Balancing attitude

I wrote this post in a reply on a thread in which someone created a dummy account on which everyone could dump negative points, in order to balance out their antipoint-status. Somewhere between reading that post and writing this answer, that thread dissapeared. I think it was titled "Balancing Antipoints" or something close to it.

Even now that the thread has dissapeared, I wish to express my feelings on the sudden antipoint rage - partly because I think I have a valid point, partly because I spent 15 minutes typing this text.

__________________

Hmm... although this is a clever find, I wonder if it will do any good in the end. Consider my case, for example.

I agree that I have neg'ed way to few people. I did not see any harm in not-neg'ing, and figured that JP and the moderators would filter out the bad apples in the community. After reading the 'balance is key' notification, and the discussions caused by it, I must say JP has a point.

On several occasions, JP told us that the antipoint system included numberous balances and checks in the form of different algoritmes. Why stress those by starting to create 'kick-me!' accounts? Although seemingly innocent, you could be disrupting some parts of the antipoint systems by trying to balancing your antipoints the quick way. Instead, try to adjust your antipoint-behaviour. Your balance will come, eventually.

Another unrelated but unwanted effect of this new balance-rage is that some newbie who askes just one wrong question as almost instandly banned from the system, as illustrated by the 'Balancing Time!' posts that are appearing. Like I said, don't search for posts you can dump your neg's, just adjust your spending behaviour.

__________________
Added June 11th, 10:11 GMT
This is a note to one of (anonymous) persons that assigned me antipoints, you know who you are. You are either completely ignorant or the brilliantly sarcastic. I had a good laugh. Oh, and forget about that "I wish to contact you" thingy, I was merely trying to get this message across.

Well, I am getting pretty sick of seeing antipoint threads again, but you make some very good points, and I definately agree with you. How many times have you givin antipoints to a decent thread? I am not talking about a really good thread, but just something that you agree with. For every time you have done that, I am sure there has been at least one time that you could have given negative points to a thread that was just a little bad. The point is, to become balanced, you just have to stop giving points to ok threads. Only give out the points when they are actually deserved.

I agree Souleman... Im also seeing a lot of negs flying around on posts that arent really that bad, and getting the neg signed with "sorry, I have to get balanced, so I dumped this on you..." That also seems to defeat the intention that JP probably had. If you want to get into the "balanced" area, follow the advice of the wise people in this post and stop tossing negs around blindly and without reason just to get "balanced".
My two cents.
(Im also getting tired of the "abuse" or "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah" whining threads.

Avenger

"sorry, I have to get balanced, so I dumped this on you..."

"Balance", indeed.

Indictment and repression of judgement and inclination to our freedom of purpose, in truth.

Zero is wonderful.

Ouroboros

I recall reading Guus's post, and I believe someone created a user named antibalace, but I guess it got dumped with so many antipoints that the nwe systems booted it within 24 hours

One word: KARMA

Kindred69

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Ouroboros
"sorry, I have to get balanced, so I dumped this on you..."

Indictment and repression of judgement and inclination to our freedom of purpose, in truth.


Ouroboros

---

Brilliant. If I may add to that- Yes, AntiOnline is a community. Decide for yourself which community it resembles....


de·moc·ra·cy Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1.Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2.A political or social unit that has such a government.
3.The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
4.The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.



dic·ta·tor·ship Pronunciation Key (dk-ttr-shp, dkt-)
n.

1.The office or tenure of a dictator.
2.A state or government under dictatorial rule.
3.Absolute or despotic control or power.



I think it's very clear which path the site is heading down...... :mad:

I think this is only gunna last for a little while. Once people get balanced all this neg points going around will stop and things will be back to normal.. just give it time my friends.

xmadness is right, it's been like 1 day since the implementation, let's leave it alone and see what turns out.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Conf1rm3d_K1ll
I think it's very clear which path the site is heading down...... :mad:

---

I've said it before:
No, antionline is not a democracy. And no, this is not a problem. No one forced you to come to antionline. You were not born into antionline, antionline does not provide you with essential humanitarian services. (for most of us non-addicts, anyway) If you don't like how it's run, you can leave. That's how the internet works.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by thesecretfire

I've said it before:
No, antionline is not a democracy.

---

Damn right. It's a harsh Dictatorship!;)

Quote:

---

No one forced you to come to antionline.

---

You're right again! I choose to come here of my own free will. I didn't recieve a message on some website saying "We have detected that you don't visit AntiOnline enough. You will recieve this notice untill you change your way off thinking enough to please us."

