Check this out.
Shouldn't somebody DO SOMETHING?
http://msn.com.com/2100-1105-852830.html
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Check this out.
Shouldn't somebody DO SOMETHING?
http://msn.com.com/2100-1105-852830.html
Like what? What can they really do?
How can u be offended? Everyone has the right (as far as I'm concerned) to communicate on the internet. :rolleyes:
i agree, jsut because you dont agree or like it doesent mean it cant be there.. there are plenty of people that think the sam about your ideas. Let them give there ideas, and worry more about educationg people not to be like that, and retaliate constructivly
Maybe someone should give Kimble a call?
Yeah get both of those brain-trusts together...... How fast do think ol' Kimble and Al could screw themselves up?
It might be hard for some people here on AnitOnline to fully understand how American's really feel about what happened to us on Sept 11th 2001. By no means am I trying to minimize tragedies that other Countries, Religions, or Cultures are going through right now. We have always thought that America was SAFE and UNTOUCHABLE, boy were we wrong. We have to now come to the reality that we are very venerable They struck first and we have to follow through with the War and do it right, or we will be the target for all future AL Qaeda type Terrorist Organizations. One of the first targets in a ground war is the communication systems, so isn't the Internet a form of communication. It was said that part of the attack was planned and carried out over the Internet and that they(the Al Qaeda) communicated with eachother over the Internet via Email. So my opinion is that yes we should put a stop to ALL Al Qeada or terrorist web sites, message boards, chat rooms, or anything else on the Internet that has any support or empathy for the terrorists that attacked our Country. I am a strong believer in our Constitutional Rights, but I really don't think when our Founding Fathers wrote the First Amendment they took into consideration that someone could use the Internet to plan and carry out terrorist attacks against America, so I don't feel that blocking Internet access to ALL TERRORIST violates the First Amendment
hmm it is possible that they are accessing the internet via some other places that no one would suspect that they would be there.. hmm it would be really mad tho if Mitnick would lend a helping hand.. hehehe i bet the US govt already have him hired and workin on this.
I mean, isnt that what they do to convicted hackers? tell them to work for them and maybe they might let da d00d go wid minimum years of probation..
GO MITNICK!!!
and does this bring a new term for AOL?? hahahha
The US is founded on the idea that everyone has liberties by the virtue of being human, regardless of whether the Government gives them to them, and that the Government exists to perpetuate those liberties, even 'the majority' cannot take them away. One of those is free speech...Quote:
Originally posted here by FrequentZ
Check this out.
Shouldn't somebody DO SOMETHING?
http://msn.com.com/2100-1105-852830.html
I'm rambling, but the basic idea is that in order to stop this sort of thing, you would have to trample a lot of people's rights of privacy and free speech. That, and it's not in America, and the US needs to learn when to not bully other countries as much as it has in the past.
We have to do what ever we can to protect are selves. If we bend a rule it’s self preservation.Quote:
We have always thought that America was SAFE and UNTOUCHABLE, boy were we wrong.
I with TotalChaos on this one. Of course we do have liberties. Everyone has a right to be on the Internet under normal circumstances. But we're at war with Al-Quaeda and the other terrorists. If we can shut down their communications we ought to do. It might save the lives of more of our military personnel and innocent civilians.
********************88Quote:
Originally posted here by FrequentZ
Check this out.
Shouldn't somebody DO SOMETHING?
