Ethics 101

I'm not one to debate the details of hacking, cracking or scipt kiddies. To me it really boils down to one thing out here no matter what in the above you may be in. Bunch of people now getting old made all of this stuff work. I'm one of em and I'm rather tired at times. So ask your self this if you dare cause it is only you that will know the answer. Today this day I can seek and find info on anything. When in your life did your parent's, school, State, or Goverment become the enemy? Many places I've been in the world it is clear in the US it is not and other places deal with these things in their time and culture after all the US is not really a bellweather in such things. Anyway I can walk by a Window of any business anywhere in the world snach and grab what I can. So what would this make me? I can lift the hood or crawl under my car cut this and that and stuff will not work, I can even take myself and said car into an obstruction and it's all going to break. Point is Windows are fragile can be broken simple rock not real high tech there. The desire to learn is good, as to understand, but tell me get away from the computer going to hit you neighbor over the head steal all they have? Would you lirk upon a street corner prey upon the next person or wallet you could steal? Would you run over a person in a crosswalk to push the red light. Remeber out here that there are people and business that need this stuff..break it and well maybe mom or dad may not have a pay check 7 to 10 years of research were lost into Cancer cause the server was open. Consider it not as an open box understand the contents of what may reside there. All this is not a video game, any of it touch real people lives. Oops just a long hard life here...before you break it understand fully your actions and you want to me famous for making the world better or proving M$ or any OS is broken?

Hmm.. I don't think I exactly get what you mean here... Some clarification perhaps?

deep, man, very deep, :), nicely said though
/me stares in awe at words his puny mind cannot decipher on the screen and bows to palemoon

Is the box real or the people that run the box wrong? There is a flaw in everything in life media and crackers, hackers, script kiddies live for the flaw any OS has them not real high thinking concept...thing is it does have a cause and effect on real lives..some of them people or Nations modest. Point is you see a box to use and do what makes this different then saying rolling an old man or womanfor a wallet or purse? For your own gain..I walk streets everyday am not attacked..just cause it is digital now will not ever make it right. Humm a flaw is like a open zipper after going out of the Can, CR, Lu...depends on the culture of what a a rest room is called. To be correct for females that would = panthose in the waste band, paper in the you know where.... Computer are an extension of real people and their lives and where they work pay the bills..Simple boxes make pay check that pay bills..is this clear..if not then sit where I have through the 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's learn this history cause for me it is not but another day in my life..throw in 2001 and 2002 also and I cqn teach you howd to fold a new $20 and then ponder.

Nice post man thats intense

well said once again................
/me bows down in awe of palemoon's wisdom

Am not here to gain points hell 1/2 the time I forget how to post a thread. Guess thing is you are all good people some intentions through youth, self gain fame what ever simply need to ask is it a box or people lives. Been lucky came from modest starts to where I am, know who I turn to and I am old? People older then me hopefully dirt..cause they may not know computers but boy do they have knowledge and I apply that one concept here. Computers = people a box you use may hold one person life their family. Me I'll choose to protect this digitally as much as if you walk in my front door and I do not know you..will not be pretty after all do it real life your life may end depending upon the owners ways.

Simple Stats from a Dot Edu, you know those worthless State Employees from any given University cause people wamt to learn to exploit for oh an open box. Get a clue a dot edu is open for people that pay lots of $ to learn. Ok Ok stats one dot edu.

April 2001 Research Data Lost Under Grads entire file system deleted as they watched. The cost of their attending the U well mom and dad, grants, student loans, and perhaps a years study lost. Attend a EDU it sort of cost someone money. What did these real people pay and the delay of their degree? Were there stupid no the US EDU system is supposed to be open to other ideas did this person say hey your server has holes nope mass delete for what mom and das ISP account and they could.

October 2001 Again Researchers system insecure from an FTP file exploit well known. Dah they are into their research not system security, result backdoor reentry, research ac****s shut down and research personnel locked out. Data lost Cancer, AIDS, Downs Syndrone, Fital Acochol Syndrone.

