybody pictures as wiser and smarter than them, they tend to listen without question, especially when disobedience or second-guessing can (so they say) land you in Hell forever. When a person wields this much pseudopower, the world is at their feet. All they have to do is give the order, and it is done. The problem is, people don't realize that it's only PSEUDOpower. They don't stop to think, "Am I going to feel burn ouchie for long time if I disobey crazy robed guy's ridiculous, violent bidding?". Many people are too willing to believe in something and follow its laws if it claims there are unimaginible consequences if you don't. Catholicism took this, and capitalized on it. They led wars. They extorted. They tortured. It was no longer about goodness and peace. Christ was now their way of getting whatever they wanted. They took the power of God as an excuse to rewrite the rules on what was right and wrong. And people believed it.
Stflook, thanks for your very well thought out views. Yes, people do tend to give unquestioning allegiance to human figures. Cults thrive on finding people who don't want to take responsibility for their lives and their actions. Many people find it easier to be told what to do rather than think for themselves. This is a very true criticism of Christianity and probably every other religion. The only Person who should receive our unquestioning obedience is God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). The Bible is very honest when it comes to detailing the failings of God's appointed human leaders. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ himself (God in the flesh) did not give unquestioning obedience to the religious leaders of his day. Read through the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Jesus has some very unflattering things to say about religious leaders. Therefore, everything that a religious leader or minister says should be judged by the standard of God's revealed Word, the Bible. We should follow human leaders only as they follow Jesus Christ.
Greetz.
From reading this thread a few times, I've gathered that everyone wants factual evidence to support their beliefs... am I right in that assumption? Assuming that I am, I'm going to consider starting a new thread to prove Christianity beyond a doubt. But only if I feel that it won't be a waste of time, i.e., you'll actually visit it. Let me know what you think, and I'll get started on maybe not the World's Longest Thread, but most likely the World's Longest Post. And for anyone who shares my views on God, please PM me anything you think should be included.
Thank you for your attention (hey, you're reading this, right?)
God bless,
--PhirePhreak
You *could* do that, or you could just say what you have to say here. We already have an ongoing debate on Christianity right here. Unless this post is going to be *that* huge, I would just keep it in this thread. Either way, though, I'm always ready for a debate.
Trust me. It's gonna be big. Probably won't be up until Sunday nite or Monday, either. But I'm going to get started with the draft in a few minutes. It's gonna be very good :)
God bless,
--PhirePhreak
Preacherman - good reasoning there. I'm going to have to think about your last few posts.
stflook - keep on questioning man - it's what makes us alive.
I think I need to say a few things here.
first of all I'm not anti-God. I said I believe in God.
second I'm not anti religious. I respect others faiths, especially if they demonstrate the most postive elements of what it is they say they believe.
Now here is the crux - ppl that espouse a view but take a tiny part of their holy books and turn it into a crusade, jihad, riding the tiger, cleansing, pogrom, genocide etc.
If you follow a faith, fine, show us the best of it. Stop attacking others with the worst of it.
I have borne the brunt of several faiths, western, eastern and african from those whom we would call "devilish" or something to that effect. I think the we make our own god crap has had enough press. How about showing everyone WHY your faith is so good. So, live it and show it, then talk it.
Whew.
I feel better. :D
Prepare for a massive me-replying-to-everyone post...
Yes.Quote:
Originally posted here by preacherman481
Yes chsh, but also consider this. Does there not seem to be something inside humans that urges them on to seek something greater than themselves?
No, because the need exists even in those of us who are comfortable knowing we will become worm food at then end of our lives. It's part of us as a species, not just those people who believe in a god. Your line of thought only follows if we can definitively prove that we were 'created' by some kind of sentient being, which may very well be the case, however we don't have much proof of that. Our best bet is evolution, which we know in essence works, because it's happened to mankind measurably over the last 1000 years.Quote:
Can't this need to make sense of our world be a proof of the existence of a Creator?
If this was the case, there would be no atheists.Quote:
Saint Augustine once said, "O God you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you." I submit that God has "hardwired" us for spirituality.
