Racial Discrimination NOW

First off let me define discrimination, Discrimination is the unequal treatment due to race, sex, nationality, etc.

Okay,
I was watching the news yesterday, and there was a special on MSU. I myself live in Michigan as most of you know, and it sickens me that they are still discriminating based upon your race in their acceptance process. Now, I don't know about you, but I was raised and live in an integrated free America. Now I realize that I do not. In the Michigan State University, your status as a minority awards you points that are the equivalent to getting good SAT scores, your GPA, etc. Pardon me for saying this, but what the f***! How can a college get off accepting one person over another based upon their skin color. As I watched the program further I saw that when 2 equal people, both equal on SAT's and GPA and after school activities, applied to MSU, that the minority would get in simply because of their skin color. I am not saying that there should be White Power, what I am saying is that we should have equal treatment amongst the races, as it is written in the constitution. There should be no biased acceptance based upon what your skin color is. We have lived in a free society for the past many years after segregation was declared unethical and illegal, and with that went discrimination, or atleast I thought so. But this sickens me to the bone, that in this day and age in the 21st century, that your skin color is dictating whether or not you will get into college. Anyway what do all of you think of this disgrace to America?

I have a dream. by MLK

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I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

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Well, it seemed like a good idea.
:cool:

As minorities are under represented in higher educational institutes I think it is a good thing to quote them in because it will in the long run create a general higher education amongs minorities.

The thing is that most of theses minorities are struggeling with problems that the average american don't have. If everyone had the same possibilities from start I would understand your frustration but since this is not the case I think positive discrimination at times may be a good way to get somwhere with the problem.

Positive discrimination?

Cool topic...(I love all topics with lots of pro's and lots of contra's :D - Oh, and don't argue with me, or you'll be banned).

The3ntropy, I completely agree with you, although by naming your topic 'Racial Discrimination NOW', you contradict everything you say...

In a perfect world, there is no discrimination. In the real world, there IS discrimination, and there'll always be. And imo, there is no discrimination without positive discrimination: people who discriminate others based on their race, automatically positively discriminate people of their own race. People who discriminate women, positively discriminate men. The opposite also is true: people who positively discriminate others, are discriminating. Period.
That's why your topic-subject makes no sense, The3ntropy... Discrimination is as bad as positive discrimination (although you probably picked that subject to catch our attention ;) ).

Maybe we should focus on the question why there is discrimination in the first place... I say, in America's case, it's a wrong use of resources: The States have the potential to be the ultimate country of freedom... too bad they use it the wrong way.

Let's stay on topic: education. I'm Belgian, so I'll stick to the Belgian educational system.
In Belgium, all education is free (one year at university, the most expensive, costs about 400 USD). Schools aren't allowed to refuse students (even the dumbest guy is allowed to commence university studies). Parents are obligated to pay for the education of their children.
The only thing that is pretty expensive is housing: since we only have 15 universities, most people rent a little studio while at university (about 250USD/month). Students whose parents can't afford this, get a scholarship covering most expenses.
I've noticed that most college/university students in the States also have a job to pay for their education. I've never met a Belgian university student who has a job (besides, they wouldn't pass - university studies can't be combined with a job, unless you're the ultimate genius...).
Who's funding all of this, you might ask. Well, the Belgian state is. Don't you pay for it yourself then by paying a lot of taxes, you might ask. Sure, but our government spends its money on education rather than on the army... As I said: wrong use of resources.

To get to my point: there's no need of positive discrimination in the Belgian educational system, simply because their is no discrimination...

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Who's funding all of this, you might ask. Well, the Belgian state is. Don't you pay for it yourself then by paying a lot of taxes, you might ask. Sure, but our government spends its money on education rather than on the army... As I said: wrong use of resources.

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OK, this is a cheap shot but I couldn't resist.
In 1940 when Germany last invaded Belgium,
the Belgian soldiers had about three bullets
each.