January 2002 Admissions email server compromised and used to attack other computer systems. Resut server being off line during deadline processing for apps. Did you make it to that dot edu or lost in the shut down?

So is the result of just the tip of the ice berg so to speak...so tell me was it a box or people lives here. Answer is clear the box is there it's purpose is intended for the user not you. Who appointed any of us to scan and then use these systems. If we are to offer in the US an open learning enviroment then such boxes will always be open by nature. So what is the next hack just can I can result in lost data that may wipe out research data that is a decade old that may hold a key to cancer ot well when you grow old all this **** that hits your body and mind, or maybe you newly born child. Are these things worth it is that box thatr damn important do you even know if the box your breaking may save or loose a life. Computers are tools and this age of breaking them and their info is not good and will never be selfish intent in any act for ones own gain at the expense of any human is wrong.. Nighters and will be back when I get here

Well Spoken.

Computers are also weapons...

MMm, is my mind lost?...

Palemoon........well put......

Integrity...loyalty.....and the willingness to make a better world for us all.

lol i feel like watching the "final thought" in Jerry Springer.. lol

but yeah.. well said.. as Sir Isaac Newton once said.. "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.." for some it may be just a game but the reprecusions of such games can cause a lot of harm..

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Today this day I can seek and find info on anything. When in your life did your parent's, school, State, or Goverment become the enemy?

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This was also possible in the early 90's (pre World Wide Web). Once the web became popular, it became full of garbage. It is harder to find decent information now that it was 10 years ago on the internet.

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Windows are fragile can be broken

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Well, thats definatley true (gotta love taking things out of context).

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The desire to learn is good, as to understand, but tell me get away from the computer going to hit you neighbor over the head steal all they have?

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So does that mean that you don't have a problem breaking into a computer as long as no damage is caused? If I gain root access on a government computer, I am learning a lot by doing it. If I hit my neighbor on the head and take his wallet, I don't learn anything (except maybe his driverslicense number and credit card numbers).

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Point is you see a box to use and do what makes this different then saying rolling an old man or womanfor a wallet or purse? For your own gain

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That depends on what you do with the box. Is gaining knowledge a bad thing? If you don't destroy anything or make money off of it, are you truly doing something that is harmful?

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I walk streets everyday am not attacked

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I wish I lived where you do. I don't get attacked everyday, but it does happen on occassion.

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Humm a flaw is like a open zipper after going out of the Can

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Try that at a bar, and someone may just take advantage of it....

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where I have through the 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's learn this history

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Well, I wasn't born until 75, but I do know most of the history of computers. I just never lived a lot of it....

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Computers = people

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No, computers = tools. If I take an old 386 and smash it with a sledge hammer, I haven't harmed anyone. The computer with cancer research should have bakeup tapes. The machine that prints checks just prints checks. The accounting info normally doesn't even sit on the same box.

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Research Data Lost Under Grads entire file system deleted as they watched

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When I went to school, we were warned to keep copies of everything in your personal directorys. The school system was completely backed up. Any student that lost all thier information was just as responsible for that loss.

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Data lost Cancer, AIDS, Downs Syndrone, Fital Acochol Syndrone.

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No tape backups? If they are doing that kind of recearch without backups, then I don't think there results are going to be worth while any way. Power goes out during a file edit, you can loose all the information in that file. If you get a power surge, and it spikes the hard drive just right, you can destroy the reading arms on the drive. Oops, data lost and no hacker resposible. And UPS systems are not 100% reliable.

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Who appointed any of us to scan and then use these systems.

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Actually, I have been employeed to do that a couple of times, and I was asked to by my university on a few different occassions.


Ok, now to clarify. First, I am not a hacker/cracker/script kiddies/ etc. I have NEVER gained access to a machine that I didn't not have permission to. I am an instigator. You do make some very excellent points. I just had a hard time with a few of them. Unless you hack a machine that is being used in laser surgery, and the machine ends up killing the patient, then hacking is in no way comparable to murder. I do not defend hacking. If I did, I wouldn't be as involved in security as I am now. Sometimes, I just like to be a pain in the a55, and show the opposing viewpoint.

