I think it needs some new ideas. They are busy killing each other again. Who has some real solutions to the problem?
comments invited.
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I think it needs some new ideas. They are busy killing each other again. Who has some real solutions to the problem?
comments invited.
Gold Eagle...This isn't really an answer, but just a comment made to me by my son (who is six). He was watching the news the other morning, and he came in and told me that there were tanks in Bethlehem. He said "Mom they've been there all night long. Aren't their mommies worried cause they didn't come home? And what about a good night's sleep? They didn't get any if they were there all night!!"
I had to laugh, but then I thought you know, it would be a pretty nice world if we all had that perspective on it...Okay, everybody put down your guns, cause your mom is worried, and you need to get a good night's sleep....lol.
On a serious note, I don't know what the answer is, but I'm with you, we definitely need new ideas on how to make it stop.
Deb
How about a big wall? As Hawthorne (I think) said, "Good fences make good neighbors", and a fence never killed anyone...
Read: Avishai Margalit, The Decent Society, Harvard University Press, Cambridge:MA, 1996
There is no just solution for this conflict, only a decent one.
Here is the problem.
Muslims think that there religion is the one true religion. And if you read the Qu-ran you will notice that it says on numerouse occasions, how non-muslims are 'infidels' and desearve to die. Now, I dont know about you, but any religion that says you must die if you dont belive in it, is worse than The Church of Satan. I mean they worship themselves. And won't kill you if your not a Satanist.
Now, when I say Muslims I am not saying ALL Muslims, because I am sure some of them have a head and can understand that God is Love. Not suicide bombings, and violence. And even if God really wanted he non-muslim ppl to die, he would do it himself. C'mon, where is faith in God? If you really have faith, then you will let God do his workings. Not yourself.
Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.
Solution: I think if ppl could relize that God IS God. And to place limitations on Him is obsurd.
God created us with a choice for a reason. He wants us to worship him by choice, not at gun point.(IE the Taliban) If people could open their eyes and see that Christians 'essentually'
worship the same God. Of course we have different veiw's. But the Almighty is a constant.
Even the Jews worship God. Again with the difference of opinions but God none the less.
If we as man kind could lose our self-rightiouse, acting FOR God, suicide bombing logic, I think we could be alot better off.
And personally I think that Satan is loving this. I mean think about it. Where Jesus was born there is now tanks. Killing, destroying. Bethleham is no-longer an inhabitable place. It has been declared a war zone. That is so sad. Blood being shed on "holy" ground. I dont think ANYBODY has the right to call this the "Holy" Land anymore. They have desecrated it with bloodshed. I dunno, the Palestenians seriously need to understand that terrorism leads to bombs on your house, and your home.
The Bible teaches that as long as human hearts remain unchanged there will be continuing violence. We look for solutions to violence from without (government plans, negotiations,etc.) put the problem begins within, in the heart. I believe we must work for peace and try to be reconcilers (Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God.") But at the same time we must realize that on God through His Spirit can change the human heart. Some people will choose to reject God. So the only true and lasting peace will come when Jesus Christ returns to Earth and sets up his own kingdom and reigns as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." Until then there will be no real peace.
I was in church last night and My preacherwas preaching a sermon about being "Good and Mad"....he eventually got around to telling how anger becomes hatred. And how hatred becomes bitterness through the generations. Muslims have been being corupted by hatred every since Abraham or Ibrahim left his son Ishmeal, the arab nation has hated the jews.
Hearts must be change, I agree with preacher.....(big surprise huh)
And Jewish/Christian/Buddhist/Hindu/whatever people don't think their religion is the one true religion?Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Toker
Here is the problem.
Muslims think that there religion is the one true religion. And if you read the Qu-ran you will notice that it says on numerouse occasions, how non-muslims are 'infidels' and desearve to die.
There's one thing I hate more than people quoting the Bible, and that is people quoting The Koran...
Anyway, here we go again:
Yes, you can find quotes like [9.73] "O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." in the Koran. You can find the same stuff in the Bible.
Here's another quote for you...
Quote:
The Koran
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
And the Israelians need to understand that bombing someone's house leads to terrorism...Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Toker
I dunno, the Palestenians seriously need to understand that terrorism leads to bombs on your house, and your home.
It's a viscious circle, and God doesn't have much to do with it anymore (never has, if you ask me...)
Edit:
Dr Toker: I didn't know enough about the conflict to go into discussion with any of you, so I've done some studying on the subject. Maybe you also did, but at least I tried to stick to the facts (you can find my 'study' here ). I still think I don't know enough about it to judge any of the parties (although I've made my mind up about who has my support - always prepared to discuss that in pm), and that's why I'm not gonna make statements like 'Israel is right because they are Jewish', or 'Palestine is right because they are Muslim'....Quote:
Originally posted by DrToker
Muslims have been being corupted by hatred every since Abraham or Ibrahim left his son Ishmeal, the arab nation has hated the jews.
