A new view on the script kiddie issue.

The jargon file[1] describes the script kiddie as "The lowest form of cracker; [one who does ] mischief with scripts and programs written by others, often without understanding the exploit they are using." While this in itself may be accurate, I do not like the present usage of this terminology.

You may be asking yourself why I would make such controversial claims in a forum that prides itself on developing skills and furthering knowledge in hopes of elevating one to hackerdom. My reasoning is that being a "script kiddie" is simply a phase in one's "education". One is not born with a deep understanding of programming and computer security, it takes patience, time and motivation to develop those skills.

Keeping this in mind, it's absolutely natural to use other people's code when you're just starting out. In fact, I'd recommend it. Use it. Understand it. Learn from it. Improve it. I think it's merely in a step in a long walk toward a distant goal. Ask any generally acknowledged "hacker" and most of them will readily admit to both cracking into systems and using other people's code. [2] They did this and later learned from it, progressing from their script kiddie stage. I see this as a natural progression, not something to be avoided or downplayed. Those who have progressed beyond this initial stage should guide the less advanced into higher levels of competence [3], not cry foul and dismiss their antics!

[1] - http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/ht...t-kiddies.html

[2] - I am here using the term "hacker" in the modern, computer security sense. Do not flame me for this simple fact, please.

[3] - The standard post would comment on making sure one includes a fair dose of "ethical" education as well.. I agree but don't think this is necessarily needed to become a hacker. Hackers come in all shades of grey.

Ideas? Comments?

It's not how they learn it's what they do with it.
If they even decided to learn and go that far. Lets break this down.

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My reasoning is that being a "script kiddie" is simply a phase in one's "education".

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I don't think it's a phase I think of it as more of being lazy.

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. Ask any generally acknowledged "hacker" and most of them will readily admit to both cracking into systems and using other people's code.

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If you ask any generally acknowledged "hacker" of there illegal activities, are you sure there going to open admit to using programs and doing somthing illegal. That to me sounds like a skript Kiddie move.

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Keeping this in mind, it's absolutely natural to use other people's code when you're just starting out

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It's not natural infact it's illegal, and stealing if you don't have rights to us it , as a programmer I would be pissed off if I had software or code that I didn't want out or didn't want someone to have.

I still don't get it am I supposed to be sympathetic now because of this thread. Skript Kiddies will always suck. Some of your reasons are also correct but it doesn't excuse there actions.
I hate the srummy little terds!

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If you ask any generally acknowledged "hacker" of there illegal activities, are you sure there going to open admit to using programs and doing somthing illegal. That to me sounds like a skript Kiddie move.

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This was truly more of a hypothetical situation. I assumed you would have taken it as such. I don't go around enquiring about people's pasts, that's not the point. Allow me to rephrase it in hopes of being slightly clearer to some:

"Would we be able to acquire some betazoids, or any run the of the mill telepaths, and peer into a hacker's thoughts and past experiences, we may.."

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It's not natural infact it's illegal, and stealing if you don't have rights to us it , as a programmer I would be pissed off if I had software or code that I didn't want out or didn't want someone to have.

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You are once again misinterpretating what I said. Obviously, my comment only applied to code that was freely 'out there'. Open source, etc. If you're a programmer and prefer to keep your source code hidden from view, I think it's rather doubtful a script kiddie will reverse engineer your ware and abuse whatever code he acquires in his search.

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I still don't get it am I supposed to be sympathetic now because of this thread.

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I didn't ask for your sympathy, I merely hoped to start a discussion and possibly offer a different perspective on a tired out issue. If the exchange of knowledge and ideas is supposively what this culture cherishes the very most, then I would think you would be thanking me for starting this thread and not questioning the relevance of its very existence.

I prefer to think of a script kiddie as...

They just cruise around looking for the latest premade exploits, and collecting them if they happen to work for them. In an earlier stage they go looking for an A-B-C guide to getting into Hotmail or something. In advanced stages they learn to compile things.