Nope no backups they are researchers the box was just a tool to them. So it becomes their fault then again is this not passing another actions of wrong doing on to the other person. It's just like a woman being raped it was her fault it was the way she dressed, it was his fault for walking in this neighborhood that's why I robbed him no one should dress like that and walk down here. Get the general idea?

As for most dot edu systems yes they do internal scans for servers that are not secure but thing is any dept can buy a server plug it in and well now days that is all it takes and about 30 minutes or less for it to be used. Digital car thief oops my car is missing I left the keys in it in my own drive way, it was my fault it was taken.

Hacking and raping are not comparable. One is an action against a person, the other against a tool. I am not trying to blame them for getting hacked. I am blaming them for being a research organization that doesn't properly use their tools. Its like the lady that spilled hot coffee in her lap from McDonalds. Although the court found McDonlads guilty, was it really their fault? The lady was to stupid to drive while holding a cup of coffee. She didn't properly use the cup. The research company was to stupid to properly use their tools. If the power went out on that machine, it was possible for them to loose information also.

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any dept can buy a server plug it in

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That is why companies (and most .edu's) have security policies in place. No one should be setting up a server that the IT department doesn't know about.

Yes computers are tools but people use those tools like any profession, now most computers are networked. Lock picking is a known fact since they have been around, lets see I break into a goverment computer learn lots of stuff but do not change anything. I go into the alley cut pick the lock to the door, notice a trip alarm so I disable this also, go inside the building look through desk drawers everyones stuff, company records. On the way out you enable the alarm and lock the door walking away you learned much this day on how to get into that building. Next day a hidden security camera just picks up your shadow because of low light, but the owner knows you have been there though nothing was lost they spend thousands upgrading their security taking away from everyones anual bonus at Christmas. So your act was at your risk you did not get caught it cost you nothing, but to the place involved you did this two paid for what you see as their mistake? What value is their now to your knowledge, and what wisdom did you really offer and to whom?

Now theres an excellent analogy. Like I said before, I agree, I just like to argue whatever side people are not defending ;) I can't really refute your arguement here, but what the hell, I'll give it a try anyway.... Most "hackers" are not doing anything for knowledge anymore. There are some, but most are just in it for fame. There is a difference.

A lot would depend on the company. Hactivism (hacking for a cause) attacks machines of things they are against. Lets say there is a company in your neighborhood which is known for taking naked pictures of minors, but there is no proof. First of all, you may obtain the proof necessarry (although illegally). Secondly, do you really care that it cost them that much money to fix their security???

Ok, thats just a select group though.

Lets say it is a government building or a .edu building. Yes, school building are easy to get into..haven't tried a government building though. Anyway, the government secures information bassed on value. If you think you have any chance in hell in breaking into Fort Mead (NSA headquarters), then you have to get your head examined. If you break into an army recruiter station though, you may get away with it. But they are not going to spend a lot of money trying to fix it. They are going to set up a new camera watching that door better, and maybe replace the lock. A university is the same way (although not as secure). If you want to get to paper records, its not going to be behind one door. You will have to get in the building, in the right office, and in the right cabinet. A lot more then just getting in the outside door. If they do catch you comming into the building, they MAY put in a camera. It is more likely they will toss a security guard in that building for a week or two, then just forget the incident.

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What value is their now to your knowledge, and what wisdom did you really offer and to whom?

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That depends on the business. You may gain proof about illegal activites. Lets say you get into a DVD manufacture. You may learn how they work. The type of knowledge is bassed on the company. Why does an igloo stay standing? If you get into a company that builds igloos, you may find out that it is because of the "key stone". Yeah, big deal, but if you have been infatued with igloos for years, that may mean a lot to you.


Also, lets say that you do get "seen" and the company does spend 1000's of dollars to upgrade their security. Maybe they should have done that at the FBI Building in Oklahoma City. Yeah, "I" didn't do anything when I broke into their building, but the next person along just destroyed the entire place. So is it better for me to get seen, or to just use crappy security and wait for a "terrorist" to take out the place completely?