Ahh, but see, there's the sticky part. Religion isn't fact, it's fiction, so to speak. It is entirely philosophical, therefore there is are no true or false religions.Quote:
We may express it in different ways (I'm not saying I believe all religions are true)
The spiritual hunger is not in everybody though, which would tend to disagree with your line of thought. Who are you to say that if one doesn't have a relationship with some kind of deity that they're 'dead' spiritually. I disagree with that statement fundamentally, because it assumes your point of view is right, and that of say, an atheist, is wrong. That is both arrogant and stupid of you to say.Quote:
but this spiritual hunger inside of us is just as real as any physical desire. If we don't eat or drink we die physically. If we don't have a relationship with God we're dead spiritually. Both are real.
I disagree. Your example is good, though you can see it many different ways depending on the situation. That variation from person to person is that core essence of your understanding of right/wrong. A person who believes it's good to throw cookies might see that as:Quote:
Originally posted by stflook:
You must understand that all people depend on a leader of some kind to determine right and wrong for them. For most people, it's their parents who teach this to them as infants.
throwing cookie = spanking
throwing cookie + getting caught = spanking
That fundamental thing in all of us is what allows us to act in a fashion we deem correct.
Right, the dude in the funny robe is just another person (my grandfather is an Anglican Priest), not someone who is speaking for a god.Quote:
Some people, however, need to be reminded of what's socially considered "right" or "wrong" their whole lives, and depend on authorities, such as police, the pissed-off psycho lady down the road, or religious authority figures to tell them.
questioning dude in funny robe = eternal damnation
killing person of different culture = eternal bliss
The lowest common denominator. A mob is only as smart as its dumbest people. This is very true. Does that excuse someone for partaking in the situation? No. It's their choice to be there, doing that thing, they are perfectly capable of walking in the other direction.Quote:
Let us also not forget that while a lone person can be quite smart, a society as a whole tends to be hot-headed, panicky, gullible, and sometimes even plain stupid.
This even furthers my point earlier.Quote:
Thus, when you have a religious authority figure who everybody pictures as wiser and smarter than them, they tend to listen without question, especially when disobedience or second-guessing can (so they say) land you in Hell forever. When a person wields this much pseudopower, the world is at their feet.
Precisely what I was trying to get across.Quote:
All they have to do is give the order, and it is done. The problem is, people don't realize that it's only PSEUDOpower. They don't stop to think, "Am I going to feel burn ouchie for long time if I disobey crazy robed guy's ridiculous, violent bidding?". Many people are too willing to believe in something and follow its laws if it claims there are unimaginible consequences if you don't.
Very true. You have excellently laid out the point I was attempting to make. The church, and to a great extent the religion, simply became a vehicle for political power.Quote:
Catholicism took this, and capitalized on it. They led wars. They extorted. They tortured. It was no longer about goodness and peace. Christ was now their way of getting whatever they wanted. They took the power of God as an excuse to rewrite the rules on what was right and wrong. And people believed it.
The bible is very amusing then, since the bible itself has large parts written by "God's appointed human leaders". The entire thing was manufactured by a human, not god himself. I am naturally mistrusting of humans I don't know, as I think many people are. Why should I believe what somebody wrote a couple thousand years ago?Quote:
Originally posted by preacherman481:
The only Person who should receive our unquestioning obedience is God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). The Bible is very honest when it comes to detailing the failings of God's appointed human leaders. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ himself (God in the flesh) did not give unquestioning obedience to the religious leaders of his day. Read through the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Jesus has some very unflattering things to say about religious leaders. Therefore, everything that a religious leader or minister says should be judged by the standard of God's revealed Word, the Bible. We should follow human leaders only as they follow Jesus Christ.
Then you are two faced. If you had simply said "I respect others faiths", I wouldn't think so, but your addition is what disturbs me. In essence you are saying that if you think it's good, then you'll respect it?Quote:
Originally posted by gold eagle:
I respect others faiths, especially if they demonstrate the most postive elements of what it is they say they believe.
Personally, I don't care if you respect my faith or not, it's mine, not yours.
I couldn't agree more...Quote:
Now here is the crux - ppl that espouse a view but take a tiny part of their holy books and turn it into a crusade, jihad, riding the tiger, cleansing, pogrom, genocide etc.
If you follow a faith, fine, show us the best of it. Stop attacking others with the worst of it.