But an overriding characteristic is the idea that it must already be out there, and that just knowing it (an exploit someone else made) exists and having it is a way to increase their self-value, and that if it can't be done quickly, it isn't interesting. In other words, a low tolerance for 'hard work'... Although that is not always true, if they have an overriding feeling for vengeance or to right actual or percieved wrongs.

i have to say that i agree with freeon. it is not a stage in education. it is more of a lifestyle choice. i mean... you can decide to do drugs or you can decide to not do drugs. you can decide to be good or bad. you can decide whether or not you want to smoke. everything is a lifestyle choice.... including this. you can decide whether you want to learn to be a "white hat" hacker or a lazy and malicious script kiddie. you don't have to start as a script kiddie. i know many newbies who start out not as script kiddies, but start with a hunger to learn. they don't start out punting people and running sub-7. that is not a requirement.... it is a choice

I believe there is confusion as to what the term script kiddie means and implies. The description I noted was very generalized. My contention is that the learning process generally goes from:

(1) newbie --> (2) script kiddie --> (3) hacker

Now, I do realize that this is a highly simplified description, so please bear with me.

1) The stage when you are initially interested. You get your hands on all you can read and try to figure out what this is all about. You wander with little direction and frequently seek guidance from more experience people. There is very little 'doing' in this stage, and very much reading. You lack the necessary skill and knowledge to really delve into anything in great depths. Compare this to the early ages of childhood if you like, exploring the world with wide-open eyes, in awe.

2) The knowledge you acquired is now starting to come into place. Various concepts are coming together, allowing you a better view of how things really are. You start specializing in certain areas that interest you most. You now hold the limited amount of skill that will allow you to test the grounds. An understanding of why and how things work come about and give you a new perspective on old thoughts. Gradually, you tentatively start developing your own rustic tools and ideas. You feel as though you "finally get it", though you have only just begun to scratch the surface. It's useful to compare this stage to that of your teenager years. Unsure of yourself, you slowly dip your foot into the cold water, hoping it warms up as time passes by.

3) The trial and error you experienced in stage 2 is finally starting to pay off. You're now equipped with highly detailed knowledge of whatever had the gaul of touching your fancy. You are capable of adapting to novel situations by aptly applying past knowledge. You are wise and spend your days compounding upon what you know in hopes of expanding your abilities. You feel as though the possibilities are boundless! All that stops you is the limited amounts of digits on your clock and other pesky though necessary life chores. Ah, you have now reached the stage of adulthood, maturity.


Script kiddies are not necessarily malicious. They are not necessarily dumb or lazy. It's simply a stage in developmental growth. Sure, there are some who make complete asses of themselves, and others who will not bother doing anything if it requires reading or doing anything more than pushing a few GUI buttons, but remember: do not stereotype all "script kiddies" as such, at least not the ones defined with the definition I pulled from the jargon file.

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Originally posted by autumn regret
I believe there is confusion as to what the term script kiddie means and implies. The description I noted was very generalized. My contention is that the learning process generally goes from:



(1) newbie --> (2) script kiddie --> (3) hacker



Now, I do realize that this is a highly simplified description, so please bear with me.



1) The stage when you are initially interested. You get your hands on all you can read and try to figure out what this is all about. You wander with little direction and frequently seek guidance from more experience people. There is very little 'doing' in this stage, and very much reading. You lack the necessary skill and knowledge to really delve into anything in great depths. Compare this to the early ages of childhood if you like, exploring the world with wide-open eyes, in awe.

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I disagree. Script kiddies generally show apathy when it comes to learning stuff. You're describing the newbie phase as well past the 'script kiddie' phase. A script kiddie, in my view, must undergo massive change in order to really become a hacker. A hacker is a hacker, whether they know how to program or just simply change their desktop wallpaper. As I see it, being a hacker is a type of person, not a phase of education.

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Script kiddies are not necessarily malicious. They are not necessarily dumb or lazy. It's simply a stage in developmental growth. Sure, there are some who make complete asses of themselves, and others who will not bother doing anything if it requires reading or doing anything more than pushing a few GUI buttons, but remember: do not stereotype all "script kiddies" as such, at least not the ones defined with the definition I pulled from the jargon file.

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You're describing a newbie hacker when you say that they're not malicious, and that they are just learning. The difference between a newbie hacker and a script kiddie (again as I see it) is the difference between a lack of knowledge and ignorance. One is simply not knowing but learning, the other is choosing to not know.

Perhaps you should re-examine what you wrote:

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My reasoning is that being a "script kiddie" is simply a phase in one's "education". One is not born with a deep understanding of programming and computer security, it takes patience, time and motivation to develop those skills.

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This statement makes the presumption that script kiddies are capable of being motivated to learn. I would venture that 99% of the time that this is false. Script kiddies just want to click the button and have it work, with little or no need to understand why or how it works.

That, as I see it, is the difference between a newbie hacker and a script kiddie. A newbie hacker picks up a canned app, examines it, tries to research what it does, then tries it him/herself, without the use of an application -- all in an effort to learn.

