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Originally posted here by preacherman481
Exactly. That's my point. This need is built into everyone. God put it there.
Only if you assume that a creator does indeed exist, and as I said, we have no evidence of that.
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People cannot escape being spiritual. What is a drug addict? Or any kind of addict for that matter? Someone who is trying to fill an inner spiritual thirst for God in a way that can never meet the need. Whether we realize it or not, we're thirsty for God. We may use food, sex, or anything else to try to cover up this need, but it doesn't work.
No, we're not thirsty for god, we're thirsty to believe in something we feel will explain things we can't easily explain. They are two different things. I know very many atheists who lead very happy and fulfilling lives. Going by what you say, it would seem that that is impossible.
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I disagree with you. God has allowed us free will. We can choose to deny our God-given hunger and try to fill it in other ways. The Bible call this idolatry. Putting another thing or person in God's place. God's gift of free will allows people to choose to be atheist. A love that can't be rejected is not love.
I suppose we should just agree to disagree. ;)
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I didn't say people without God are spiritually dead, the Bible says that: Ephesians 2:1-4
"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air [Satan], the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh , following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-- by grace you have been saved."
Can I draw your attention to something you wrote:
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but this spiritual hunger inside of us is just as real as any physical desire. If we don't eat or drink we die physically. If we don't have a relationship with God we're dead spiritually. Both are real.
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And also, I think I am right. If I didn't believe this I wouldn't say it. If I say, "I believe 2+2=4," does that make me arrogant? If some says, "I think 2+2=5," am I arrogant to disagree with them? The difference in this case is that we're talking about things that can't be verified with the senses instead of mathematical equations.
No, but math is factual, we can measurably state that the equation 2+2=5 does not work. It *IS* arrogant and stupid to tell someone else their religious beliefs (a non-factual thing) are wrong.
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I didn't say human leaders didn't write the Bible. God worked through them and used them to do it. God works through us in spite of our faults and sins. I just meant that human leaders are not infallible. In other words, don't believe what someone just because they have a title or wear a robe.
I know you didn't suggest that, I was bringing up the point because you said that everything we judge these 'leaders' by should be from the Bible, and the bible itself was written by these leaders.
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I hope you won't take this as a personal attack on you. It's not. I just want to make sure you understand where I'm coming from.
Of course not, this is a very interesting and engaging debate. It would be foolish to take anything said here as a personal attack.
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Originally posted by gold eagle:
How irritating of you to suggest I'm two faced. If you read what you have quoted me on you will see I said I respect their faiths, ESPECIALLY if they demonstrate the best points of it etc.
Then I apologize, I merely misunderstood. Most often I've seen people add clauses like an 'especially' and it turns out that the clause is really how they feel.
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Ppl should have to if they are trying to convince others theirs is right. If they are not selling it then no, don't bother to prove anything. Then you say you don't care what I believe, SO? I didn't ask you to nor did I cast any aspersions on what you believe.
Ah. I see the point you were trying to make now. I'm aware that you didn't ask me to believe in what you believe in, I didn't mean for that piece of my post to appear as though I did.
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chsh your posts are beginning to take on an edge that suggests you know better than anyone else who has posted. You've pointed out "errors" in almost all the longer posts with your own "corrections". I hope this is not the case.
gold eagle, that is what a debate is about. Debating religion is never a good idea, but we seem to have a very mature bunch here, who aren't taking things personally. I'm not trying to 'correct' people or anything, I really don't believe that I could do anything close to that over the 'net. All I'm doing is having an interesting discussion/debate/etc..
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This forum has been fairly useful so far. You or I don't have all the answers and it is not useful to pick apart everyone else's posts.
Not the posts, but the points. That is what a debate is for after all.
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Originally posted by uraloony:
Let me give you some food for thought. You say that the feelings are part of our species. But where did those feelings come from?
The same place our insane need to war and be at conflict with each other comes from. It's built into the species.
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Can you prove that it is fiction?
Yes, unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's all fact.