I hate to see threads like this always end up in 'We Christians will bring saviour, and all of you non-Christians are always wrong and will go to hell'...
I can't stand this. When ever I say something about God, or my faith I get a 'Negative' responce if you will.heheh.
I feel as thuoght all three of these religions are correct as far as who God is. They all worship the God of Abraham. I have never claimed to be a religious person. I hate religion. It causes wars and bloodshed. Religion was created by man. However i lean toward the Christian faith because I belive Jesus WAS the Christ. You will notice I am nothing like anyother Christian you will ever talk to.
I never said anything about everybody being wrong. the topic here was any new ideas for the middle east crisis. Here it is. Tolerance. If you don't wanna belive that Jesus died for you, thats fine. I can't make you belive that. If you don't wanna belive in Islam, thats fine. It's all about tolerance, and being secure in your faith even though ppl all around you feel differently.
Respect, Love and kindness. And to quote DELSTAR Peace love unity and respect. This isnt possible with ppl running around bashing other religions. This won't werk with ppl having hatred in their hearts.
Sadly, I think the only "answer" for the western nations
is to break our dependence on oil (or produce our own),
and to disengage from middle east politics.
We do not understand the people there. Our peace proposals
are premature. Two warring parties will not accept peace
until they are convinced that war has failed to achieve
their goals. They will have to discover this by bitter
experience, not by the preaching of western
diplomats.
:cool:
My previous post was based on the belief that it is impossible to separate the physical and spiritual parts of life. What is in a person's heart will be manifested in their life and actions. We can think of political solutions all day long, but until people's hearts are cured of hate they will be so many words on paper. Only when forgiveness triumphs will wars cease.
RC, I respect your opinion as much as I respect anyone else's on this site. But I don't know if the conditions you lay down will be met. I think increasingly the world's attention will be focused on that region and the state of Israel. I don't think it will ever be possible for the US to develop a "hands off" policy.
Well one thing... I understand everyone's religious views and everything but I myself am Agnostic...
My question is: When we gave the land to the Isreali's for their province, why the hell did we put it next to the Palestinians who they had been at war with for eons?
Another solution:
Build a big wall around the countries, or better yet, blockade it and make a trade embargo as well forcing them to either fight to the death OR move away from eachother. ^_^ better then us killing them.
Mind you this is just some 15 year old punk kid's take on it
Well said everyone. I'm glad the discussion is reasonable and without rancor. I don't pretend to have the answers or to say who is more or less right but there must be some better way to handle it than what is present. Maybe if both sides had new leaders, something fresh would emerge.
rcgreen - I like your post.
OK, this isn't anti-semite or anything, but I don't think we, the west, had any right to re-create Israel. How would you feel if a united group of bullies comes and kicks you out of your homeland? The Palestinians, or other groups of Arabs, were there first.
Secondly, not to condone terrorism, but suicide-bombers are the only method that the Palestinians have to fight back with. They don't have a big enough military to fight Israel. Diplomacy doesn't seem to be working, the Israelis are just being stubborn. And Bush is saying this isn't any of our business. But it is! Daily killings are everyone's business. Israel and Palestine can't work this out on their own, so we need to help. I think the best thing we can do right now is give Palestine all the land not originally in the original 1949 formation of Israel.
I am a supporter of Israel for the most part, but in this case you reap what you sow....
Israel was founded with Terrorism (see the attack on the King David Hotel) and it seems to be forever cursed with it...
In a land of so much faith, why can't god help them?
jcmcb - I don't think that land has any faith at all. The vast majority of them, on both sides, strike me as being : religious zealots, fanatics, phonies, self righteous trouble makers, selfish confiscators etc.
I don't see where there is any "faith" over there at all. If there is, is sure isn't in God.
well gold eagle... i have to agree with everyone else who said that there really is no answer at this point. both sides feel they are justified in there decision... ans because they resolved things with violence, nothing will ever change. violence only perpetuate more violence. niether side is willing to admit they are wrong and niether is willing to change. this will never get fully resolved until someone gives up, and pride will keep this going for a long time...
i think that long ago god (if there is one at all but that should be discussed in another thread enterly ...) turned it's back and simply forgot what / who/ what is going on ....
there won't be peace in actual sense since both sides will think they are getting riped off
in summary:
for israel: we got the bigger guns and the land why should we leave it ?plus we got support from big brother ...
for palestinian the land was ours before theirs so why should we give up the fight plus the longuer they insist the more we will too....
who ever will come up with a solution for that part of the world will not live long in any case...
