To beat the man, you got to be the man

Here's a question I've been pondering for a little while now....

It takes a hacker to beat a hacker (using term loosely, especially after the whole discussion in tread http://www.antionline.com/showthrea...threadid=226228)

Now here's the question, people come and go from this site, some formulate their question and ideas in wrong manners, by either attempting social enginnering, oblivious newbie question/speach, and so on. Yet, aren't we suppose to show them the way of the ropes if they truly want to become security "guru's"?

I understand that some are just stupid people, asking retarded questions like: "how do I hack hotmail...." and have dumb reasons/excuses for their questioning.

Yet some people ask questions that are borderline and get flamed....

Which leaves to wonder, why ask... or like ASPII said: "to avoid getting flamed, don't post"

And then it leaves me thinking this....

This site denotes the mentallity and practice of hacking. But must we not know how a hacker works? I understand that some things we all agree that we should do and know about our networks, but what about writing virii? It's great that we can all buy software from McAfee or Symantec, but they never all work the best....

So, are we to be condoned on practices of things like writing viruses or decompiling?

I know that others have already been ahead of myself and others, practicing what some consider forbidden practices or taboo, which, their experiences could serve me good for the future....

What is the line in the sand that seperates permitted actions and actions of wrong?

What would make me an outcast of this culture, this community?

Here's something most people will probably condone. I have not done but figured it would be a good question. What if Joe Brown has a website. I want to use the same software a Joe Brown for my website and wanted to check the security of it. I decide to "hack" it, to check it's vulnerability and strenght, without defacing or damaging a thing? Would I be wrong in doing so, or would this be ethical?

Some things are understood to be out-of-bounds, yet, after looking over this tread (http://www.antionline.com/showthrea...threadid=226380) I'm left to ask, what are the pre-set limits?

Is hacking or being a hacker always illegal?

Hey Tyger_Claw,
Could you check the links you posted? They just led to a "This Page Not availabe" notice. As to your hypothetical question I would say, "If you want to test Joe's software, ask him first." I have to admit some of the things I see on this site do bother me. One of these is asking for software "cracks." I think if this is a security site that kind of thing shouldn't be allowed.

I don't think it is illeigial. Thats why companies hire security officers!

In the true sense of the word, 'hacking' doesn't mean anything negative at all. 'Hacking' or being a 'hacker' are simply the terms applied and given to someone who has a thirst for computer and security knowledge, who sits down every day and tries to learn the ins and outs of a program or system, not for malicious or evil intent, but for the pure benefit of knowledge. The media has skewed the terms 'hacking' and a 'hacker' to always denote something negative, but in reality, it's really not. So in relation to your question, I'd say 'hacking' or being a 'hacker' isn't illegal at all, but in reality actually a good quality to possess. A lot of the members here are true 'hackers.' But it was the original, old school 'hackers' that started it all. They are truly elite.

Sure thing Preacherman... sorry about that... cut & paste don't seem to work right....

First link: http://www.antionline.com/showthread...&postid=501317
Second link: http://www.antionline.com/showthread...&postid=501310

IMHO, I think that the word hacker describes all of us on both sides. Although one makes a choice wheteher to be a "malicious hacker" or to be a "constructive hacker". I believe that all hackers are inherently the same, its just what they do with their knowledge that seperates them. This site was designed and set up to help those of us that are of the constructive side. I don't agree with all the flaming, but if its going to stop someone from taking up a place on the wrong side.. so be it. I know that some questions are a bit on the edge though. In that case people here make a judgement call and respond accordingly. If the person getting flamed begins to retort in a less than desired way, then go for it. On the other hand they may realize that the question they asked was a bit shady sounding, and if they rephrase it to ask a viable security related question, then I would be glad to give any thing I can to help.

As far as knowing how a hacker works. There are many people on this site that have a great wealth of knowledge. If you listen and learn everything you see, then you will know how a hacker thinks, because in essence, you will become one.

I hope I didn't get to off the topic.

xmaddness

You are pretty much on topic....

It's just a question that, where does it all come down to?