Script kiddie is not to be considered a fase in education.
All they want is damage and to be able to brag about it. They don't know **** about computer security. Like I said in previous posts, they don't want to know how it works, they want to run scripts they didn't write or programs.

I know some script kiddie and they told me that they want to find out how the scripts work and one of them to explor the systems. Personally i think that you should make your own tools because the most of the script are in internet don't work.

Is it possible that newbies become script kiddies because some people are too *cough* 1337 to help them out with their questions?
Posting questions and then getting flamed without finding out the reason can be very frustrating. Not saying that it happens here or anything..

Depends where and what you ask.
The hack hotmail questions have been asked on a daily basis.
That's not the way to learn how to hack.

hehe, well the hotmail hack question is asking for it, I was more thinking in the line of asking what HTTP_Formmail is and how it can be exploited. For the newbie (me that is) it´s a valid question to ask on a security board. And at some boards you get yer nads burned off for asking it :)

there r 2 ways of becomming a hacker...

u can start as a "neophyte" or a "script kiddie".... the latter is the one we all hate :D (and the SKs often turn into crackers instead of hackers! DOH!)
it's that simple.... the script kiddie breaks the law and the neophyte learns everything the legal way.....
it all sounds pretty simple to me..... neophytes uses a lot of other ppl's progs too, but they don't abuse 'em....

Damn right. Script kiddies are not a part of learning process, but more of a blight on the hacker world, at least imho.

The real issue behind skript kiddies is Cracking and Illegal activities. If these users didnt go around doing denial of service attacks on people and trying to get us to download stupid trojans, we would probably not have a problem with them. They could use their little programs if they liked, but they should leave the rest of us alone. We dont want to deal with their crap.

99.99% of all Skript kiddies don't use skripts to learn anything, they thrive on destruction and most of the time they never even go near any source of real learning. They have no intention of using other peoples code to learn from it most of the time, in fact, the majority of skript kiddies use windows programs created in VB and they never have access to the source code, making it extremely difficult to learn anything from it, except how to push some buttons and feel powerful. These people need some sort of discouragement, and the people who create these programs need to stop putting them all over the web, or at least dont compile it. If you make a VB program that does something you already know how to do, thats fine; and if you want to share it with the world, great, but don't compile it for all to just grab and start using it, share knowledge, not power.

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Keeping this in mind, it's absolutely natural to use other people's code when you're just starting out. In fact, I'd recommend it. Use it. Understand it. Learn from it. Improve it. I think it's merely in a step in a long walk toward a distant goal.

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It is not natural, these people should be learning from text files, books and tutorials, not by getting programs to do it for them? How does that help them learn. I stress the fact that most of the time they don't have the source code!!!
Where is the logic in defending them? People who deal drugs and do drugs try to justify it with meaningless anti-logic (no pun intended www.antionline.com) they say it doesn't really affect their brains, they could quit any time, bla, bla, bla.
Im done now.
Make these people go away.

I think differently autumn...

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Origionally posted by Autumn Regret
I believe there is confusion as to what the term script kiddie means and implies. The description I noted was very generalized. My contention is that the learning process generally goes from:

(1) newbie --> (2) script kiddie --> (3) hacker

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I think it usually goes like this with scripties:

(1) introduced to hacking --> (2) script kiddie --> (3) computer literate

...and thats about how far they get. I don't think they will become anything greater then just being more computer literate then the usual crowd. And I disagree with the common fact that they become 'crackers'. For I would consider myself to be a hacker (not in any way bragging to you neophytes out there ;) ), yet in the past I have cracked programs, gotten root, screwed some people over...numerous things that would also make me a 'cracker'. Yet I do not consider myself to be malacious, or evil. I did that (refering to website defacment of mine a while back) only because their ethics and morals were way out of line. When I defaced the website, unlike other defacements, I didn't just put:

Hahaha, 1'm ub3r-1337 4nd 1 d3f4c3d y0u2 w3bs173.

With my HTML knowledge I created a whole new site giving them 'tips' you could say to 'hint' them to the right direction from staying scripty. (For the website was run by a few sadly). So it seems to me that the term 'cracker' has nothing to do with scripties. Scipt kiddies will stay were they are UNLESS they get kicked in the head a few times and start learning, and reading. For I must agree that script kiddes have an aversion for reading. And nowhere does 'script-kiddie' come in, in the process for becoming 'elite'. For in the past i've used other peoples programs for doing malacious things, only learning from them.

