Revisionism

I just saw that Gitta Serenys latest book has been translated to swedish and this got me thinking around the holocaust, a previous post by Jethro on another thread and revisionists in general.

How many of you guys out there claim the holocaust to be a myth? What are your thoughts around revisionism? Am I the only one that feels sickened, hurt and so angry I could scream everytime people try to rewrite such an important part of history?

What scares me the most is that in 40 years there will be noone alive to tell the tale. All eye witnesses will be gone and the land will lay open for anyone to rewrite the history as they see fit.

What's your opinion?

For me, the question is not to tell that a-thousand-times-told history, but the fact that there are other holocausts that happened in WWII. Why media and a number of intellects talk so much about jews holocaust, when in that war died 20 million russians, 6 million polish, etc, in the most part by the hand of Waffen SS? Do anyone know (apart from some historians and maybe some witness) that the German army treatened in a worse way russians than jews? Do anyone know that only few jew-death-camps were administrated by SS, but Wehrmacht, while ALL russian-death-camps were given for the amusement of the Totenkopf of Himmler and friends?

Maybe jews were considered a lower kind by the nazis, but people often forget that communists (or simply eastern-suspicious-people) were in even a lower place for them. I think that jew holocaust are so much remembered because they are in the victorious side. Don't forget it.

That is just silly. The communists were also on the winning side in case you want to check on history. East germany, cold war, die mauer, ring any bells?

Besides, russians died because of war. In wars people get killed and it sucks. What is special with the jews is that there was a political decission to exterminate them as a group. No such decission was made with russians.

I can understand the critisism that there has been alot of talk about the jews since communists, socialists, union workers, gay men and women, gypsies and mentally impared people also went to concentration camps.

You say that the russians were treated worse than the jews and I'd really like to know in what way or where you have picked this info up. What do you base this on?

(I tried to answer you many times, but my system has kicked me again and again...)

Just a brief question: Why that interest in showing us the suffering of the jews during the war, when others were suffering the same or even more? After Germans defeat in Stalingrad, russian prisoners were treated like mere beasts. Jews were still people, lower people, but people at least. Also, Germans scorched earth and people while they're running back, escaping from soviet army, lead by Stalin's mad dream of soviet Europe.

Don't forget: History is written by the victorious.

Russia was victorous in World War II! Russia wrote the history together with the allied! Reality check. Please.

You say that russian prisoners were treated like beasts but jews were still people. In what way do you think jews were treated like people? They were being held prisoners for one purpouse only - to enter the gas chamber where they got executed.

I'm not tryig to show anyones suffering. That is not my job and I couldn't do it even if I tried because there was too much suffering.

I'm pointing on the holocaust because it is beeing denied by the revisionists. Nobody's saying that the suffering of russians never took place. But people are actually trying to make other people belive that the political decisson to extinct all jews never existed.

The holocaust does not lessen the suffering of all the other victims, but theis suffering isn't beeing denied.

(I tried to answer you and my system kicked me again.grrr...)


Briefly: I don't believe you are trying to show others' suffering, please trust me!

Other: I get angry when people applaude the works of mindsucker S. Spielberg. Why people worship such a rancorous man? In his movies, german soldiers seems Tolkien's orcs. I hate movies like "Schindler's" or "Private Ryan" because of Spielberg's distorted vision of facts, which is provoking that other people believe in it.

Perhaps i'm not good at words...

Just a couple things:

There seem to be two groups of revisionists: unsophisticated antisemitic propagandists, and the 'real' revisionists: those who deny the existence of a systematic, industrial plan of organized destruction which resulted in the death of about six million Jews (commonly referred to as 'THE Holocaust').

bluepnrc, you have a point when you say that there have been other holocausts than the Jewish one. The point, however, is that most of those holocausts are NOT denied, probably because they are much better documented - and not because the victims were on the winning side (Mankan is right btw when he says you have to get your facts straight, because you seem to be confused about which WW you're talking about - The Russian Empire was defeated in WW I, but Stalins troups were victorious in WW II).