Quote:

---

Antionline does not provide you with essential humanitarian services.

---

LOL.You're right again! But I think we as the members make the site what it is. We don't get much out of the site but we do put a hell of alot into it. To be honest, that's the way I like it. I don't want anything from AO, except the ability to assign antipoints however the hell I like.

Quote:

---

If you don't like how it's run, you can leave. That's how the internet works.

---

Another great point. You're on a roll today. ;) You must be on some kind of "brain tonic"...Sorry to dissapoint, but I'm not going anywhere. You'll see me around here for a long time to come....I find it very sad that whenever someone thinks a little differently the solution always seems to be "leave"......Anyway, that's the last of my complaining about this whole "balance" thing....




Ouroboros- Brilliant signature!

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by thesecretfire

I've said it before:
No, antionline is not a democracy. And no, this is not a problem. No one forced you to come to antionline. You were not born into antionline, antionline does not provide you with essential humanitarian services. (for most of us non-addicts, anyway) If you don't like how it's run, you can leave. That's how the internet works.

---

And since AntiOnline is not a democracy, that makes it immune to rebellion and energy to change? I fully realize that I can leave anytime that I want to...just stop typing in the link, yeah?. But...much to my confusion...I still love coming to this site and learning the things that I do, and enjoy the time that I spend here....BUT, don't expect me to collapse into a structure that I find to be irrational and unnecessary. Part of supporting things that you enjoy include rebelling against things that you see as flaws in it, in order to make it better. The invisible wall that exists here is the one that surrounds the Administrator of this site... Heaven forbid that anyone gives negative feedback to the 'will of the admin'. That's bullshit, even less than it is weak on the part of the dissenting opinion. Turbulence brings change, always. Thoughts like "if you don't like it, leave" are both ignorant and dismissive, and in themselves, WEAK.
If you like the AP system, fine...then find some passion to support it. If you don't, fine...find some passion to deride it. The same rule applies in everyday life, with EVERY issue in mind. I get so TIRED of hearing people say, "Well...that's just the way it is.", and leave it at that. In that case...YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN WHEN THE ISSUE AT HAND F**KS YOU IN THE A**. But wait...that is the time that the Sheep say, "This sucks...how come somebody didn't say anything or do anything to prevent this". IDIOTS, all of those who don't bother to bring confrontations to bear and defend themselves and/or their thoughts.
If you wish to fight for the upholding of something, anything...or the discarding of something, anything...you had damn well better SAY SOMETHING about it.
Strictly to the concept of AntiPoints...here on www.AntiOnline.com ...I have seen nothing but "Hey, it sucks but deal with it", and "Hey, it's fine with me". Bullshit...it has become an ISSUE here. If you question the topic, if you choose to become involved in any way...be F**king prepared to defend your position, whether for, or against. I'm sick of the pussyfooting around in fear of disgruntling the 'admins' and the 'moderators' in relation to what comes down to a structural policy that tells EVERY user what they can and can't do, and otherwise is inclined to shape their behavior and judgement.

Everyone knows where I stand...but I know nothing about where anyone (aside from a few) stands, in relation to this arguement.
Either ignore it, and post about the issues that this site was founded for (security, forensics, programming, etc), AND/OR post about these issues (AntiPoints, "PR", 'Community Function'). As with both categories...prepare to defend your position, support your arguements, have some knowledge, etc, just like one would see in the myriad of tutorials and posts spread around in the forums. This 'member privileges and responsibilities' bullshit is not an isolated issue...

Think.

Ouroboros

Well, Personally I think that its you thats making it an issue. I really don't care about the system. I don't let it change who I am. I'll say what I want to say, if you don't like it, so be it. You can't please all the people all the time, so I suggest you stop trying. The ap's are a way to express whether you like what someone said or not. Its just like life. When in life does someone not judge you on what you say, or how you act? Why should it be any different here? If I went to a bar and started acting like an ass, people are gunna let me know. They might say, "Hey, Stop being an *******!" or if I say something that they agreed with they might buy me a beer. Such is life, deal with it.

You're missing the whole point.

Sure, people judge you and you judge them in real life. But, you aren't told how to judge them and you don't recieve a message telling you that you've been judging people wrongly and better change your way of thinking...It's pretty ****ing simple to follow.


Before trying to argue...at least try and grasp my point of view.....