Nobody should have to prove WHY their faith is so good. Faith and religion are very very personal things, IMO. I respect others' religious choices, and I would expect the same from them.Quote:
I think the we make our own god crap has had enough press. How about showing everyone WHY your faith is so good. So, live it and show it, then talk it.
/Quote from csch/
No, because the need exists even in those of us who are comfortable knowing we will become worm food at then end of our lives. It's part of us as a species, not just those people who believe in a god. Your line of thought only follows if we can definitively prove that we were 'created' by some kind of sentient being, which may very well be the case, however we don't have much proof of that. Our best bet is evolution, which we know in essence works, because it's happened to mankind measurably over the last 1000 years. /Quote from csch/
Exactly. That's my point. This need is built into everyone. God put it there. People cannot escape being spiritual. What is a drug addict? Or any kind of addict for that matter? Someone who is trying to fill an inner spiritual thirst for God in a way that can never meet the need. Whether we realize it or not, we're thirsty for God. We may use food, sex, or anything else to try to cover up this need, but it doesn't work.
/Quote from cssh/ If this was the case, there would be no atheists./quote from csch/
I disagree with you. God has allowed us free will. We can choose to deny our God-given hunger and try to fill it in other ways. The Bible call this idolatry. Putting another thing or person in God's place. God's gift of free will allows people to choose to be atheist. A love that can't be rejected is not love.
/quote from csch/The spiritual hunger is not in everybody though, which would tend to disagree with your line of thought. Who are you to say that if one doesn't have a relationship with some kind of deity that they're 'dead' spiritually. I disagree with that statement fundamentally, because it assumes your point of view is right, and that of say, an atheist, is wrong. That is both arrogant and stupid of you to say./quote from csch/
I didn't say people without God are spiritually dead, the Bible says that: Ephesians 2:1-4
"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air [Satan], the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh , following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-- by grace you have been saved."
And also, I think I am right. If I didn't believe this I wouldn't say it. If I say, "I believe 2+2=4," does that make me arrogant? If some says, "I think 2+2=5," am I arrogant to disagree with them? The difference in this case is that we're talking about things that can't be verified with the senses instead of mathematical equations.
/quote from csch/The bible is very amusing then, since the bible itself has large parts written by "God's appointed human leaders". The entire thing was manufactured by a human, not god himself. I am naturally mistrusting of humans I don't know, as I think many people are. Why should I believe what somebody wrote a couple thousand years ago?/quote from csch/
I didn't say human leaders didn't write the Bible. God worked through them and used them to do it. God works through us in spite of our faults and sins. I just meant that human leaders are not infallible. In other words, don't believe what someone just because they have a title or wear a robe. As to why you should believe the Bible, I can't prove that it's true. As a matter of fact, I don't believe in Jesus Christ because of the Bible, I believe in the Bible because of Jesus Christ. Think about that. I know by faith that Jesus is real. And if he is real, then his word is true. When a person comes to know Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit comes and takes up residence in his or her body. The Holy Spirit enlightens the truths of the Bible and confirms them to the believer. The Apostle Paul says in I Corinthian 2:12-13: "Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God . And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual." The only way to believe the Bible is through the assistance of God's Spirit.
I hope you won't take this as a personal attack on you. It's not. I just want to make sure you understand where I'm coming from.
chsh wrote:
How irritating of you to suggest I'm two faced. If you read what you have quoted me on you will see I said I respect their faiths, ESPECIALLY if they demonstrate the best points of it etc.Quote:
Then you are two faced. If you had simply said "I respect others faiths", I wouldn't think so, but your addition is what disturbs me. In essence you are saying that if you think it's good, then you'll respect it?
Ppl should have to if they are trying to convince others theirs is right. If they are not selling it then no, don't bother to prove anything. Then you say you don't care what I believe, SO? I didn't ask you to nor did I cast any aspersions on what you believe.Quote:
Nobody should have to prove WHY their faith is so good. Faith and religion are very very personal things, IMO. I respect others' religious choices, and I would expect the same from them.
chsh your posts are beginning to take on an edge that suggests you know better than anyone else who has posted. You've pointed out "errors" in almost all the longer posts with your own "corrections". I hope this is not the case.
This forum has been fairly useful so far. You or I don't have all the answers and it is not useful to pick apart everyone else's posts