Stalin was responsible for the death of tens of millions of people. Nobody's going to deny that fact (with the exeption of a couple die-hards). Hittler was responsible for the death of tens of millions of people. Nobody's going to deny that (with the exception of the unsophisticated antisemitc propagandists I mentioned before). That's not what this thread was originally about, though (right, Mankan?). This thread is about the systematic, industrial plan of organized destruction of the Jews during WW II, and I'd like to know your opinion on that matter...

You're right about Shindler's List being a distorted vision of facts though...
A suggestion: check out Nuremberg - starring Alec Baldwin. Don't eat before watching this 4-hour production, as it contains actual uncut footage of the concentration camps (picture the extermination of mad cows in England, then replace the cows with people - lots of people) - I don't understand how some people can deny the Holocaust after seeing that footage.

Jethro: you're absolutely right about the Nuremberg trials: they were a mockery of justice. Now, let's deal with your Zyklon B-claims...

The Nuremberg trial: Col. Amen quotes Hoess on a previous interrogation (where he indeed probably was foltered)

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The Nuremberg Trial, a transcript
"I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their exterminations. The camp commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one-half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas, and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyklon B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one-half hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were removed our special Kommandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses."

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This is all acknowledged by Hoess.

One-half hour, Jethro... not ten minutes.

It took from THREE to FIFTEEN minutes to kill the people in the death chamber... not 7-10. You may be right about Zyklon B being a SLOW acting agent, but you're writing your own version of history there... or the IHR is...

And about Zyklon B: Zyklon B was manufactured by Degesh (American branch home-page) and Tesch/Stabenow. It indeed was manufactured originally as a pest-control agent. Zyklon B serves as a carrier for HCN (Hydrocyanic acid). Maybe you should investigate HCN instead of Zyklon B: HCN is the gas used in American gass-chambers.
HCN is much more effective when used against warm-blooded 'animals' then it is on insects: Degesh advices to use a concentration of up to 16000 ppm with an exposure time of up to 72 hours. 300 (THREE HUNDRED, that's 50 times less) ppm is enough to kill people in 15 minutes. And about your cigarette-claim: the concentration of HCN necessary to cause death is nearly 200 times lower than that which causes explosion. Although the SS used a concentration higher than the lethal one, it was far below that causing explosion.


That's one thing I've found typical about revisionists: they seem to be highly skilled in manipulating the FACTS (my facts come from Degesh, btw).

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There seem to be two groups of revisionists: unsophisticated antisemitic propagandists, and the 'real' revisionists: those who deny the existence of a systematic, industrial plan of organized...

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For the record, I'd just like to say that I am neither antisemitic, a redneck, a skinhead, a neo-nazi...etc

I suggest you make a point of visiting the Museum of Tolerance. To say that there are exagerations is to belittle what those people went through and frankly makes me sick to my stomach.

And let's talk about facts....how are you going to believe anyone from the Nazi party, the propaganda machine they had going had millions brainwashed. They themselves believed the lies they spread.

This is more ridiculous than the moon landing nay sayers. I had relatives that went to concentration camps.


P.S. Anyone who denies their suffering should meet the same fate. I realize that's cruel but that's the way I feel.

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Hollywood propoganda, what else can I say? Other than sometimes, emotions get the better of people and cloud the facts.

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I agree with that movie being facts-clouding. There's a 15-minute fragment of ACTUAL FOOTAGE in that movie though. Hollywood propaganda? I don't think the 'people' shooting that footage were American :/

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Half and hour is still ridiculous. It would have taken considerably longer than that.

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1. You said Hoess said that "10 minutes after the Jews were gassed (which supposedly took 7-10 minutes), the guards would come in smoking and take the bodies away".
Hoess said One-half hour, not 10 minutes. (I'm not even debating the time it actually took, just proving that you are manipulating your quotes).

2. Hoess didn't say ANYTHING about smoking. He mentioned the removal of gold and jewelry ("After the bodies were removed our special Kommandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses"). The words smoke/cigarette are NOT in the transcription of Hoess' testimony.
Again, that's a fact.

3. Degesh advices to use a concentration of up to 16000 ppm with an exposure time of up to 72 hours. 300 (THREE HUNDRED, that's 50 times less) ppm is enough to kill people in 15 minutes.
FIFTEEN minutes with only a 300 ppm-concentration, Jethro. 'A few minutes' according to The Merck Index.