http://msn.com.com/2100-1105-852830.html
Well, FrequentZ, most of us can understand your frustration, and even some of us may confuse 1st Ammendment Rights of free speech and assembly with the imaginary "right" to incite riot, conspire with others to commit mass murder in our country, and other assorted lowlife activities while using our Constitutional guarantees to destroy our nation and use any means to murder and destroy. I guess some people can think long enough to believe those activities are protected under the constitution, or should be tolerated by our Republic. Be that all as it may, it probably wouldn't be totally to our advantage to whack their access to the iNet, although that comes closer to a reality with every one of them that gets sent to meet their 72 virgins (... or was that "Virginians" ?). Kind of like that thirty-five foot long sneaky-snake slithering around in the bush or sleeping in the trees; if he moves or sticks his head up once in awhile and you see where he is, then he can't get you so easy. It's when you can't see him for awhile that you start getting a bit antsy, catch yourself looking all around more often, and thinking more seriously about the meaning of life. The only thing we have to do in reading their words, is try to separate the wheat from the chaff, or the truth from the white noise, or disinformation as they say in certain circles. I'm confident that we have some very clever techs working the Net, and if I'm wrong about that, then shame on us! If I were to take a wild guess, I'd think it would be better to keep your enemy in sight. Seem to recall that being one of Sun Tzu's Rules of War, the use of spies to conserve your fighting assets. ...'Course, he's been gone for somewhere around 2,500 years... maybe he was as mistaken, who knows. Hang in there and do your job the best you can! :)
Shoot me if I'm mistaken, but isn't that what Al-Quada is fighting for int he first place - no music, free speech, women rights, and computers - yet they seem to be using them at their will...
...Funny ain't it how terrorists always seem to be bloody hypocrites.
if you were from afghanastan... you would be offended by U.S. gov't websites. it is all relative. no matter what site you make, someone will be offended. i think what it comes down to is whether or not you feel someone is right or wrong, you have to decide whether or not you believe human beings deserve rights. if you feel they do then you can not limit who gets those rights. whether you like it or not. you may be offended by it. but i am sure that you have offended people, and people may think you are wrong... but you are not silence, and niether should anyone else be
OoOoOooOoOoO the AL-QUEDA IS REGROUPING!! O MY GOD!! The first time around they were super powerful so this time they have the potential of taking over the world!! O wait... the al-queda is a buncha cow-worshipping-dirt-eating-hair-growing-crap who runs away from the all powerful UN. Even if they could regroup then what could they possibly do? Blow up another building? Anyone in the world could blow up a building so it doesnt make sense to worry about this one group. Sides regrouping on the internet may just **** them eventually. Why can Kevin Mitnick a security genious get traced to his house but we cant find sum damn donkey-rapers using a internet/libraries computers? Granted they're not leaving little clues on different remote systems but I very much doubt that a simple intercepted email message couldnt give anyone an idea to at least the region theyre in if not the exact computer. the taliban...bah
My point was that of course something needs to be done, but the tricky part is to do it without going overboard and turning into a police-state.
they have the right to be on the internet and we have the right to hunt them down and kill them.
tonight they lit a bunch of lights that are supposed to represent the WTF. i was not really impressed. what would impress me very much would be the perimeter of world trade plaza bordered by the heads of the the leaders of these scum bags on stakes. may they die a slow and painful death.
Quote:
the basic idea is that in order to stop this sort of thing, you would have to trample a lot of people's rights of privacy and free speech. That, and it's not in America, and the US needs to learn when to not bully other countries as much as it has in the past.
First of all the people we want to block from the Internet are not Americans so we would not be trampling on American’s Rights or Liberties. If I remember right it was in America, The terrorist came to our Country went to our flight schools to learn to fly our airplanes into our buildings. Some of the terrorist were living here in America and they were communicating with other Al Qaeda members in Afghanistan on the Internet via web pages, emails and message boards. Why should we give our Rights and Liberties to people who want to destroy our Country and who HATE what we stand for. We are not bulling these terrorists we are at WAR with them. Look what happened to Daniel Pearl, who was sympathetic to the cause and wanted to give them a chance to tell their side of things. He lived and died by the First Amendment
i wanna find some unknown Al-Qaeda web communications ...That would be fun to track down and then report.
the problem started with them feeling the same way about us. this is why we got in the situation we rae in. no offense to anyone, and i don't support the actions of the terrorists, but they did not do this with out being provoked first. in the end you can not place a blame on either side. one side pushed, the other side pushed back. it is just a case of seeing who can push harder. the stakes keep getting raised. this will never end, there will be no victor.Quote:
what would impress me very much would be the perimeter of world trade plaza bordered by the heads of the the leaders of these scum bags on stakes. may they die a slow and painful death.