It all comes down to 3 things Morals, Standards, Ethics. Windows is a good name cause like any house you can with a bit of effort break one and enter a neighbors house. Morals wise if you see a web site and wish to borrow a tool, then ask the owner to borrw the tool. Old days like 1992 or so hacks were usually between students and they may have been using Unix talk in short everyone agreed to a so called bump me off line game, that would be a standard would you walk behind someone smack them in the head? Look you find a fault in a system do you know their end. Jump to the it is their fault is not right do you know they may have just been the first person hired as an Admin to pathc the system that was but patch work from consultants? Is this their fault, do you understand their prespective of maybe 50 or 100 users while working through network setup's having to deal with how do I chance my screen saver? I agree with Preacher on so many issues, you cannot and should not look at any sys and say hey it's Admins fault if you know nothing of the enviroment they work in. Before you even think Admin is lame not addressing security issues, ask first is Admin a colsultant setting up the next paid visit or securing the system. In my case before me it was all set up for the next visit by the consultant. Morals, Standards and Ethics of humanity are not hard they are basic rights of all people, just cause you invade those right using the web will not has not and will never make it right. Oops off the soapbox, guess my sig says the point

To beat the man, you have to be better than the man.

Ethics?

People throw around that term here like crazy...,

Is doing x, to y's z ethical?

If it is, and you aren't y and that isn't your z, then unless he says its cool, then I want to see the ethical system you are operating under.

If I took a crap on your lawn, in order to fertilize a dying patch, would you consider that ethical?

If one of these young kids in here toiletpapers your house, because they think it would be an aesthetical addition, is that ok?

p or -p

If you have to ask if something is ethical, then it is likely you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

(Please, if you take this as an attack, understand that this is coming from a guy, that at his college's room lottery, peeked inside the envelope when he picked in order to get a better number..., it worked. After three years of having a roommate, I finally have a single room. This is not ethical either, yet I did it. Which makes me sound like a hypocrite, but I never said ought, therefore I did not imply that you should do anything, and thus I don't have to do anything which applies to the above. So I am fine, and we have just killed ethics as a topic of discussion. )

What can be shown, cannot be said.[4.1212]

So, did I say or show that? Touche, Wittgenstein. Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, my ass.
[3.28]
[6.54]
[7]

dhej

Hi

:D

I am not an expert hacker and am still very much a newbie (albeit an older newbie) but i feel that hacking is an excellent way of letting people know that whatever they do in the world of computers is not very safe at all and if they want / need privacy security etc , then they should be very careful what they do with their technology

The above, i feel is the state of the real world...


BUT
ideally:

I also feel that if you hack in order to "use" a tool, get info etc etc (ie steal) then that is not right... Is it ok to break into someones house through their window in order to use one of their tools, or get something they have that you don't?

All in all i reckon that non malicious hacking is a good thing making people aware how vulnerable they are and to remind them to be careful
There, feel better for that

:p

This is a really tricky subject. It all depends on what you do with your knowlege. We'd all agree that it is illeagal to steal a car. But how about walking through a public parking lot and looking into a car. Your not harming anything, you just want to see what the interior is like.
So we could, from that little analogy, say it is ok to scan a system as long as you don't damage (alter) anything. But is this this so? Sooner or later this will have to be defined.
To be a good locksmith you have to know how to pick a lock.

This is exactly what I wanted to get going... see even when we do come to agree...
it seems that we only agree to disagree....

We all seem to think that something is "ethical", yet then there's that foggy patch where everyone has their say....

Like Dhej said:

Quote:

---

If I took a crap on your lawn, in order to fertilize a dying patch, would you consider that ethical?

---

btw... nice analogy.... :D

See, although some of us have good intentions, it doesn't matter, or does it?

THis sounds to me just like another Ethics question that people, mankind, has been facing for thousands of years. This answer cannot be answered buy just one person, and you will never get an agreed upon answer. This is just like asking, "Is abortion good or bad?" or "Should capitol punishment be allowed or not?" You are going to get people that will argue the side they agree with. Unless you take a vote, which is why the death penalty is allowed, then you really aren't going to get much furthur with this. It is just one of those, "Should marijuanna be legal?", type issues. My suggestion would be a poll. Let the people vote.

I agree that there are different types of hackers, therefore not all are bad.

Quote:

---

By Ennis in “The Ultimate Newbie FAQ”
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=218093

Black Hats
You may have heard this term tossed around this forum a couple of times, Black Hats are crackers out to gain something from their computer knowledge. Basically they are the crimanals you hear about from the media.

White Hats
You guessed it, the good guys. The find holes in systems and may patch them up or warn the sites administrator. These people are the moral conscience of the hacking world.

Grey Hats
Kinda myth-like, apparently the old crackers using their skills have root on many sites but do not deface the site or cause damage. They may install backdoors and sites. They do not talk to anyone or release their exploits to other hackers.

Input from MsMittens

---

So basically it falls down to this...

Everything is not simply in black&white, it's more of a degredation of grays...

Which now leaves me to this... why should we help people if we'll get crap in return....
(ie: charges, lawsuits, etc)