Just wanted to see what you guys think....

I have been seeing a lot about this on the news, and I wanted to check and see what you guys think...thought it might be interesting.


Airlines under fire for making large passengers buy two tickets
06/19/2002

Associated Press


DALLAS - Southwest Airlines is under fire from overweight passengers, who are charged for two tickets if they spill over into their neighbor's seat.

The airline says it is trying to provide a comfortable flight for travelers seated next to large passengers.

"We sell seats, and if you consume more than one seat, you have to buy more than one seat," said Beth Harbin, a Southwest spokeswoman.

Advocates for the obese are outraged.

"It's just discriminatory and it's mean-spirited," said Morgan Downey, executive director of the American Obesity Association. "This is singling out a group that's been very heavily stigmatized rather than making some accommodations in their cabins."



Downey and other advocates for the obese say Southwest and other carriers should make wider seats because Americans are getting larger; the Centers for Disease Control estimates that more than one-fourth of Americans are obese.
Southwest, whose seats are 183/4 inches wide, does not weigh or measure passengers. Ticket agents can "make a judgment call" and ask an obese person whether he or she usually takes up more than one seat, Harbin said. If the answer is yes, the person is asked to buy two seats, although the passenger can get a refund later if the flight is not sold out, the airline spokeswoman said.

Southwest said there is nothing new in its handling of obese passengers. Harbin said the carrier has followed the same policy since 1980, although employees were reminded of the policy as the carrier began switching this week to a new automated boarding pass instead of its old, familiar plastic passes.

Several other carriers have similar policies, including United and Continental. Northwest Airlines allows the passenger to buy the second seat at the same price paid for the first seat rather than a more expensive last-minute rate.

"That's a compromise, and we're coming quite a ways with that. It's a very difficult issue," said Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch.

Delta does not require obese passengers to buy a second ticket and tries to handle complaints by moving passengers to empty seats or other flights, a spokeswoman said. American Airlines did not immediately return calls for comment.

Walter Lindstrom, a San Diego attorney whose firm specializes in representing obese clients with complaints against health carriers and employers, said the airlines policy could be legal but is wrong.

"You're buying passage from point A to point B, and they have a duty to accommodate you regardless whether it's one seat or two," Lindstrom said.

Lindstrom said the double-charge is part of a pattern that includes flight attendants who ridicule obese passengers. He said one flight attendant made a public display of dangling a seat belt extender in front of a large woman who needed one.

"People of size hate to travel," he said.

Southwest said its double-ticket policy on obese passengers was prompted by complaints from other travelers. Harbin, the airline spokeswoman, said nine out of 10 letters to customer service come from passengers who were crowded by large neighbors.

The airlines said they don't know how many times an obese passenger is required to buy two tickets, but they consider it rare. Downey, the leader of the obesity association, said he had not received complaints from members.

Downey said his group was considering legal action or asking Congress to prohibit the two-ticket policy. He said the airlines, and many Americans, think obese people could lose weight by eating less or exercising more "when scientifically, it's much more complicated."

Researchers cite genetics, bad eating habits and a sedentary lifestyle among the causes of obesity.

"Obesity is a multifaceted issue. There are physical factors like hormones, but there are also environmental factors because the rate of obesity has grown dramatically in the last 20 years," said Corinne Borel, a spokeswoman for the North American Association for the Study of Obesity.

The group, which represents researchers, is pushing for more federal funding for research into obesity, which it calls the second leading preventable cause of death among Americans, after smoking.

Link: http://www.dallasnews.com/latestnews....516c2065.html

I think it's terrible...cabs don't do this, buses don't do this...no one else does this. Why should people be punished? What a load of crap.

Deb :D

well here's what i think:
if they are actually going to take up two seats, then yes they should pay for two seats. if they are reasonably only going to take one seat(in other words if as long as they arent going to be squishing the person next to them, provided that will be a person they dont know).

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"You're buying passage from point A to point B, and they have a duty to accommodate you regardless whether it's one seat or two," Lindstrom said.

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well, actually you are buying a SEAT on a plane that is going from one place to annother.

Well lets see last international flight I took my 6 year old his little butt took up 2/3 of his seat, mine and I got a skinny butt was full as my 16 year old. Sure pay for two seats but lets first make sure how wide those seats are, look to ergo standards and my office chair is 2 inchesj wider then any airline coach seat. Don't ask about my wife is not fat nor skinny just an average woman at 50.

It is sad how we do things some times. There is so many ways to look at this. I will just drop a short note on it. yes there job is to get people from one place to the other but at the same time they have to try to get as many people on the plane as they can to cover there overhead.
When I use to work at a fast mart store some times people would come in and buy a drink and get two cups one with nothing in it so that they could pour some of the drink in it for there kid. But we had to make them pay full price for both cups. So what I am saying is you pay for the cups not whats in it. Because the cup cant be used to sale to others just like the plane set. If the person is taking up two sets then that is money lots to the air line. it is all about the money. Most of the time if a person thank they can make an extra dollor some where or save a penny they will do it.


zuriel

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Well lets see last international flight I took my 6 year old his little butt took up 2/3 of his seat

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This is kind of my point....did you only get to pay 2/3 of the price?