i see what you are saying, but i have to say... just because we disagree with what they believe, that doesn't mean we have any right to silence them. i mean i wish we could. but the problem is... this is what they believe. just like some people believe in god and some people believe america is the best country in the world. these things are not used against us and equally we can't do much about it with out being hypocrites. i understand they are against us, but.... we can't truely say that we allow freedom if we silence people. what it comes down to is hypocracy.Quote:
Why should we give our Rights and Liberties to people who want to destroy our Country and who HATE what we stand for.
we used to be, but i think that war ended. we removed the taliban... so now america is happy cause we get oil. we are now at war with nations. next comes iraq and north korea. we claim that this has to do with terrorists, but based on the way things have been going, i fear that this prolly has nothing to do with terrorism, sadly. just like overthrowing the taliban really wasn't part of the war against terrorism... we lost site of that target a while back, or at least that is how it seems. i wish this all would just end.Quote:
we are at WAR with them.
Start Here.Quote:
Originally posted here by Tedob1
what would impress me very much would be the perimeter of world trade plaza bordered by the heads of the the leaders of these scum bags on stakes. may they die a slow and painful death.
Part Two.
Ever time you access the internet you leave 'clues' on various remote systems. Err, your statement contradicts its self. I'm not sure what you were trying to say but yes, it is a possibility that the US Gov., FBI, CIA, etc., could find the geographical location of a computer. The computer forensics technology that the US (and others) have is remarkable.Quote:
Granted they're not leaving little clues on different remote systems but I very much doubt that a simple intercepted email message couldnt give anyone an idea to at least the region theyre in if not the exact computer.
Ok so, how do you suppose they discovered the e-mails? How did they find other terrorist related information, plans, etc. with out some sort of a "clue"?Quote:
Granted they're not leaving little clues on different remote systems
My thoughts as well. They do have the right to use the internet . We also reserve the right to use that aginst them by following their tracks, persuing them, and bringing them to justice there after. Of cource something needs to be done and something will be done. I'm not necessarily offended that they used the internet as a form of communication. That just gives the US one more method of tracking them down. Do you know how many computers a simple e-mail message travels through before it reaches its final destination? Quit a few. It dosen't go from Box_A to Box_B as you may have thought. It passes through a variety of computers and it DOSE leave clues on them.Quote:
they have the right to be on the internet and we have the right to hunt them down and kill them.
Remote_Access_
Quote:
Originally posted here by Terr
and the US needs to learn when to not bully other countries as much as it has in the past.
Once again, very well said.
The Mighty US......Self imposed rulers of the world........
Quote:
Originally posted here by Tedob1
they have the right to be on the internet and we have the right to hunt them down and kill them.
may they die a slow and painful death.
Tedob1....I have always admired what you have to say and you're one of the few people here I actually look up too. I enjoy reading your posts that are normally very well thought out.....
I wont let the emotion you've let over take rational thought change my opinion of you...
Yeah thats a true fact, anyone in the world COULD blow up a building, but these are the ONLY group who managed to attack America in a GREATER MAGNITUDE (except in the cold war). Dismissing or underestimating these kind of people is like saying "why should we worry about psycho killers? anybody can kill a person".Quote:
by uzerfrendly
Anyone in the world could blow up a building so it doesnt make sense to worry about this one group.
Know, why Sept 11 happened? its because of such attitude. The govt dismissed the information they got when someone gave them a hint that something BIG would happen. they thought they were all powerful. well september 11 proved them wrong. and if we dismiss this kind of information AGAIN or even say "pish.." about it.. think again. coz i bet when the govt got that tip, the first thing they said was "pish..".
remember, history repeats itself. (if you let it.)