The thing is that u can't give a definition for something too abstract as a "script kiddie" ..it could be a begining and it could be a way of doing things...
though script kiddies are most of the time mean intended


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Autumn I find you have some thought provoking views and you seem like an interesting guy...however one thing;

Script kiddies will always be known as lazy and destructive, there is no way you can change the stigma attached to the name.

Example hacker to you or I is an intelligent, creative, hard working person. To the mass public it is a dirty word they wouldnt dare associate with.

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I didn't ask for your sympathy, I merely hoped to start a discussion and possibly offer a different perspective on a tired out issue

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Well you know that's what I was doing starting a discussion about your views of what a skript Kiddie is. You want to take it personal ok by me. First of all you should never assume what your posting especially when youre creating a thread about different views. Of course be specific.

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You are once again misinterpretating what I said.

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You might tend to be misleading and not get your true view off. You may also see a personal attack from a post, but this is not that. YOu would know if I was trying to hurt your feelings.

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If the exchange of knowledge and ideas is supposively what this culture cherishes the very most, then I would think you would be thanking me for starting this thread and not questioning the relevance of its very existence.

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I would hope to agree but with this is one problem. Questioning the relevance of your thread topic only would come about with creating such a boring topic that has been worn out. When you pick a topic and expect to exchange knowledge and create new ideas it's good to pick on that might stir up controversy not one that has been discussed from the begining of time.

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I believe there is confusion as to what the term script kiddie means and implies. The description I noted was very generalized. My contention is that the learning process generally goes from
(1) newbie --> (2) script kiddie --> (3) hacker
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Your description is not very logical but very hypothical. I would have to disagree with your plain insight. You seem to be one of those people who look for some type of security, or shall I say wall flower. I'm your worst nightmare. newbie to skript kiddie seems like the path you took. Trying to find some justification in actions that you took onto becoming a hacker. It's ok people make mistakes, just because you didn't make the right decisions or learning steps should mean that your a uneducated hacker. There are more ways then 1 on to becoming a hacker. You can not tell everyone which way is more popular and which is the way that is not popular. Since every individual is different.

This is not a flame!
Just ripping a few stems.

I think that the following is how the learning process goes, considering I never found any joy or interest in using programs that do stupid things for me.

---->skript kiddie-->felon->Butch's ass buddy
introduced->Newbie|
---->novice-->hacker

I think that the following is how the learning process goes, considering I never found any joy or interest in using programs that do stupid things for me.

))))))))))))))))))))))))))->skript kiddie-->felon->Butch's ass buddy
introduced->Newbie<(Choice to be made here)
))))))))))))))))))))))))))->novice-->hacker
Sorry about the double post, my text blueprint messed up

Personally, I fall into NONE of the 3 categories listed above...I am neither a "Newbie hacker", a "Script Kiddie", nor (obviously) a "Hacker". I read and post here just out of the desire to learn about the 'culture' and the technical aspects of how the 'culture' operates, just out of the pure desire to LEARN. And out of this observation, I feel that the "Script Kiddies" are truly the most blockheaded individuals out there. Coming to an interactive environment (social situation), and: asking foolish (and often potentially illegal) questions, boasting, or just generally being a punk generally impresses no one that actually has a desire to learn and perform the technical feats of knowledge that the true "Hacker" possesses. Frankly, if I were to download 'Sub7', my desire to use it would be so little that I wouldn't even bother to learn how, as it would teach me nothing that I don't already know how to do. (IP - check, pointandclick - check). Anyways...here's the point...

Desire to learn and understand (Hackers and Embryonic Hackers (new term:)) - :thumbsup:

Desire to pointandclick learn nothing in the process while speaking to others with a falsely inflated ego and blatant ignorance (Script Kiddies and their ilk) - :fu:

Ouroboros

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(1) newbie --> (2) script kiddie --> (3) hacker

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i think that the term you are mean to use in place of script kiddie is "intermediate." A script kiddie by definition has no regard for other people and are malicious and inconsiderate by nature. they are the ones who consider hacking to be the use of sub-7 and the like. they are the ones who think that the most important thing that a hacker can do, that a hackers biggest accomplishment, is to hack hotmail. that is a script kiddie.