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I like the way you used the word 'animal' in quotes as to play on human emotion. Was this your intention? I guess it doesn't matter because it probably wasn't. I wonder what it like smoking under a GAS MASK. Think about it.

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From The Merck Index and the CRC handbook of Chemistry and Physics (632, entry 4688)

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For HCN, a concentration of 300 ppm (parts per million) kills humans within a few minutes, while the minimal concentration that can result in an explosion is 56,000 ppm.

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This guide talks about 'humans'. Degesh didn't talk about humans. Degesh talked about 'warm-blooded animals'. As I was referring to the Degesh advisory, I put 'animals' between brackets, indeed referring to humans.

What's your obsession with smoking? Like I said, Hoess didn't say ANYTHING about smoking.
And to answer your question: I guess they were smart enough not to smoke inside 'the showers'. And to take off their masks first when outside...

Now, where do I sign up for the IHR-slander club?

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I don't remember ever seeing any information stating that Hitler was credited with the death of tens of millions. Even stretching the imagination past the over-stated "6 million", it's still ridiculous. But you know that, so let's not dwell...

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Hitler started the war (or will you deny this too?), so all of the deaths
are on his account.

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Civilian deaths from land battles, aerial bombardment, political and racial executions, war-induced disease and famine, and the sinking of ships probably exceeded battle casualties. These civilian deaths are even more difficult to determine, yet they must be counted in any comparative evaluation of national losses. There are no reliable figures for the casualties of the Soviet Union and China, the two countries in which casualties were undoubtedly greatest. Mainly for this reason, estimates of total dead in World War II vary anywhere from 35,000,000 to 60,000,000--a statistical difference of no small import. Few have ventured even to try to calculate the total number of persons who were wounded or permanently disabled.

However inexact many of the figures, their main import is clear. The heaviest proportionate human losses occurred in eastern Europe where Poland lost perhaps 20 percent of its prewar population, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union around 10 percent. German losses, of which the greater proportion occurred on the Eastern Front, were only slightly less severe.

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http://ragz-international.com/world_...casualties.htm

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You say that russian prisoners were treated like beasts but jews were still people. In what way do you think jews were treated like people? They were being held prisoners for one purpouse only - to enter the gas chamber where they got executed.

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From what I have gathered, the NAZI policy was the same for Jews, Poles, Russians, and
communists, at least for all practical purposes.
They may have singled out the Jews in their propaganda, but members of
any of these groups were in equal danger of being arbitrarily killed.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWshirer.htm

http://www.drjohnholleman.com/win/churchill2.html

:cool:

Hitler started the war, but the war was going to start anyway; everybody knew it at that time...

or am i wrong again?mmm...

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Hitler started the war, but the war was going to start anyway; everybody knew it at that time...

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I belive you are wrong here. There were no conflicts between Germany and the countries that they invaded later on. The expansion of Germany had more to do with Hitlers politics and his vision of an aryan nation. The expansion itsef was made possible by the domestic problems in Germany in the thirtiees and Hitlers retorics that promised a solution to poverty and unemployment. He basically blamed the whole situation on the Jews, the gypsies and the socialists.

I'd say it's safe to blame the whole war on Hitlers politics.

I think you're almost right, but remember: even England was intended to be an ally just before the war...

An ally of Germany, i mean...

Jethro: But what about all of us who have relatives that died or were rescued from the camps? Are we liers too? Are our relatives liers? As I have stated before, my girlfriends grandparents were held in Auswitch. Are they lyers when they talk about what horrible stuff went on there? Are all the jews that make a living on traveling between high schools to tell about the holocast and their experiences in the camps liers? Why would they lie? What good could possible come from making up a story like that?

May I suggest that you actually visit a camp and see for yourself? Find someone that was there and talk to them. Read Gitta Serenys books. But please, don't base your oppinions on some stupid website used by skinheads to justify their agression management problems.

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Originally posted here by bluepnrc
I think you're almost right, but remember: even England was intended to be an ally just before the war...

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That is something I have to knowledge whatsover of. No offence but I think you have some reading up to do. In what way was England supposed to be allied with Germany? For what cause?