Ah then ethics are a part of things after all but in the digital world these ethics colide. Now Hacktivism, ah yes we must define our actions by picking something such as child porn, this activity is open game just like the real world engage in such things you have no defense. Fighting the site is not doing anything more then dealing with the end result not the root cause. This is the question then in Ethics are we looking at the root cause or a result of self centered actions done from a keyboard, cause and effect is no matter how one looks at it the real world and peoples lives are effected by this everyday. Example in the 60's I sttod against the war civil rights, the enviroment, consumer rights. If I in real life come across illigal activity I call the police I do not become judge, and enforcer.

It is a matter of belief and culture while we can look at the result of 9/11 and Oklahoma are we looking at the ROOT cause of such actions? Ask yourself are you reacting or responding in the real world or the digital world. Ethics alone respond, reaction is of fustration, anger, and defense. The end cannot justify the means, after all this built the Berlin Wall and I got to see it built and tore down in my life time :) So is this web now in the process and what role do Ethics play in security upon the web?

Ahh, so now the discusson becomes ethics. Well, if we are gonna discuss ethics, this should be in the cosmos thread ;) Anyway, is it better to sit back and watch, or do your part? Yes, calling the police is all well and good, but sometimes they can't get there in time. If you are in a bank when it is robbed, and the sole robber drops his gun by you, do you take it? Or do you wait for the police to show up? "There are 3 types of people in this world. Those that know what happen, those that want to know what happend, and those that make things happen" Which position do you take?

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ROOT cause of such actions

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How do you adjust the ROOT cause? Do you change the govement so people don't get mad like Oklahoma? Do you outlaw Christianity so the extreamist muslims don't hate us any more?

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reaction is of fustration, anger, and defense

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Anger leads to fear
Fear leads to hate
hate leads to the dark side.
(Sorry couldn't help it)

I'm kind of curious why no one else has gotten involved in this discussion. Other then telling you your first couple of posts were good. What are some other thoughts on this?

I guess some people are just a little more ethically flexible that others. :(

"ethicly flexible" or mabee its just like an intense debate going on and were all afraid to step in the way, watching for the fists to start flying........ thats my guess, thats why im not in on it, besides, i have other "moral flexability" issuse with things other than those that are delt with on this site ;)

Ethics are a part of life lived and learned, what may be my truth may not be yours preception, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching those 5 senses only you know of the people in your life share that preception with you. I seek to understand how one justify's breaking into a box that they do not own, and understand cwk9 how ones preception and ethics say it is alright. LoggOff am not starting a fight and I hope that no swings will be tossed. I started a thread on Ethics on how I defend against intrusions, and like any mind seek to understand the Ethics of a break into computer person. As for "ethicly flexible" well lets see I met a woman 18 years ago fell in love, never occured to me she was not of my race. Love is that way and it is good it is. Humm to look at me one might say I am one way, for me I know 5 generations including the present of my own family. When I looked to my father, mother, grand parents great grand parents I saw people I loved not a race. Each of their histories I know well, of my wife's history her family I also know cause I am seen as family. This web brings many famlies together and goverments may have their own direction. Ethics play an important role out here as much as they do in real life. Soulman thanks and I do not know why few respond guess it comes down to in order to deal with stuff you first have to face it, nd well I get to post here is a privlage not a right, and lots of young smart minds this box[] called a computer is liked anything else in life part of anothers life you seperate whom you are out here and what you are in life you short change yourself. One grows old only when they stop asking questions...so this has been mine. I compare digital actions to my real world and seek to understand how the two differ and what Ethics are involved.