A government that fails to protect the lives
of its citizens, while boasting of free health care
and education is useless and unnecessary, IMO.
:cool:

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Originally posted here by Negative
Cool topic...(I love all topics with lots of pro's and lots of contra's :D - Oh, and don't argue with me, or you'll be banned).

The3ntropy, I completely agree with you, although by naming your topic 'Racial Discrimination NOW', you contradict everything you say...

In a perfect world, there is no discrimination. In the real world, there IS discrimination, and there'll always be. And imo, there is no discrimination without positive discrimination: people who discriminate others based on their race, automatically positively discriminate people of their own race. People who discriminate women, positively discriminate men. The opposite also is true: people who positively discriminate others, are discriminating. Period.
That's why your topic-subject makes no sense, The3ntropy... Discrimination is as bad as positive discrimination (although you probably picked that subject to catch our attention ;) ).

Maybe we should focus on the question why there is discrimination in the first place... I say, in America's case, it's a wrong use of resources: The States have the potential to be the ultimate country of freedom... too bad they use it the wrong way.

Let's stay on topic: education. I'm Belgian, so I'll stick to the Belgian educational system.
In Belgium, all education is free (one year at university, the most expensive, costs about 400 USD). Schools aren't allowed to refuse students (even the dumbest guy is allowed to commence university studies). Parents are obligated to pay for the education of their children.
The only thing that is pretty expensive is housing: since we only have 15 universities, most people rent a little studio while at university (about 250USD/month). Students whose parents can't afford this, get a scholarship covering most expenses.
I've noticed that most college/university students in the States also have a job to pay for their education. I've never met a Belgian university student who has a job (besides, they wouldn't pass - university studies can't be combined with a job, unless you're the ultimate genius...).
Who's funding all of this, you might ask. Well, the Belgian state is. Don't you pay for it yourself then by paying a lot of taxes, you might ask. Sure, but our government spends its money on education rather than on the army... As I said: wrong use of resources.

To get to my point: there's no need of positive discrimination in the Belgian educational system, simply because their is no discrimination...

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Sounds great!!! Then I guess I need to send my kids to Belgium. Hey Neg, can they bunk with you?? hehehe

Please don't ban me.....please..

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Originally posted here by Negative
Cool topic...(I love all topics with lots of pro's and lots of contra's :D - Oh, and don't argue with me, or you'll be banned).

The3ntropy, I completely agree with you, although by naming your topic 'Racial Discrimination NOW', you contradict everything you say...

In a perfect world, there is no discrimination. In the real world, there IS discrimination, and there'll always be. And imo, there is no discrimination without positive discrimination: people who discriminate others based on their race, automatically positively discriminate people of their own race. People who discriminate women, positively discriminate men. The opposite also is true: people who positively discriminate others, are discriminating. Period.
That's why your topic-subject makes no sense, The3ntropy... Discrimination is as bad as positive discrimination (although you probably picked that subject to catch our attention ;) ).

Maybe we should focus on the question why there is discrimination in the first place... I say, in America's case, it's a wrong use of resources: The States have the potential to be the ultimate country of freedom... too bad they use it the wrong way.

Let's stay on topic: education. I'm Belgian, so I'll stick to the Belgian educational system.
In Belgium, all education is free (one year at university, the most expensive, costs about 400 USD). Schools aren't allowed to refuse students (even the dumbest guy is allowed to commence university studies). Parents are obligated to pay for the education of their children.
The only thing that is pretty expensive is housing: since we only have 15 universities, most people rent a little studio while at university (about 250USD/month). Students whose parents can't afford this, get a scholarship covering most expenses.
I've noticed that most college/university students in the States also have a job to pay for their education. I've never met a Belgian university student who has a job (besides, they wouldn't pass - university studies can't be combined with a job, unless you're the ultimate genius...).
Who's funding all of this, you might ask. Well, the Belgian state is. Don't you pay for it yourself then by paying a lot of taxes, you might ask. Sure, but our government spends its money on education rather than on the army... As I said: wrong use of resources.