Deb :D

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Originally posted here by debwalin
This is kind of my point....did you only get to pay 2/3 of the price?

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well that other 1/3 of a seat isnt usable for the airline. the extra seat, however IS.

if sombody is going to take up 2 seats and they only pay for 1 ticket the airline is loosing money because they could have sold that seat to sombody else.

The problem here is, 65 percent of Americans are obese.
And the other problem here is there's not enough damn room on a plane for a non-obese person to sit.

I have enough problems sitting in a 17 inch seat for 5 hours on a flight to California. I'm 5'4" and 112 pounds...and I have no room. There just isn't enough room in those seats for even the smaller people to sit. You have no leg room, no room to extend your arms...and if you're claustrophobic, you have no choice but to have an insane trip to your destination. Maybe it's not the size of the person that should matter here, maybe it's the size of the seats. The average American can not afford to travel first class to have the luxury of sitting in leather armchairs with enough leg room to accomodate them. Most people, like myself, are crammed together in coach.

So maybe instead of trying to take money from 65 percent of Americans, they should think about the size of their seats. Since there's not enough room, then I would advise putting less seats on the plane which in turn would solve their obesity problem. And space the damn things out a little more. I don't have a gut and it seems as if the person in front of me is always two inches from the rest of my body. NOT ENOUGH ROOM!

but you see, GG, the problem with your suggestion of having less seats also makes the airline make less money. that makes the airline have to fire people("down size"), or more likely, makes the airline charge more money. all so that the extreme of the obese don't have to pay a bit more because they take up more than one seat.

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The problem here is, 65 percent of Americans are obese.

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well i think that is a bad statistic, but i'll go with it.

ok, so that would mean that more than 1 out of every 2 peope in the US is over weight. however, the number of people who would require two seats on an airplane to fit is NOWHERE NEAR 1 out of every 2. infact, i doubt its even 1 out of 10 people that are so huge that they need a second seat.

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I have enough problems sitting in a 17 inch seat for 5 hours on a flight to California. I'm 5'4" and 112 pounds...and I have no room.

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hey, i feel you there, i'm 6'1", so i definatly know about the lack of space(particularly leg room), but i still dont feel i should be made to pay more(which is what would happen if they had less seats on planes) just so the few people who are grossly overweight dont have to pay a bit more for taking up more space.

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Ticket agents can "make a judgment call" and ask an obese person whether he or she usually takes up more than one seat, Harbin said. If the answer is yes, the person is asked to buy two seats, although the passenger can get a refund later if the flight is not sold out, the airline spokeswoman said.

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What do they do, get out the measuring tape? This is nuts. They should at least provide a section of the plane that has bigger seats for larger people and pregnent women etc. Everyone should have the right to fly in comfort.

I've got an idea! How about putting the the obese person beside a kid? The kid can give up 1/3 of his seat to the obese person....if we alternate and go: kid | bigguy | kid then the big guy gets an extra 2/3 of a seat and now everyone is happy!
well, except the guy sitting in between two kids maybe....

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Originally posted here by GreekGoddess
The problem here is, 65 percent of Americans are obese.

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LOL....You only have to watch Ricki Lake to see that. I don't think I've ever seen a guest that isn't overweight! Damn hoochi momma's.....



GG> Nice signature............

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cabs don't do this, buses don't do this

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cabs charge by the mile. Busses charge by boarding the bus. Airplances charge by the seat. My cousin just came back from Colorado with her son. She had to purchase a childs ticket. The boy is about 4 months old, and did not use a seat. He rode on her lap the entire time. The point is, she had to pay for the seat, because it was possible that he would use it. Airlines don't charge by the mile, they charge by how many seats you need.

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The problem here is, 65 percent of Americans are obese.

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That depends on your defination of obese... Yes americans weigh more then the average of any other nation, because we are also the laziest nation. But look at what they consider obese. I saw an article once that said a man that was 5' 8" and over 170 pounds was obese... yet 150 to 160 is the "ideal weight."

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There just isn't enough room in those seats for even the smaller people to sit.

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This is the real problem. Most of the seats are just so dang small that you can't sit comfortably. I weigh less then 150, and I agree that those seats are to small... The other problem though is that the airlines are already loosing money. Especailly with gas prices going up, and people flying less since 9/11. If the airlines change the seats and/or charge on a per person basis instead, then the price of tickets is going to go up a LOT.

Meh...imo I think if you take up two seats, you pay for two seats. But then again, being on planes at least once every year, I must admit they are rather small.