i think that isreal should realize that violence is what pushes those human bombs to do it ... it isn't the motivation that "their sacrifice in the name of god " will actually solve the problem, a better appproach is more like **** i've lost all i got so why not take the most of theùm with me ?when you have lost everything what can you do ....
the ghandi' gig is not exactly used for simple reasons: first already used a couple times and not always succesfull plus isreal isn't engalnd and does have tendancy of executing politcal leaders ....
another thing: how come isreal hasn't killed arafat in the 70/80/95/02 ? it's isn't because he is such a great leader ....but more like because he is the most incompetent and they taught that they could use him at some point .... (arafat did wake up at some point and he deserve some credit from me .... but he still need to shave)
anyways
nabyltb - only slightly easier to understand than a rioter post, but, I think you said - if someone figures out the solution to the crisis permanently, that they would not live long.
Why do you say that? Someone would assassinate them?
Why is everyone saying that the Palestinians had the land first. Israel took the land from the Cannanites long ago. Later was when Filistine was formed there, until 1949 when Israel was re-established.
Sharon and Arafat need to step down, that's a good start.
I agree, new leaders that REALLY want peace.
I found the problem....It lies in the Koran
Check it out
17.4] And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.
17.16] And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.
Can any 1 eles see the obviousness of the problem?
this place has a long history:
LINK
:cool:
*Sigh* I'm not going to complain about antipoints, but I'm going to argue the comment I recieved on one for my last post, rather than wait to see if contacting the user will work.
Ok. Dr Toker pointed out that it wasn't the Palestinians there before 1034 BC, but the Caananites. Well, both groups were Arabs. And what gave the Israelis the right to kick out the Arabs? Just because God said they could have it? I'm a believer in God but many people aren't, so I don't think that argument will stand up. Besides, the Arabs believe in Allah, who's really the same as the Christian God.Quote:
Excuse me, Israel had been there since 1034bc. Then Palistine came in a took it from them and had it for over 300 years. When the 2nd war ended The Jews needed a state. So they Gave the ENTIRE region to them. Isralies gave Palestine the westbank/Gaza
Secondly, who is 'they'? Certainly not the Muslim community, nor the rest of the middle east. It was the west, more specifically, it was influential Zionists who created an Israel. What gives us, the west, the right to arbitrarily kick out the people who had lived there for 300 years, and even before the Israelis.
And, the Palestinians haven't been given those two territories quite yet. They don't own them. They are still just territories. And what about the land Israel took in the 1967 (correct me if I'm wrong) war?
There are two issues here that we should try to separate.
[list=1][*]The rights of individuals, and families, to own their homes, farms and businesses[*]The question of who controls the Government and its laws and institutions[/list=1]
On the first count, Jews and Arabs have both been Residing in Palestine/Israel
for centuries, and any person should have the right to
property that has been passed down for generations,
and not be denied his rights because of his religion
or ethnicity.
It would also be ideal if peoples individual rights were honored
even in cases where territories pass from one gov't to another.
Europeans take note here. How many times have the borders
of Europe been redrawn, and people wake in the morning
with a new government? When this happens, people are faced
with the choice. "Do I stay here and live under a foreign government
or pack up and move to be with my own ethnic countrymen
as a refugee?"
Who controls the government?:
People take a "winner takes all" view of government.
If one ethnic group has control of gov't, the other group feels
threatened and persecuted.
No other society on earth has learned how to make different
ethnic, racial, religious groups live togrther in peace
so I doubt that the Jews and Arabs will be able to.
:cool:
I have heard this quote somewhere online it said....
'The only good thing that comes out of the Middle East is oil' Does anyone here agree or disagreee with that?
LOl I think My Veiws are probley a little closed minded. All I see is death, and violence. I dont think they should kick out the Arabs. And BTW if you ask a Palestinian if they are Arabs you will get a negative responce. I think they should co-exist. I also think that if their religion has problem with the children of Israel, then the followers will have a problem. If they are told to wage war on unbelivers, then the follwers will. I think their religion is corrupt. Just like any other religion really..... but I am a Christian as most of you know. I know that God doesnt want us killing each other simply because we dont belive. And yes the Christians did go on those crazy crusades, and there was the early catholic church that went nuts with control. But a relationship with God is what ALL religions should be. I mean we share an all powerfull god.
Maybe you call him Allah, Mabey you call him Yhwh, C\Maybe you call him Jesus, what ever it is,
killing is not the answer. And this is my last post on this subject, because My veiws seem to be pissing ppl off.
Keep posting, Dr Toker! Controversial opinions are a good thing. And you're right, killing sucks. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? Oh yeah...because the human race is seriously screwed up...
ok guys ..... it seems that we are cozing a problem all over the world ...