To get to my point: there's no need of positive discrimination in the Belgian educational system, simply because their is no discrimination...

---

Sounds great!!! Then I guess I need to send my kids to Belgium. Hey Neg, can they bunk with you?? hehehe

Please don't ban me.....please..

Hey Negative,
I want to come to Belgium to study. Can I stay with you? I promise, I don't eat much (ok, that's not true. I do eat a lot). But seriously, I don't think quotas are the answer. What's wrong with just selecting the people with the best qualifications?

Hey Negative,
I want to come to Belgium to study. Can I stay with you? I promise, I don't eat much (ok, that's not true. I do eat a lot). But seriously, I don't think quotas are the answer. What's wrong with just selecting the people with the best qualifications?

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Originally posted here by Negative
In a perfect world, there is no discrimination. In the real world, there IS discrimination, and there'll always be. And imo, there is no discrimination without positive discrimination: people who discriminate others based on their race, automatically positively discriminate people of their own race. People who discriminate women, positively discriminate men. The opposite also is true: people who positively discriminate others, are discriminating. Period.
That's why your topic-subject makes no sense, The3ntropy... Discrimination is as bad as positive discrimination (although you probably picked that subject to catch our attention ;) ).

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The term, as I've heard it applied at least the academic level, is reverse discrimination. Simply put, in favoring a minority simply because of the color of their skin or their ethnic background, you are reverse discriminating against the so-called non-minority. In this great country of our's, we once had something called "affirmative action" - which is just that... justified and lawful reverse discrimination.

If two applicants of identical qualifications apply for the same governmental job (eg. like an instructor's position at a state university) and one of them is white/caucasian and the other is a minority... without even giving a second look, the University had to hire the minority. Furthermore, there were/are "quotas" - since they "are an equal opportunity employer" (the government), they have to hire based on head-count percentages. I have actually witnessed cases in which a well-qualified , non-minority applicant with direct experience in-line with the position has "lost" a position to a less-qualified applicant, with no direct experience, simply because the second applicant was a minority and "affirmative action" like policies were in-place.

But, all-in-all, I think you're right... a world without some forms of discriminations or biasedness isn't possible. People are naturally judgemental for a wide variety of reasons (not just skin color) - I think those natural "judgements" taken to extremes are what we view as "discriminatory." *shrug*

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To get to my point: there's no need of positive discrimination in the Belgian educational system, simply because their is no discrimination...

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Respectfully so, I highly doubt that's completely true (perhaps ironically, I also have a relative who is a long-term member of the senior educational staff at one of the Belgian universities). Sure, there's no need for it, but I doubt that it's completely non-existant (I'd also ask, however, what sort of ethnic diversity do you find in the Belgian educational system, as you put it? Just wondering if, perhaps, there's an interesting answer to go with it... *smile*).

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Originally posted here by Negative
In a perfect world, there is no discrimination. In the real world, there IS discrimination, and there'll always be. And imo, there is no discrimination without positive discrimination: people who discriminate others based on their race, automatically positively discriminate people of their own race. People who discriminate women, positively discriminate men. The opposite also is true: people who positively discriminate others, are discriminating. Period.
That's why your topic-subject makes no sense, The3ntropy... Discrimination is as bad as positive discrimination (although you probably picked that subject to catch our attention ;) ).

---

The term, as I've heard it applied at least the academic level, is reverse discrimination. Simply put, in favoring a minority simply because of the color of their skin or their ethnic background, you are reverse discriminating against the so-called non-minority. In this great country of our's, we once had something called "affirmative action" - which is just that... justified and lawful reverse discrimination.