Guys -

I have avoided this quagmire of nonsense for a while, but now I feel like I must speak....

Antionline is a biz, its how JP makes his dough. I think we all know that kiddiots make the site look bad a drive away the good people that make this site worth coming to, also reducing its value to JP. His solution? Use antipoints to help him gague who is being a total idiot, and get rid of them. Now we are all nice guys, we don't use the neg button enough, and kiddiots start to abound. JP is getting tired of stupidity, so he writes a program and new policy designed to help the situation. Now you either have to give more negs, or make your pos. more selective....

Now I don't know that this is what JP has been thinking about, but its reasonable and so is he....so stop whining about how much this system sucks, and lets start talking about security again....

Speaking of....anyone here have any thoughts on wireless security? Big challange in the 8012.b sector....

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by xmaddness
Well, Personally I think that its you thats making it an issue.

---

Yes...that has been established.

Quote:

---

I really don't care about the system. I don't let it change who I am. I'll say what I want to say, if you don't like it, so be it. You can't please all the people all the time, so I suggest you stop trying.

---

Neither do I, ultimately...but I will NOT stop trying to change that which I see as unnecessary and irrelevant.

Quote:

---

The ap's are a way to express whether you like what someone said or not. Its just like life. When in life does someone not judge you on what you say, or how you act? Why should it be any different here? If I went to a bar and started acting like an ass, people are gunna let me know. They might say, "Hey, Stop being an *******!" or if I say something that they agreed with they might buy me a beer.

---

And posting "Hey! Stop being an *******!" became lost when the AP system was incarnated...thus degrading thoughts and ideas and rebuttals to the concept of colored dots (the kick in the shins being the red dot, and the pint of Guinness being the green dot), when I could just as easily impart those encouragements/recriminations in words alone.

Quote:

---

Such is life, deal with it.

---

That's the problem, EXACTLY. Stop challenging opposing ideas, and accept a fate (a repression of free-will) that someone else has ordained for you. (It's obvious that AnitPoints won't kill anyone, but bear with the concept).

Ouroboros

im just sick of stupid people negging me for no reason....

If you have antipoints you probly deserve them... But when u gotta take cheap shots at people to make urself look better its pretty sad and thats how you know YOU are NOT needed HERE!

Netsyn, I clearly agree with that. Ourboros, you make a lot of good points, and confirmed kill, you managed to say in your last post EXACTLY waht I was trying to, THANKS! :)

I wish I saw this post earlier to express my views... :(

I support this "Balance Is Key" thing, but I'm not going to go tossing negs (anymore - how I regret my first neg...). So my impact on people's AP decreases a little bit when I decide to give them to people I feel deserver AP. There aren't many trouble-makers here, and if there are any, they'd be silenced by people who know them best. I trusted the system to keep the community safe from them, but the system now trusts us... What could be more ironic?


Consider this in real life:
There is a guy named HappyGoLucky. He talks good of EVERY SINGLE PERSON he meets. At first, people really listen to him. They think that the person is really good. Then, they realize that HappyGoLucky talks good of EVERYBODY! His views conflict with what a few other people think, but he is a good man none the less. Eventually, since he is so forgiving and lenient in giving away encouragement, people start to mistrust him. "How can a guy be so carefree?" His opinions of others is now considered less important than other's opinions of them.

The other side of the coin:
A guy named EvilMasta disses every single person he meets. At first, he is dissing the people who every body hates. His opinion is considered what the people really want. Then, he goes overboard, and flames EVERYBODY. EvilMasta is then hated by people, but other than that, he is a decent person. His opinion of people falls to what the other people think of them.

Then, "Balance":
sensei (teacher) is opinionated. If he doesn't like it, he tells people. No keeping it inside. If he likes it, he freely talks of it. He is not scared of the world. People look up to him because of his firm beliefs. His opinion is valued more than HappyGoLucky and EvilMasta, because he will tell you exactly what he wants.


I realize that this is hard to achieve balance considering that we promote good, useful posts from members, and that many members follow that general guideline. The trouble makers are either reformed, or are banned. Everybody wants their kick. Why not just hold back the urge, and keep doing what you want to do. If we never had that 20+ line thing after we log on, we probably would have never known anything about this feature. I will continue to support members good posts, etc., but I am annoyed by that large thing explaining your best course of action. I want that message GONE! It makes for extra scrolling to find content. I hope that the system thinks that it is hopeless to curve me back to balance, and will leave me be, upon my own path..., branching off from the others..., doing as I may...