England was near Germany because of fear of USSR. Things got bad after German-Russian pact, August 1939. They tried to calm political environment (the english way...) but war was just a step ago. Then Hitler came to Poland, etc, etc.

Ugh, starting to wish that I had just shut up. I just want to say that I am not "justifying the Holocaust" as some grey antipointer accused me of, nor am I a "r4c1st b4st4rd" thank you very much Lone1337.

Basically, what I'm trying to say (in my "fact manipulating" way) is that I don't believe that the Holocaust happened to the *extent* that the media portrays it. But I agree the millions of Jews died under the Nazis. I was just trying to make a point and I'm sorry if I offended anyone (like Mankan).

Although I didn't have any family personally in the concentration camps, we have several family friends that were. They still have the scars, the tattoos, and the nightmares. And they were the lucky ones. You will never convince me that the holocaust never happened.

I don't think anyone here is saying it didnt happen. What some people are saying is that some of it might historically exxaggerated AND innaccurate. Why would you want to take anything at face value, as if it were God's own truth? That would be like believing Windows is the perfect OS with NO holes.

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Basically, what I'm trying to say (in my "fact manipulating" way) is that I don't believe that the Holocaust happened to the *extent* that the media portrays it. But I agree the millions of Jews died under the Nazis. I was just trying to make a point and I'm sorry if I offended anyone (like Mankan).

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Oh no, you didn't offend me at all and I appologize if you thought so because of my post. I find your opinions very interesting and that is why I started this thread in the first place.
I think you are dead wrong and find it very disturbing that there are people that think the holocast is exaggerated. Especially with the fascist winds blowing over Europe right now (Denmark, France) but I respect that you are willing to share your beliefs even though they are quite provoking.

Above all, I'm a democrat. I don't get offended by peoples beliefs and I'm sorry for any reddies you might have gotten for speaking your mind. Antipoints shouldn't be used in that way but that's a different thread.

But you do aknowledge the fact that jews were held in "death-camps" while waiting to be executed just for beeing jews?

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Originally posted here by Mahakaal
I don't think anyone here is saying it didnt happen. What some people are saying is that some of it might historically exxaggerated AND innaccurate. Why would you want to take anything at face value, as if it were God's own truth? That would be like believing Windows is the perfect OS with NO holes.

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I personally feel that it is of uttermost importance that people learn about what happened from those who were there. No other source is reliable enough. I feel this way because as human beings we have an obligation to make sure that something like the holocast never happens again. To anyone, be it jews, muslims, catholics or raelists.

Revisionists, I belive, pose a threat because they spread information that is not first hand information even though it is still available. In just a few years though, everybody that actually experienced the holocast will be dead and first hand information wont be available anymore.

At that point it is up to anyone with the most power to influence to decide what people belive about the holocast and I for one find that very scary.

Get your facts straight now. Soon it will be to late. That is what I belive.

Hey Mankan. Yes it's important that something like systematic killing of Jewish people does not happen again. Stepping away from the topic of revisionism, do you know anything about an organisation called http://www.netureikarta.org/ or http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ .
I give you a few little known but important questions from jewsnotzionists

IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid

IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.

IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.

IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!"

IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".

That is not meant to shift entirely, the blame from the Nazis, but this brings a little but very important unknown fact that the original founding fathers of Israel let thousands upon thousands of innocent people go to their deaths.

And please don't try to label these guys as "self-hating jews", because there is no such thing, but an argument to quell dissent against Israel. I recommend you read "The Holocaust Industry" by Norm Finkelstein. A JEWISH author.

I hope these are retorical questions because with facts at hand I cannot really judge if any of them are true. They all seem however, highly unlikely.

There are some things in your post I feel I can answer based on common sence.

1) Why would anyone take an offer made by Gestapo. Espesially as lat as -41 and -42 when several thousand jews had already been killed. What right does anyone have to give anyone an "offer" like the one claim Gestapo did?
Give me one example of any minority that would accept such an offer today.