yeah i realise that theres not gonna be a fight, it was just an alanogy, i know theres nothing malitius ment by any of it. as for the thing with your wife, im my humble oppinion (about love this one goes quite extensivly) they say love is blind, and im a total beiver in it. you fall in love with someone of a different race or culture good for you, you found love, lucky bastard, now, mind giving me a hand at it :D

good post, i actually read it... instead of skimming

thumbs up

Sure LoggOff, know lots of pretty young smart women youngs they have a mind of their own, and well they have famlies and being accepted into their depends upon you. Ever visit Asia let me know lol. Culture is also good funny thing though when my wife and I visit her home land even she now is called an American....go figure funny outside the US color plays no role it is oh you are from America, and yes at times I get embarrassed seeing how Americans trash a local culture. Ethics touch many aspects in ones life as our own conduct, simple concept a virus writers spawned a billion dollar industry the outwit them all the time they make nothing while the viri company smiles says I got to renew my supscription costs $. Who did the virus author damage, end user and whom profited the virus protection company, end user =0$, virus author =0$ Antivirus company $1 bill plus. Where are the ethics there?

I find it odd that so many are wishing to persue computer security issues and yet this thread sort of went out of site. So you want to be in computer security and yet when faced with how you gain your knowledge am I to then understand then that Ethics play no part of the security issues? After all the Web was made by agreement betwen the dot gov and dot edu's public domain, what is called public property. Take TV and the Airwaves they are supposed to give back the part of the spectrum no longer used because of the digital mandate, think they will give them back to the public? Not on your life, MS did not arrive on the web until 1997 again public domain, yet now they think they own it. The old use it long enough it is yours thing. AOL well the web would be like a mall to go buy buy. Then the human genes lol again public funded but someone owns the rights now through patients. Ethis play a big part in life every aspect I believe, much of our lands now belong to not people but goverments and corps that using their market power come to believe they own the rights. So in security do we build a empire in battles that we invent our self? Virus writters give Virus scanning companys a reason to be. Ethics say what then change the world one person at a time or make as much money as you can and let everyone else suffer? Sad really so many smart young minds here and me well can say is my life is not one area everything I do works into everything else I do all of it together make me. Not to dis anyone like I said just older and see a mind set I myself cannot concieve out here at times.

Wow! A mouthfull and a half to say the least!

Definately a lot of thought put into this, Palemoon... You got my vote as the next president! :)

The way I look at it is a little more cut and dry (at least in presentation), so /me humbly enters discussion...

To me, an internet connection is no different than my front door or the windows in my house. All are "windows" or "paths" to the outside world. If a person breaks into my computer (for whatever reason), it is no different than someone breaking into my house (for whatever reason). Does it matter which window they gain access through? Does it matter if they break through the front door or the back?

Sure, I can put locks on my doors and windows. I can travel to the nearest village, find a world-famous electronics vendor, and trade a few dubloons for a security system (For that matter, I can build my own security system. It's not like they're complicated). That's no different than going out an buying into McAffee firewall (ethically speaking, of course! :)) In the same manner, it's no different than installing *BSD or Linux and building my own firewall. The point is that I don't want people coming into my house whether it be through my front door, my window, or my Internet connection. The point is that I want a reasonable amount of safety and security both for myself and for my loved ones.

Of course, locks and bolts can be compromised... Someone who knows what they are doing can pass these obsticles with a trivial amount of ease. And so it is with network "locks and bolts." Sure, it's going to turn most away at the simple realization that there are those obsticles, but it won't turn everyone away. If someone has a mind to break into my house, they're going to do it no matter what.

Even surpassing what I've already said... Even if my door is wide open and my curtains are swaying with the breeze, does that give anyone (anyone ) the right to enter my house without my consent? The answer is a pure, simple, and definitive "No! " Not morally, not ethically, and so it should follow suit legally without exception.

Smash your own computer and all you've lost is a tool (outdated or not) for your own means. That is your right if you so choose because it is your right to your means. As for "breaking and entering" into a computer through it's connection to the outside world (whether it be someone's personal computer or a vast system run by an institution), it's still "breaking and entering" and it is not right.

To pursue that point even further, taking information, deleting information, learning information that does not apply to you is stealing, defacing, and evesdropping. No... These things are not moral. They are not ethical... Neither should they be legal simply because "the door was open," "the locks weren't good enough," "I was mad, so I had to get even," or even "I wanted to learn." Bottom line (IMHO) is simply this... if you don't have permission, then you have no business whatsoever "breaking and entering." If you don't have permission, it's stealing, defacing, and/or evesdropping.