If two applicants of identical qualifications apply for the same governmental job (eg. like an instructor's position at a state university) and one of them is white/caucasian and the other is a minority... without even giving a second look, the University had to hire the minority. Furthermore, there were/are "quotas" - since they "are an equal opportunity employer" (the government), they have to hire based on head-count percentages. I have actually witnessed cases in which a well-qualified , non-minority applicant with direct experience in-line with the position has "lost" a position to a less-qualified applicant, with no direct experience, simply because the second applicant was a minority and "affirmative action" like policies were in-place.

But, all-in-all, I think you're right... a world without some forms of discriminations or biasedness isn't possible. People are naturally judgemental for a wide variety of reasons (not just skin color) - I think those natural "judgements" taken to extremes are what we view as "discriminatory." *shrug*

Quote:

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To get to my point: there's no need of positive discrimination in the Belgian educational system, simply because their is no discrimination...

---

Respectfully so, I highly doubt that's completely true (perhaps ironically, I also have a relative who is a long-term member of the senior educational staff at one of the Belgian universities). Sure, there's no need for it, but I doubt that it's completely non-existant (I'd also ask, however, what sort of ethnic diversity do you find in the Belgian educational system, as you put it? Just wondering if, perhaps, there's an interesting answer to go with it... *smile*).

just because minoritys are "under-represented" does not mean that we need to give them advantages to make it easier to get "represented" more...it means that over all they have to work harder to EARN representation in schools. the same goes for us caucasion folk, we need to earn our way into whatever school we want to go to, and if we dont earn it, we dont get it. we dont go arround crying "white people aren't equally represented in Grambling Univ!"(grambling is a big time "black" university) do we? no we dont...

just because minoritys are "under-represented" does not mean that we need to give them advantages to make it easier to get "represented" more...it means that over all they have to work harder to EARN representation in schools. the same goes for us caucasion folk, we need to earn our way into whatever school we want to go to, and if we dont earn it, we dont get it. we dont go arround crying "white people aren't equally represented in Grambling Univ!"(grambling is a big time "black" university) do we? no we dont...

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Originally posted here by draziw
The term, as I've heard it applied at least the academic level, is reverse discrimination.

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now i know this isnt your term or anything, but here's a mini-rant:

"reverse discrimination" is a bullshit term. it means nothing other than "descriminating against those who usually arent". do two wrongs make a right? hell no they dont! rather than "reverse discriminating"(descriminating against everybody who isnt a minority), how about NO discriminating?

wait? did i just suggest that in order to have equality we must treat people EQUALLY?!?!?! i must be a genious or something...or not.

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Originally posted here by draziw
The term, as I've heard it applied at least the academic level, is reverse discrimination.

---

now i know this isnt your term or anything, but here's a mini-rant:

"reverse discrimination" is a bullshit term. it means nothing other than "descriminating against those who usually arent". do two wrongs make a right? hell no they dont! rather than "reverse discriminating"(descriminating against everybody who isnt a minority), how about NO discriminating?

wait? did i just suggest that in order to have equality we must treat people EQUALLY?!?!?! i must be a genious or something...or not.

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Origininally posted by rcgreen
OK, this is a cheap shot but I couldn't resist.
In 1940 when Germany last invaded Belgium,
the Belgian soldiers had about three bullets
each.

A government that fails to protect the lives
of its citizens, while boasting of free health care
and education is useless and unnecessary, IMO.

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First off, I wasn't talking about the educational system back in 1940.

I assume you're referring to your 'three bullets each'-comment when you say our government failed to protect the lives of its citizens. (Oh, and you use the past tense in your first paragraph, and change to present tense in your second one... we're 62 years later now, you know...).
Today, Germany has a population of 83 million. Belgium only has 10 million. I don't know exactly how many we had back in 1940, but I assume the proportions were about the same. If I follow your analogy, we should have had 8 times as much bullets as the Germans...
Don't know where you get that 'about three bullets each'-comment either...

Talking about cheap shots: I wonder why you didn't mention the American liberation of Belgium, though ;)

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Origininally posted by rcgreen
OK, this is a cheap shot but I couldn't resist.
In 1940 when Germany last invaded Belgium,
the Belgian soldiers had about three bullets
each.