Obviously Sept 11 wasnt enough to teach SOME of us a lesson.
i think that sonic is right there. but i also think part of the reason that Sept 11th happened is because of the person that was put into power by the electoral college (since we didn't elect him a.k.a. he lost the popular vote) as we see now, his foriegn policy is terrible and this is probably why we ended up where we are in the first place.
as for what tedob also said. yes they deserve to be brought to justice. but they also deserve a fair trial and they deserve a fair form of punishment (no cruel and unusual torture) the reason i think they deserve a fair trial is becuase there has been no evidence that bin laden was reallyinvolved. you know how he was the last time. as soon as it happened he came forward and said FU to america and he said i got you. this time he ran scared. but why would he run? he believes that if he gets killed by his enemies he will recive a special place in heaven. this does not make sense to me. he has never been a coward before. and why did he never come forward and say "IT WAS ME!!!" he usually does that. this time it took three months for us to find a tape that didn't look so real and the translation made no sense (and it changed a few times) AND it only gave a vague statement of him saying "i liked what happened to america, the people who did it did well" not the normal bin laden. yes there were islamic hijackers on those plans. yes they claimed to do it for allah and bin laden. but couldn't some one else have put them there and told them to say that? i think so. not everything matches up. so before we put heads on stakes, we should look into things. another note.... don't you think if bin laden did it, he would have scoped out the time when the building were most crowded (a capacity of 50000) to hit as opposed to when it was lest crowded (whilr still being open) i have to say yes.
beyond all this, there is another issue we fail to address. ***Disclaimer: I do not support the acts of violence committed on america. i believe they were wrong and huge tragedies*** Was bin laden (assuming he did it) unjustified? he took the same course of action we did. The U.S. committed crimes against him. Bin Laden asked that these people be brought to justice. he was denied. He then asked that the crimes be stopped. he was again denied. Finally a few years back, HE DECLARED WAR ON AMERICA. Just as we declared war on terrorism now. after he declared war he allegedly attack, as did we. First, we didn't recognize his declaration of war... our fault. second, he has done things exactly as we have.... we blow up houses and schools with cruise missiles, he crashes planes into building... that is the only difference, technology. when it comes down to it, are we really any better then he is?
Thanks for the opinions folks.
the bottom line is this - Yes, they have the right to communicate.
But, fact is, we are at war - And as the saying goes "Anything you say can and will be used against you........."
I also think it should become extremely difficult for these individuals to maintain any type of internet presence.
Please let me clarify - What offends me is the misuse of the tool.
Lord -
Usually I find your posts interesting, but this time you seem to be on some other planet.
I don't think the US is some perfect society, but the US and Ossam are not equatible.
When? Where? To Whom? This is a guy who believes that all non-muslims of his sect are worth of death! This is not some Amnesty Interantional aid worker. He believe in Jihad, the violent conversion of non-believers. Say what you will about the USA (most of it may be true), but don't think you can justify (or even defend) OBL and his Al-Queda!Quote:
Bin Laden asked that these people be brought to justice. he was denied. He then asked that the crimes be stopped. he was again denied
ok, I feel better....Rant over
i agree with you Lord darkside to some extent. we "the usa" and the "soviet union" are responsible for the terrorism we now face. we created bin laden. we gave him and his people the training, the weapons, and the technology. we had them fight wars for us. we used them, then denied them help when they wanted it. bin laden is frankensteins' monster reincarnate. we can not just point the finger and call them all "evil doers" like bush tries to do. in their minds, what they are doing to us is perfectly justified. just like the things that we have done to cultures and countries in the past. even as far back as the american indians. our government have done just as horrible things in the past.
my point is, two wrongs do not make a right. the way we are handling this so called war is far from justified. what is justice anyways? who decides when an action is justified? george bush? the thought is scary. we are taking innocent lives in the process of "getting justice" on bin laden and his followers the taliban. our government did not believe bin laden when he said his plans. we could have prevented this years ago. it should have never came to the horrible events of sept 11th. our government is just as responsible for it as osama is when it comes down to it. ignorance is the greatest weakness on both sides. they both think violence and ethnic cleansing can solve everything.
why do the taliban use technology against us when they are against all technology? because just like our government, they believe the ends justifies the means.