Negative : you read allot about Kuran ... but ... it seems it's a shallow reading .. you don't go for deep analysis ... you need more Exposition for Kuran.
it wasn't nice from you making fun of other people, respect should be something mutual between all sides or let it lost for all ... which is something i'm quite sure you woun't like ..!Quote:
ac1dsp3ctrum I have heard this quote somewhere online it said....
will your link , which is " http://jeru.huji.ac.il/eh1.htm " is a peurt jews site , how would you want us to wccept such thing, they can write what ever they want to in there .... i can open a site , saying that USA wasn't for Americans ... what do you think about that .... was it for American .... naahhh ... i don't think so ....Quote:
rcgreen this place has a long history: Link
you see .. like father like son ... the hestory is repeated ...
we didn't say that god only want us to kill some one coz' he just didn't belive, but on the other hand .... why did god creat humans ... for sure not to have a cool beer and surf AO .... there's much more .... god created us ... to belive in him .... in the first place .. then have ur own life ... but if u didn't do the first step ... then u don't have the 2nd, simple as this ..Quote:
Dr Toker: I know that God doesnt want us killing each other simply because we dont belive.
i've heard some one saying that Palestine was origonaly for Israelis.... i don't think this is based on something .... coz' the whole region was only Arabs .... i'll get back to you with something documented...
regarding the Sharoon and arafat ... yes .. i as a Muslim , Arabian, Palestinian ..... agree to move both out .... and arafat is a terrorist ....
but i don't think that we'll stop the fight ... it's a fact .... we stop when we get our land.
we offered peace once ... but we don't offer twice ... even if the Arab leaders do ... we don't ... internally we always fight for our freedom ...
Conclusion .... No Solution !
bimmer - there actually was a people in that land before arabs or jews existed. I think they got assimilated however. Your conclusion - no solution is really more to the point. Rather than wrangling over who was there first or whatever, maybe if the two sides get new, young leaders with fresh ideas and the ability to convince their people to get along, it would work.
Interesting to see you say Arafat is a terrorist. While that may be true, Sharon is also an evil man who quite possibly oversaw some atrocities in his time. The world needs to retire these two old fools and give their peoples hope.
Take a look at this editorial by a guy named Charles Henderson:
http://Christianity.about.com/librar...y/aa041802.htm Please read the whole article, don't let the title put you off. Tell me what you think.
I think the first thing that needs to be done to reach any amount of progress is to get that idiot Sharon out of the way. That man has caused far more harm than good and needs to be put away immediatly.
Arafat is a moron too if you ask me, get rid of him as well. An international effort should be made to restore peace and to bring terrorists to justice.
I belive in a solution because this is not a war of religion, nor of people but of politics. Jews and muslims have lived side by side in Haifa and other cities without problems.
Bimmer, I really feel for you and I hope you hang in there until this madness blows over.
Once peace is settled I think it is time to kick out the jewish settlers from palestina and reestablish the palistinian authority.
There's a whole lot of desert there. Enought for two countries and two religions if you ask me.
i have to agree with Alcatraz, the west had no right to give the palistinians land away.
unfortunatly, we wern't around to speak up and there is no way, apparent, to undo it.
we in the west have supported israel and encouraged its growth, can we now turn our backs on them?
On the other hand, when the state of isreal was formed, it was stated that the palistinians were not to be displaced, and they have been.
well here's another nice mess we've gotten ourselves into.
well .... this is a nice point of view Tedob1 , ... i can't give ur land to any .. and u can't give my land to any ...
but the fact is ... west supported israel for a long time ...
check this site .
http://www.palestinehistory.com/
How much land do you want?Quote:
Originally posted here by bimmer
well .... this is a nice point of view Tedob1 , ... i can't give ur land to any .. and u can't give my land to any ...
but the fact is ... west supported israel for a long time ...
check this site .
http://www.palestinehistory.com/
:cool:
gees, were a little testy, arn't we?
sorry i can't give you the answer your demanding.
the israelies are no longer forigners to the land, the people were talking about were born there. what do you suggest be done with them.
well .... let me get it the other way .... how much land we will give them ???Quote:
as much as you give them land in the state to establish a country , i'll do the same... how about you give them chicago for example .... can the state do that .... for sure they can't ... then why u r asking me to give them from my country .....
i believe there's jews but there's no israel as a country ....
it's a big diff. when you talk about country than talking about religions ... u c .
as jews they can stay any where they want ... but to start a new country ... this is the issue ..
bimmer - do you think the two can share the land or must one side beat the other down?
Not picking a fight but since you live over there perhaps you can say a little better than some armchair experts who live on the other side of the world.
What is the solution you propose?
i wish if there was a fair solution for both ... but , i think one should beat the other .
yeah ... this is the only solution..