freedom undermining itself

It has been a (long) while since I posted here in the cosmos forum (perhaps even from before it was a separate forum with separate rules). Let say from the time Antipoint status was made in here and Korpdeath was an active user, so posting here means there's realy something that was repressed... :)

Today I read the human rights watch report about al-Qaeda suspects
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/us1004/

"At least 11 al-Qaeda suspects have “disappeared” in U.S. custody. U.S. officials are holding the detainees in undisclosed locations, where some have reportedly been tortured. International treaties ratified by the United States prohibit incommunicado detention of persons in secret locations."

I'm not capable to understand how people still can support a government that permits such things. It seems that they lack every respect to a) human rights, b) international law and c) ethics. And that's not the main problem in my eyes. By doing things that are mostly done by the so called 'outlaw states', respectfull countries are lowering themselfs to the standards of outlaw states. Where's the common decency? And decency read as 'no humiliation'.

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"At least 11 al-Qaeda suspects have “disappeared” in U.S. custody. U.S. officials are holding the detainees in undisclosed locations, where some have reportedly been tortured.

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If that is true, i can feel only sorry by the americans. U.S. citizens arent following the pattern and they just think "ahn, let they be tortured, they deserve, they arent even U.S. citizens".

What is the pattern? if allow a government to torture a terrorist or whatever for a "good reason", next step will be:

torture its own citizens for good reason. Lets say, you (an U.S. citizen) is calmly walking on a street (into USA) and suddenly cops get you to jail, torture you because of accusation of rape, terrorism or something like. You have no rights, you cant call anyone until you confess... and torture is the way to get it..

sounds bad? just leave your government "taste" the power and you will see. We had here that experience, and we had stayed on Hell for 20 years....

One could also say that when you, as a terrorist, set aside human decency and chose to attack the weak rather than the strong you also set aside your right to human decency and to have your weaknesses attacked rather than your strengths......

I don't see that big of a problem..... Go take a squint at a few beheading videos and then tell me that a little bit of _appropriate_ interrogational techniques might not be worth the results...

As Mr. Putin said, (paraphrased), "we were weak and the weak lose".....

Keep being weak folks..... You will lose..... The way to win is to mirror the enemy not to try to maintain a moral superiority... Why? Simple.... the enemy doesn't abide nor respect your morals....

To continue on TS's vein:

Todays enemy, sees 'Decency' 'Tolerance' ' Respect' in a catch all basket [ WEAK ]

You HAVE to accept that this fight / war will ONLY be won by fighting them on their terms.

To those that say that this means we are worse than our enemies, or that the ends NEVER justify the means, you had better start to learn the Koran NOW.
For make NO mistake; the avowed intention of this enemy is your destruction.

By any means, fair or foul.

Victor...........

Please get yourself a life! do you believe all the crap published by the media and scumbag propagandists?............allow me to enlighten you:)

The CIA has a budget that is classified, but would make the IRS collectively wet their pants. If they make someone "dissappear" then they just vanished;)

The CIA cannot operate within the USA or its territories, that is the ambit of the FBI, Secret Service, BNDD, BATF, IRS, G2, N2, A2, and so on............they are very, very jealous organisations.

This is pure speculative CRAP............................the nasty little scumbags have appropriated the terrorist funds they controlled and have buggered off..........just like certain IRA and UVF individuals? Or, they have "fessed up" on their compatriots and have new identities, and US government funding. Let's face it, for all their money the CIA haven't caught Bin Laden, have they?

You may have read the book "The ragged trousered philanthropist"............well what would you rather be? a rag-head dickhead, or a millionaire playboy?

On the other hand, if I were chief publicity officer for a terrorist organisation, I would like the CIA conspiracy theory more than the more logical one that my "heroes" sold out.

On the other hand, if this "story" is true we have more to worry about than a few al-Qaeda suspects ..................the most powerful nation on Earth is becoming a fascist dictatorship? :eek:

MY Thoughts!

I'm sorry to say this, nihil, but did you actually read the report?