I think that the point Palemoon was trying to make (which I applaud) is that it should be the criminal that pays the dues... Not the victim(s). And just "cuz" something can be done doesn't mean that it's okay to do it... Not without the authoritative consent.

Again... Great post, Palemoon...

/me stands in applaud with tears in my eyes. :)

Rev

sorry that post was so long, but I didn't know how to cut anything else out without taking away from the point...

Rev

Rev thanks, LOL we at least have the same wind so to speak. But I as you I am sore want to learn about why this tool called a computer is used as it is. I mean kids to drive in the US now have to attend driving school, I did and even now in this state those licenses are being further restricted between 16 to 18 in hours and so many other ways. So we have all these high power tools with some of the biggest Dot Com's dismissing their power to make their bucks. Used common public property and claim it as their own, in turn I see smart people use what is not their's because they feel it is their right cause they know computers. So Ethics quetion is just because you know how to use a computer and you have since 5 how and why is it your right to use computer systems owned by others. After all most of our OS's license agreements absolve the producer of any wrong doing and no consumer rights. Because I own a computer and am on the web did I click away my right to prevent you from using my system. Page views and posts are way out of line. Are you people thinking, do not understand, or say oops never thought of that?

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...most of our OS's license agreements absolve the producer of any wrong doing and no consumer rights.

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I agree completely... Software vendors should be treated no differently than food venders in that respect... If a gallon of milk has gone sour, I take it back to the store and get my money back (removing the lid should not prevent me from getting my money back... I earned that money, and someone who seals and delivers sour milk should not deny that. They didn't earn the money, so they must give it back.

On a further note, how am I going to know if that milk is sour or not without first opening and taking a good "whiff?" What if a company bottles milk with a statement, "You cannot drink this milk unless you have read the aggreement under the lid." and when you do not agree with the "agreement," you cannot take it back because the lid has been removed? What your stuck with is a bottle of milk that you can't drink and that you can't take back... That is ludicrous. M$ is run by lawyers (the bad kind), not programmers. This is one (only one, mind you) of the reasons I will not buy a product put out by Microsoft anymore. This is also why I will do my best to encourage others to learn better operating systems.

Microsoft doesn't even deserve the money I gave them in the first place (and yes, I tried to take Win 95 back) let alone the second and third... Why should I continue to cast my pearls before swine? They won't change so I must... But that's okay with me, because I'm a better person for it (as well as more knowledgable). They will never amount to the power and stability of *NIX (they can't) so why settle for second best (or third or fourth...)? ("The truth shall set you free. ")

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Because I own a computer and am on the web did I click away my right to prevent you from using my system.

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Absolutely not. The day that this kind of assenine thinking is added to an agreement of an ISP service is the day that I either change ISPs or tell them to get their cable out of my walls... The Internet (however grande) is no substitute for privacy or security. Privacy and security are fundamental rights... The internet is nothing more than a tool (like a telephone... If someone bugs your phone or manipulates your service to accept longs distance bills, your rights are violated... The day that becomes acceptible is the day I burn my phones. I don't mind being a hermit... I mind my rights being violated. :))

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Page views and posts are way out of line. Are you people thinking, do not understand, or say oops never thought of that?

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I'm not sure what you mean by this, so I won't assume...

If you mean that sites like AO should not exist, than you are absolutely wrong... AO isn't about violating another individual's rights. It's about learning how to protect your rights.

If you mean the existance of personal web services available to the outside world, I have to disagree again... Anyone can have an "open house" or a "garage sale." That is their right. If they don't want a specific person in their "house," then they have the right to make them leave. If they want to have an open house for an hour or 10 years, that is their right as well. There is no violation of rights here... BUT... IF those rights are violated, then the person who has the site has every right to exercise his right to have a person (or group of persons ousted charged in legal persuit). It is against the law to violate anyone's rights (however which way you do it).

Cool lines of thought, BTW... :)

Rev