A government that fails to protect the lives
of its citizens, while boasting of free health care
and education is useless and unnecessary, IMO.

---

First off, I wasn't talking about the educational system back in 1940.

I assume you're referring to your 'three bullets each'-comment when you say our government failed to protect the lives of its citizens. (Oh, and you use the past tense in your first paragraph, and change to present tense in your second one... we're 62 years later now, you know...).
Today, Germany has a population of 83 million. Belgium only has 10 million. I don't know exactly how many we had back in 1940, but I assume the proportions were about the same. If I follow your analogy, we should have had 8 times as much bullets as the Germans...
Don't know where you get that 'about three bullets each'-comment either...

Talking about cheap shots: I wonder why you didn't mention the American liberation of Belgium, though ;)

In 21century America, anyone can get an education if they want one. No matter how poor a person may be or what background a person may come from, anyone can make something of him/her self.

In the 60’s, 70’s and even the 80’s this wasn’t the case and black people and other minorities needed to be given every opportunity possible, after the years of being beaten down by white America. This was right and just. ( the lifting up, not the beating down )

But IMO its time to stop depriving America of the best minds possible, and award by merit instead of by skin color, ethnicity or the number of generations one’s family has been in this country. This may not necessarily be the best thing as far as Caucasians are concerned but that’s not what’s it’s all about. What’s right is right.

Make me president of these united states and i promise you pot in ever chicken..huh..oh sorry wrong forum !

In 21century America, anyone can get an education if they want one. No matter how poor a person may be or what background a person may come from, anyone can make something of him/her self.

In the 60’s, 70’s and even the 80’s this wasn’t the case and black people and other minorities needed to be given every opportunity possible, after the years of being beaten down by white America. This was right and just. ( the lifting up, not the beating down )

But IMO its time to stop depriving America of the best minds possible, and award by merit instead of by skin color, ethnicity or the number of generations one’s family has been in this country. This may not necessarily be the best thing as far as Caucasians are concerned but that’s not what’s it’s all about. What’s right is right.

Make me president of these united states and i promise you pot in ever chicken..huh..oh sorry wrong forum !

I don't understand coming from Britian but our Judicial System is still discrimant against race i dunno why just if a Black or asian person is 4 times more likely to be stop and search for drugs than a white person theres something wrong. Just the way life goes I suppose but one strong case is the Murder of Stephen Lawrance a Black Youth the convicted got away scot free. Oh well

I don't understand coming from Britian but our Judicial System is still discrimant against race i dunno why just if a Black or asian person is 4 times more likely to be stop and search for drugs than a white person theres something wrong. Just the way life goes I suppose but one strong case is the Murder of Stephen Lawrance a Black Youth the convicted got away scot free. Oh well

Oh well, i live in Spain and the problem of racial discrimination is a recent one. This make me thing about the sense of it. If in this country (i hate this word, but i'm trying you to understand me) we are a mix of Arabs/Roman/North African/Barbarians/Jews etc etc, why is discrimination rising quickly?

MONEY

This seems not worry "Spain's President", Mr Bush-asslicker JoseMari Aznar (a niephe of one of Franco's military assistants in 1936-39 war, Lt General Aznar), and money-eaters that day after day are gaining terrain. We NEED inmigrants, because we need people to work in agricultural. Where i live in the NW, population were decreased not long ago because of emigration. 1900-1920 we lost more than 50,000 people every year because they had to go if they didn't want to die of starvation, and land property laws did the things worst.
Nowadays, the sons and niephes of that people are returning, and fortunately, there's a lot of space to share with them. Also, people of Morocco, Romania and ohters are coming, but some people don't want them (i mean, spanish people out of where i live). The main problem is that those moroccans and romanians are POOR, really poor. they need our help, but there is more: many of them are criminals, and the innocent ones pay for them. Fortunately, Spain is a crossroads, and we are prepared to assimilate them all. Is a fact of life. Poor people from the 'South World' is going in a huge number to 'North's'. If that is a bad thing, we deserve it!