Well, then, how about the real simple version: "Your Bill of Rights ends where the other persons nose begins". There is no further valid Bill of Rights discussion about how far into the other persons nose you can drive your fist. Or how many people you can legally plan to murder, or who you can incite to criminal violence. Criminal acts have no connection with Bill of Rights guarantees. We all have the ultimate right of self-defence, and in this Republic we have divested a portion of that right in our government when it gets past our individual ability to take care of. Our elected government officials (all police, sheriffs, judges, state officers and federal officers, including every military person) has sworn a personal oath to defend and uphold the U.S. Constitution (and by extension, the Bill of Rights) of the U.S against all enemies foreign and domestic. That means they are obligated to take care of conspirators or anarchists who are actively trying to destroy that Constitution, and disturb your individual right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And if our elected officials don't take care of all enemies foreign and domestic, we can vote them out of office every two or four years, as the case may be. The Texas flag has it about right; "Don't Tread On Me".
here is the thing... he came forward about 3 or 4 (i believe) years back. there was a few tapes released saying that america needed to stop what it was doing, or it would suffer. then he declared war on the U.S. i believe that he is a horrible man and i am not defending or justifying his stand point. but i am saying, it all depends on your stand point. and i am saying that he did warn america. i never said he was justified (hence the disclaimer) but i was saying he thinks he is justified, just as the U.S. feels it is justified. i am saying there is no excuse for violence on either side of the court ours or his. i am also saying that he wasn't completely unprovoked. he didn't randomly just choose america and attack it.Quote:
When? Where? To Whom? This is a guy who believes that all non-muslims of his sect are worth of death! This is not some Amnesty Interantional aid worker. He believe in Jihad, the violent conversion of non-believers. Say what you will about the USA (most of it may be true), but don't think you can justify (or even defend) OBL and his Al-Queda!
and sadly, we discuss him forcing our religion on others... well we try to force our government. it's all relative. besides i think the main thing i am trying to get across is, there are reasons behind everything. there is no one side to an issue and there is no "right" side no matter how much we would like to think there is one. we may think we are right, he thinks he is.
i apologize if you misunderstood me, jim as well as if i offended you. but the point i was trying to make i have expressed above. i was not supporting him in any fashion. i was also saying that violence is violence. no matter what the reason. whenever someone steps down to the level of violence, they become equals. violence is never the appropriate answer. my statement that america is no better then he is was meant to be taken in the context of the idea that it all depends on your side of the issue as well as in the context of violence not being the answer. hope i cleared things up.
Lord -
You didn't offend me, I respect you and your opinion. However I must disagree. There is a huge difference between the actions of a Government (created to serve the people) that may get out of hand, and a self-serving terrorist who uses violence to serve a personal end.
If the US gets out of control, there are procedures and ways to bring it to heel. We have rules, courts, and tradition to bind us from becoming evil. There is no such check on OBL.
As for all violence being relative, I don't buy it. If you use that rational, than defending yourself is as wrong as attacking someone. OBL attacked the US because western values (freedom, democracy, tolerance, drinking, equality of women, questioning of authority) are an anthema to his view of the righteous society. This isn't some attack on the excesses of the US Gov't, this is an attack on western values. We (the civilized world, both west and east) need to understand that, and either join with the less savory elements of Western civilization (i.e. Bush and his cronies) or resign ourselves to destruction.
Believe Lord, we can hang together, because we will assuradly hang seperately (with all props to Ben Franklin)
We have always thought that America was SAFE and UNTOUCHABLE,
boy were we wrong. We have to now come to the reality
that we are very venerable They struck first and we have to
follow through with the War and do it righ
I think the time is right to stop the addiction to oil from the Middle
East start looking at other types of fuel sources every time the U.S.
or Allies make big moves against a fanatical personality or a regime
there is a risk the Arab countries will jack up the prices like the
1970s or cut off oil completly that's why other Western Countries
are thinking whoa when Bush makes noises about pounding
Iraq because there interests in the region will be threatened
it's all about Money $$$ politics greed. As long as money gets
pumped into the regimes the threat will always exist they
can fund the Terrorists by proxy provide them training everything
and then send them on there way then a certain personality
will take all the heat off them.
I am not offended by this as much as I am about all the pornography on the Internet. However, it is a Freedom of Speech issue and I'd rather protect that first. Besides, if we know the Al Queda is organizing on the Internet, so do the CIA, NSA, and other fun groups.
As they say in the SEALS, "Don't run and hide- you'll only die tired."