2) To whom was this offer made and how was this person thought to communicate the offer to all other European jews? This seems a lot like ZOG-propaganda to me.
Even in peace times there would have been impossible to communicate an offer to all jews because there was and still is nothing that keeps these jews together. There is no jewish state of which you are a member just because you belive what is written in Talmud and the Torah. A jew from Oslo in Norway and a Jew from Barcelona in spain have nothing in common except their religous belifes. And to blame the holocast on some Zionist movement is crazy because the zionists and your average jew has just about as much in common as Usama Bin Laden and your average muslim.

Zionist leaders can't represent all jews and have no interest in doing so either. There is no jewish chain of command. No jewish leader. No jewish nothing. Judaism is a religion and as such it is impossible to speak of jews as anything but a religious group.

I belive Norm Finkelstein to be one of the dumbest people to ever set foot on earth and the fact that he's jew doesn't imply anything due to reasons stated above. Nevertheless I just ordered the book from amazon.com. I'll get back to you when I've read it.

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IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

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I don't know the answers to most of these questions (which seem
to suggest that the Zionist leaders were cynical and uncaring),
but it is established that the USA was practically closed
as a destination. Anti-immigration forces in the US Congress
represented the majority viewpoint, and would not relent, even
as the situation in Europe became painfully obvious.

A German offer to "permit" jews to leave was rendered
impractical by their insistence on confiscating all the
money and property of those attempting to emigrate,
coupled with the unwillingness of other countries
to accept impoverished refugees.
Catch 22

:cool:

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Originally posted here by Mankan
What scares me the most is that in 40 years there will be noone alive to tell the tale. All eye witnesses will be gone and the land will lay open for anyone to rewrite the history as they see fit.

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And this is different from any other 'stories' that one hears? The curse of OUR lives is that anyone can change a story, and it will be accepted as truth. 'TRUTH' has become irrelevant, since it is based on perspective and interpretation. Religion, history, intent....all corrupted by the interpretation by those who weren't there. Some are stronger than others...but how does one really know what happened? Majority opinion, for the most part. Does that make it true? Nope.
Don't be a sheep...research and find out for yourself the inconsistencies and similarities of events that have been recorded 'honestly' by different people. In the end, you will find nothing but difference, and everything but 'truth'. So fairy tales must be the only support that one has. Society has advanced to the point of idiocy...we believe whatever we're told, as long as it's someone with a badge or a white collar. So go on, believe things without a second thought...or don't, and be attacked by those who have the guts to find out for themselves, although that task is one that drains the life out of the strongest of us.

Think.

Ouroboros

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And this is different from any other 'stories' that one hears? The curse of OUR lives is that anyone can change a story, and it will be accepted as truth. 'TRUTH' has become irrelevant, since it is based on perspective and interpretation. Religion, history, intent....all corrupted by the interpretation by those who weren't there. Some are stronger than others...but how does one really know what happened? Majority opinion, for the most part. Does that make it true? Nope.

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You are absolutely right. This is why I urge people to get first hand information while it is still available.
It is sad when people choose a certain point of view because it is politically convinient. This is why I respect Jethro even though I think he is wrong on all accounts.

IS IT TRUE that the israel/palistinian war is coused by sympathy for the jews in israel (the state of Israel was instated right after WWII).

So you see, things just continue.

WWII came after the alies forced germany in depression (war payments) after WWI, which started in yugoslavia.

Most wars are only about two things. Money and pride.

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Originally posted here by the_JinX
WWII came after the alies forced germany in depression (war payments) after WWI, which started in yugoslavia.

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arg...i whish people would learn how to make good logical arguements.
WWII also came after my grandfather was born, does that imply that my grandfather had anything to do with the start of the war?

anyway, the current conflicts in Isreal are because both sides are pretty much rasist bastards who would completly wipe out the other side in the blink of an eye if they could(yes i'm saying that the Israeli jews would kill all the palistinians if they thought they could get away with it).

[EDIT:ADDED]

oh yea, and sorry for kinda hijacking the thread, carry on, carry on.

A lot of people died in the wars. There were many Jews who were killed by state policy, and not just of Nazi Germany, my learned colleagues. I know of first hand accounts by those on all sides of the war. There were camps, people were tortured and killed. The numbers are likely debatable but why deny such things took place? There were other Genocidal events last century besides the Jewish tradegy. Consider - Armenians, Chinese, Pacific Islanders, Ukrainian and others. I'm missing the point of the revisionists.