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But it is inside everyone. If a person cannot fulfill his spiritual needs through God properly, he will go to another perverted source such as sex, drugs, material possessions, or some other source to "fullfill" his needs. However, this "fix" is temporary and will not last. The person is constantly searching for the right "fix", but never finds it unless he chooses God's way.
I disagree. I know many atheists that lead happy and fulfilled lives without god in them, and they're the healthiest people I know, they stay away from alcohol and drugs, etc..
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Again, where have our morals come from. We can't have just evolved and somehoe chosen the right rules. If that was the case, then who is to tell me it is wrong to kill? No one. Because I have no leader and no morals. The place were we all get our morals from (like it or not) is the Bible. If you say "No I don't", you are wrong.
Why can't morals just have been evolved as part of the species?
Have you ever heard a term called 'race memory'? It's where certain cultures, and in many cases the species, seem to believe that certain creatures/etc. existed, but don't now. Dragons are one example of these things. Almost every culture has a dragon.
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The born-again Christian faith should not blindly follow the leader. The Bible talks about the Noble Bureans (they were Christians in that day.) They were called noble becase "they searched the scriptures daily to see if the things their leaders said were true."
They're still reading a book written by those leaders. They are placing their full trust in a set of men they don't know the motivations of. That's a very dangerous thing, IMO.
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I agree. We are not to follow things that disagree with the teachings of the Bible.
Why not? And why should we believe in the teachings of the Bible over that of any other religion?
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2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
Of course they would like people to believe that it is god breathed, however, man wrote the words down.
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So what you are saying is leave me alone, I do not want to take part of this discussion. If you wish for us to respect your veiws, then we can't take any action to try to disprove your religion. Thats my whole point. I can respect a person, (and I do respect you), but I can't really respect some of their veiws.
Uraloony, that was said because I thought that gold eagle was saying something he really wasn't. I was not saying I didn't want to participate in the debate. If that really was the case, I would not have written the post. Even still, I respect that your religious choice works for you, and would expect you to at least respect what I believe in, even if you disrespect some of the things that it says. I respect someone who is christian, even though I can't respect the hundreds of years of torture and murder that went on under the guise of the religion. I do not mind you trying to 'disprove' a religious choice (which is impossible anyways) I've made, what I do mind is being told what to believe in, as if it is the only way.
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Originally posted by Alcatraz:
Finally, a hypothetical question for everyone. There is an unarmed stranger in front of you. You have a gun in your hands and nowhere to hide, and there are 20 skilled snipers aiming at you from various locations. If you do not kill the stranger in front of you, they'll kill you. What will you do?
Honestly, my answer would be 'of course I'd let them shoot me', but I know that instinct can take over in a situation like that. I'm not 100% sure on my actions as I've never been put into that situation.
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Originally posted by rcgreen
I am gratified to see a heated discussion of religion without it getting angry or violent. I have had a lot of intense debates on this stuff and the only times I.ve been tempted to get violent is when someone wants to short-circuit
the whole discussion by saying something like "all religions are equally true", or even worse "it doesn't matter what you believe".
I can understand how that would get frustrating, however, the latter (on an individual level) is true, the first argument is false, because religions (being philosophical in nature) can't be true/false. To elaborate on the "it doesn't matter what you believe thing", to many, it may not matter what others believe on an individual level. I am intrigued to see where other people's faiths lie, and I may indeed some day find something convincing to me that will change my ideas about god, but until that time, I am content with debating and seeing what others believe in.
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It would be a slap in the face of every participant, to tell them that the things they feel passionately about are matters of no consequence. My first principle in religious discussion is: This is indeed a very important topic. It is a shame that people in high places neglect the debate of religion, because everyone has a religion of some kind. Every thing we do is motivated by our beliefs, but too often these beliefs are hidden, even
from ourselves. Having a debate like this helps us to know our own selves, because it becomes harder to pretend
that we "don't have any beliefs" or that we "don't care"
I couldn't agree more.
ADDENDUM: edited to fix the bolding on the last quote.