I wonder if I anticipated such a thing happening when I wrote my quote a few months ago...? Another question for Cosmos... :D

-Tim_axe

I think too many people assign unnecessary points. I have been here since this AntiPoint BS started. I think the system works well. Though I hardly give points out. When I find a really bad post or flame war I give people negs...when I see a good post I give them positives, no matter who they are. The problem is everyone around here gets in these cliche's and you can tell who they are. THere are people on here who barely talk and have more positives/negative then people who give good solid input. If people just stopped trying to help their friends or butter up people Antipoints would be great. Just like any system though, this is a system we all use to rate others. So if you choose not to start giving negs, your points are worth less, well all of you who don't want to balance out, don't really care about the system. Second, if you don't care, why mess with AP then, you could just stop using them, wouldn't that be a statement. AO has had AP for as long as many people have been here, if you despise them so much, create your own forums or find a better one.

I don't see the point in all the bitching really, this is just like everything else. Next thing you'll all being asking for AntiPoint recounts......

If I may interject. AO is definately not a democracy but neither is it a dictatorship. You might call it more a meritocracy:

Quote:

---

From Dictionary.com

mer·i·toc·ra·cy
n. pl. mer·i·toc·ra·cies
1. A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.
2. A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement.
3. Leadership by such a group.

---

People receive points based on the things they bring into the community, whether it is general knowledge, specific knowledge or humourous input.

Quote:

---

Louie said

THere are people on here who barely talk and have more positives/negative then people who give good solid input.

---

As one of those people who pops in and occassionally yaps, sometimes its worthwhile to read what goes on without replying. One need not reply to every single freakin' post to make a good point. Sometimes one post is enough and it has a profound enough effect.

The reason why I dislike people who rant about democratic forums is that I've seen it so many times before on several different forums, and in the past it's usually been from newbs that got banned after flaming...the history just gives it a negative feeling in my mind.

Also, It's not necessarily a harsh dictatorship. If all of the senior members decided they hated something that JP did, it'd probably change. And you have to hope that community feelings make an impact on the leader. You mention contributions, and you have a point: Antionline depends on members for it's content. However, at the end of the day JP is fielding the dough for the site and he can decide what to do with it.

Given that debating "AO: A democracy?" should be left for the cosmos forum (maybe I'll start a thread), I'll respond to the topic at hand.

First off, everywhere you look is a balance. Your car is a compromise of safety and features. (Depending on where you live) The police keep you relatively safe while still giving you a reasonable amount of privacy. I could go on, but the gist of it is that balances are good.

However, can this be extended on to assigned AP's? Possibly not. If everyone is balanced, it assumes a situation where there are as many people deserving negs as there are deserving greenies. Only in very seldom cases where the kiddiot population explodes is this true. All the other times, most people make posts that deserve neither, with several that deserve greenies, and far fewer that deserve negs. If the balance system continues, the way greens are assigned will change, and you will have to do more to earn them. Maybe a good thing, maybe not.

There have been many VERY good points made on both sides...I can see why JP implemented this system-to control the stupid people more (just think how bad it was before the point system-can anyone say Hans?)...
I think I'm going to have to say that overall I don't like the new balance system, but I'm not going to leave AO due to it...
I believe that the balance system will constrict how the discussion forums will run (mostly I'm afraid of poeple getting negs that don't deserve them). Once we get rid of all the 'stupid people'-what then? Are we going to start neging people for decent posts? I believe that once all the 'stupid people' are gone, we're going to have to, because we won't have anyone else left to neg....
Just my 2 cents........

There will always be kiddiots and stupid people tho.... *sigh*

:) Thanks for all of the input, everyone...it's a lot more than I expected. Most times, these forum-operation debates just snuff themselves out due to lack of responses.
In my opinion, the best (personal) solution is to follow Louie's advice, and stop clicking on that confounded "Assign Positive or Negative Points..." link, and ignore the 'Points' altogether. Not to say that I give up on my position on the topic, but it seems unlikely that it will change anytime soon. Bothers the hell out of me to GIVE UP on the arguement, but to continue arguing about it would only serve to disrupt a site which I truly enjoy by filling it with unreconcilable opinions and arguments.
I guess that's why the option to use it or not has always been there...just a mouse click between the two options.
Once again, thanks for all of the input...Imaginary 'greenies' for everyone :)

Ouroboros