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The term, as I've heard it applied at least the academic level, is reverse discrimination. Simply put, in favoring a minority simply because of the color of their skin or their ethnic background, you are reverse discriminating against the so-called non-minority. In this great country of our's, we once had something called "affirmative action" - which is just that... justified and lawful reverse discrimination.

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Oh, what do I know. I just translated it straight off from swedish. Not my fault I haven't had more time to learn your silly language ;)

What strikes me in this thread is the difference between European and American thinking. The libertarian, or the American viewpoint seems to be that all men are created equal with exactly the same possibilities to make something of their lifes.

The for most times, social democratic or European viewpoint seems to be that there are in fact differences in the possibilites given to each individual. A child from a minoity, brought up in a poor neighborhood have the same possibility to apply to college but he wont have the same interest in doing so. This is where affirmative action comes in.

There seems to be a difference in reasoning, perhaps from traditional politics in ones personal region. A more left-oriented Europe and a more right-oriented America.

In Europe we have a strong tradition of higher taxes but free education, child care, helth care and so on. Stuff that from what I know is mostly financed by insurance in the states.

I dunno what I want said really, I noticed something I found interesting. Oh well.

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A child from a minoity, brought up in a poor neighborhood have the same possibility to apply to college but he wont have the same interest in doing so. This is where affirmative action comes in.

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Do you mean he won't have the same interest? Then what does affirmative action do? Force them to apply? Or do you mean he won't have the same chances to get in?

I am a minority (Native American) although I look caucasion. I grew up in one of the worst neighborhoods in Lansing Michigan. I have a bachelors degree in Information Systems.

I don't understand you arguement. If you apply yourself, it shouldn't matter what your race is. There are plenty of scolarships/loans/grants/etc. Everyone can afford to attend. I know minoritys that have degrees and never spent a penny on school. They actually made money off of attending. I know caucasions that couldn't get the same assistance, and now have $30,000 school loans that they have to pay off.

The biggest problem with MSU (and I think UofM recently was doing the same thing) was that they were accepting students with lower SAT/ACT scores and less qualified, simply because they were a minority. There is something that says XXX% of students must be black/mexican so they would turn down qualified white students to bring in more unqualified minorities.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The possibility to get accepted at the college of choice is probably the same for a caucasian or for a person from any minority.
The fact that you have a bachelors degree says something about your family and your surroundings. Someone must have given you the confidence and the determination do get a higher education.

What I'm saying is that when your dad's in jail, your mom's a crack addicted prostitute and several of your friends have been killed recently in drive by's, applying to college is probably not the first thing that strikes your mind.

Affirmative action can help you in the way that you might get accepted to college even though you lack the proper grade average and this knowledge might inspire you to apply even though you're going through rough times.

I do not, however, belive that affirmative action should be applied in a way so that people without proper qualifications get jobs or college seats before people with better qualifications get them.

If two people have the same prerequisits or qualifications I think the job/seat/whatever should go to the applicant which is a minority at the place they're applying.

It's frustrating cause I feel I lack the language skills to express my ideas in an elegant way. Let me know if I make no sence whatsoever ;)

Discrimination is not about laws, rules or goverments.
It's about the people that are in those goverments and make those laws and rules.

Mankan: you see, you've just hit upon the problem...the affirmative action program does just that...it gives spots to people who dont deserve them, while pushing out people who have done all the work to get whatever they are applying for. if a company or school has to meet a certian % to qualify for whatever government program, then they have no choice but to hire the less skilled person if they are a minority because they "need" that quota.

8*B@LL: You're quite right. When Swedish fire fighters decided there should be more women in the organisation they lowered the physical standards so that women could meet them. I think affirmative action when applied that sort of way is wrong.

When two applicants have the *same* qualifications I think the job should go to the one best representing a minority in the current business. Always.