Well, when I first started I didn't know anything because it wasn't easy to get ahold of, since every time I asked I got flamed, heheh
I started off ganking HTML and Java from chat rooms and websites, fiddling with it, etc...eventually found ways to annoy the hell out of the poor chatters with my new knowledge, then found ways to mess w/ the actual server...no, it wasn't '3l337', no it wasn't cool. It was being a script-kiddy. I begged everyone I found who seemed to know more then me for anything they'd give me...eventually I found some good d/l sites and read a bunch of tuts and FAQs that opened my eyes...and I started trying to find ways to fiddle with my new-found hobby of playing w/ security without pissing people off...it was more challenging, and ultimately I learned more from it...
-Grim
:borg:

I agree...

I think most of the time, script kiddies are the result of newbies who get flamed for their inexperience. How is the newbie/neo supposed to learn anything when the obliviousness of the experienced/"|337" hacker gets in the way? Nobody can learn when a newbie is under the assumptive thumb of the heavy hitters. Sometimes, we bring the script kids on ourselves. I think the best way to get around this malignant segment of the hacker population is to actively train people who ask politely and would want to make the effort to become what they want to be. It not only would lessen the number of them, it would make the art of hacking a rich and fulfilling activity for everyone of all skill levels.

Now y´all listen to marsalus75 ;)

But seriously, are we the only once here thinking that the scene pushes some of the newbies that become script kiddies with their attitude?
At the moment of posting this I´m still unsure if I should go this far..
But I know atleast a handfull of people here in sweden that needs a good slap now and then.
Why you ask?
Because they have perfected the 1337 attitude towards people that from their point of view don´t know enough. Kinda reminds me of nazis looking at an non-arian race. And I can see why people don´t want to be like those. Ok, there´s a long jump to becoming a script kiddie but I still want to send out a big :fu: to those people.

Flame away or whatever

Scriptkiddies. I know from firsthand experience these guys are not interested in learning anything. They want to use and abuse other peoples hard work so they can brag about the damage they have done to their friends. I agree, scriptkiddie is not an education phase; it's a choice.

I have no sympathy for skR1pT k1dd13Z at all. Bunch of aol-usin' losers (most I've seen come from aol). I've known a few to 'knock over' some poor slob's linux box after he spent 8 hours getting the damned thing to run because he doesn't know anything about linux and is trying to learn and here he is, DRT (that's Dead Right There) because some loser with his parents-bought cable/dsl line downloaded some backdoor script or buffer overflow written by someone else and now 'owned' him, defacing his web server he didn't know even existed with claims how much of a 'mad haxx0r' he is. Do I sound a little irate? I've done cleanup work for people that've lost everything all because some *****nut just had do break into their stuff and do 'cd / && rm -rf /' or 'cd / && find . -print -exec echo > {} \;' to prove their "manliness" or some stupid sh*t like that...

It's even worse when it's some .edu that was knocked offline because the underpaid overworked SA who's not aware of the latest (name here) bug because of all the work he has to do on antiquated systems is doing printer maintenance because the 75 teachers can't print because said server is down! (GAH, I'm stopping here)

I think I've stated my opinion on this...*grumbles* And btw, if you're an AOL user, don't think I'm talking to you (unless you're a script kiddie moron loser)...I just don't qualify AOL as a "real isp".

I have a little story about my experience with kids and the desire to be destructive.

I work with middle school aged kids, I teach them computers. I set up a Linux box in our lab and gave each kid an account. Of course the first thing they asked me is how can I break into other people's accounts. Their reasons ranged from wanting to damage people’s websites to wanting to read peoples email. I was saddened that this was all they could think of at first, but after some thought I found away to turn it around. I gave them some links for information and challenged them to keep me from breaking into their accounts. I would go in under my username and rename files and change their bash till they learned how to change permissions and various other things to make their files more secure. The computer techniques learned were elementary, but I believe the moral lesson was much greater.

I like the idea of challenging people who ask how to break something to fix it first. I am not sure how practical it will be in someplace like AO…Still thinking about that issue, but I believe the idea has merit.

Well I hope you guys enjoyed my insight

That's a pretty good idea there...keep them occupied by reverse engineering their want for destruction and such to get them educated and understanding of the system. It's unfortunate (downright tragedy) that 6th graders are interested in 'breaking into things to tear down web sites or read others' email' but if you can turn it into a good situation, great!

Keep up the good work, cuz you're gonna need all the help you can get...

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Originally posted by ruffasdagut
I like the idea of challenging people who ask how to break something to fix it first.

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Damn Right! There should be more people like you in the world with the knowledge to curb the problem before it starts. I applaud your insight and idea. :thumbsup:

Hey,
Thanks guys I am glad to know I am not the only one who feels the way I do.
thanks for the support