The report is about overseas operations... I have no idea where your "The CIA cannot operate within the USA or its territories" comes from (unless Iraq is now American territory? Much like Cheney's "The Iraqi's have to be counted into the coalition casualty figures, too"?) - The CIA indeed is in Iraq (and that's what the report is about), I hope you'll agree with that.

The "dissapearance" of prisoners is based on, amongst others, government statements:

- In June 2004, U.S Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld admitted that, acting upon a request by George Tenet, then-director of the CIA, he ordered an Iraqi national held in Camp Cropper, a high security detention center in Iraq, to be kept off the prison’s rolls and not presented to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

He only admitted it after the Red Cross found out about him... "Oops... yeah... we must've forgotten to report that one." (reporting prisoners to the IRC is required under Geneva Conventions, btw). In this case, it was the CIA who had asked the military to not give the man a prison number, and to not report him.

I'd be more than happy to find you the official Rumsfeld statement if you want... "pure and speculative crap"? Coming out of Rumsfeld's mouth, then...

It's that official Rumsfeld statement that had to make Bush stand up for him: "I'm never disappointed in my secretary of defence. He's doing a fabulous job and America's lucky to have him in the position he's in."

Only the weak show mercy for they desire mercy to be applied to them also.

The powerful do not have to abide by anybody's rules, for they have the power.

But that doesn't mean some things aren't unfair.

And it definitely doesn't mean that things do not change.

If there is one thing history teaches us about empires is that they fall from within, because of the increasing greed associated with the people at the top. I see no obvious reason for which the US shall not meet this same fate to some degree. Of course society moves forward so what kind of a fall it is, it's debatable.

Negative,

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I'm sorry to say this, nihil, but did you actually read the report?

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Yes I did. I do not believe it is an unbiased account, in any shape or form.

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reporting prisoners to the IRC is required under Geneva Conventions, btw

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Not if the "prisoner requests otherwise", you see then he is technically NOT a "prisoner"

Like I said: " and have new identities, and US government funding."

Please be realistic, with the right pharmaceuticals and an oxy-acetylene blowtorch, I could get all the information I wanted within 5 days................then just "sanitise"

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In June 2004, U.S Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld admitted that, acting upon a request by George Tenet, then-director of the CIA, he ordered an Iraqi national held in Camp Cropper, a high security detention center in Iraq, to be kept off the prison’s rolls and not presented to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

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Hmmmm..............

George: "Hi Don we have this lowlife and we want to fry his balls"
Donald: " Sure George we just don't report him to the Red Cross until he is dead.....only a few hours... huh?"

OR:

George: "Hi Don we have this lowlife who will sell his grandmother for two goats, three camels and five million dollars"
Donald: "Sure George, we'd better keep him under wraps then, or he will be compromised, and useless to us"

Maybe I am just cynical?


All I can say that if the people who run the USA are that stupid there really is no point in wasting good drinking time and going to vote?................and we might as well belly up because we have surely lost.

It is NOT a pretty war, but are any of them?

Cheers

PS..............I think that the difference between us is that you suspect that the forces of darkness are capable of anything...............I am rather older and KNOW that they are :D

Lawyers are turds in suits, please remember that ;)

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Lawyers are turds in suits, please remember that

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Pish, Biggest piece of CRAP I have ever heard! (Pun OBVIOUSLY intended)
Lawyers are those real, true, complete *******s who satan ended up kicking out of hell because they were too evil and greedy. Lawyers were CREATED so that we would have someone other than the devil to blame things on.

eh hem... *off topic VK sorry.* Tell that to your lawyer, whenever you need help. The underlying problem with bias towards attorneys is the bandwagon fallacy. at one point in time, some one got ****ed over by a lawyer, told their friends. Everyone that person knew started to hate lawyers, etc..

EVERY stereotype is similar to this. Stereotyping lawyers is comparable to hating people because of skin color or sexual orientation. Except, this is definitley a choice. Don't hate, hesitate, then relate your problem to a specific lawyer, and spew in their direction. These "lawyer" stereotypes piss me off as much as the "blonde" stereotypes. I have a brother in law and a sister who are attorneys, and they are cool. so chill, all you lawyer haters.