Let say, hypothetically, that a 'team' of 250 "big" people (who each take up two seats) get on a liner that can seat a massive 500 horde of noisy passangers. Now... how would you like it if you can't make it to a festivity or family reunion, because all the seats were filled up, but only half the passangers were seated. Now, how would you like being the owner, or manager, of this airline, and seeing that you lost 50% OF YOUR MONEY EARNED, JUST because people are obese - something you have no control over.

Just my two cents.

Well, as a fairly big person (6' 200 lbs) but not fat, I would welcome some kind of a system to where I am not expected to be squished for a four hour plane fight because some shameless person just can't lay off the extra big macs. I have had to ride in cross-continental plane flights stuck in a two seat section of a row and been literally pinned against the wall of the plane (you talking about making for a long flight). Many of the planes I have flown on in the last year are so full (flights have been cut back) that they are nothing more than glorified cattle cars (and hence making it impossible for me to take a different seat). If they were required to purchase another seat, it might be a little harder to find open seats, but at least when I did, I would know that there is no chance of being expected to sit in 1/2 of an already ludicrously small seat for 4 hours +.

Just my two cents worth...

Neb

I realize that many people think obesity is some kind of DNA malfunction. By accomadating people like that and making it OK to be fat just contributes to the problem. It's just like how one person sues a company and then everyone else follows suit. I have to say I was getting fat, but I reflected that my 6 cans of Pepsi, an Asiago cheese bagel w/ cream cheese with a pop, A huge deli sandwich with a malt and cheese sticks, and then for dinner eating half a pizza w/ cheese sticks was just not healthy. This doesn't count any beer or anything else that I was also drinking during the day. Everything is about will power. If your content being a fatass then pay the price. Nothing wrong with being a tub of lard, but its just like are you going to bitch when you have to replace your shocks and struts on your car twice as much as me cause you chose to be fat.....

OK I think I am done...

Being a 'larger' individual (No, my ass is not so big that I need 2 seats) I feel for the people who will have to pay extra. But then again, nobody is forcing them to fly.

On another note though, if you have a kid even if they take up 2/3 of a seat I don't think you should get a discount for that either. It's like renting a car, just because you only use half of it, or don't use it the full day, you still pay full price.

Well if being large will cost you the price of two seats, I wonder what it costs to buy 1 seat but then in first/business class, wich has plenty of room.

What about pregnancy though? Some women gain quite a bit of weight. Now according to most airlines, a 23 month year old baby or less is free. So if a pregnant woman happens to take up two seats because she's carrying a baby, does she get charged too? (the 23 month rule applies if the baby is sitting on your lap....this baby is as close to your lap as you're going to get, it's practically hanging over your lap, same difference.)

Just wondering your thoughts on this.

While it is certainly not trivial for a pregnant woman to fly, I think if they were large enough to take up more than one seat, being forced to pay for two would actually be beneficial. I would certainly think spralling/relaxing out over two seats would be infintely more comfortable than trying to squeeze a woman and her child into one...

I heard of that rule, but a pregnant woman with a 23 month old baby?
I believe if that whas the situation that she wouldn't get charged.

I think that people that take up too much room should buy 2 seats. If they cant afford it then either start saving or start going to the gym. But, it itsnt fair for a person who buys one seat to be only able to use half of it because the person by him doesnt fit in his. The number of obese people in the US is very big and maybe this will make some people think about loosing weight.

Wow, I could see adding a couple larger seats in the black and charge a couple bucks more... Not as much as 1st class, and without the 1st class service, but to make one person pay double their fare for comfort? Shiznit, should I have to pay for the seat in front of my because my legs are long? I prop my legs so the guy in front of me can't recline his seat. Otherwise my legs fall asleep. it is kind of funny, the rock back & forth a little trying to recline their seat, give you a couple dirty looks, swaer, and turn around pissed off. What can I say? I have long legs, and need some room for my lap top. Tip: sit low in your seat, force your knees against thier seat, and add pressure. Their seat isn't going anywhere. (All I have to do is raise my knees a couple inches, boy do I wish I had the room sit a little lower in my seat.)

Being over 6 and a half feet tall, like fakeboy the person in front of me doesn't always get to utilize the reclining mechanism of his chair. I usually ask for a bulk head row or an exit row as they have a few extra inches. But I know what it's like to sit next to a large person. On a 12 hour bus ride, there was about 1 person in every seat on the bus, but the bus seats allow about 2 people, usually. So, this very large lady, on of the nicest lady's I've ever met by the way. She was well over 300 pounds and just under 6'0 I'd say, but I was already having to sit diagnal(sp) in the seat because of my legs. She decided however that she was going to be my companion for the 12 hours trip :eek: . Needless to say when the trip was over and I unfolded myself I had to do a lot of stretching to recover. Also just a note after the first few hours of a bus ride people tend to develop an odor.... But as to the paying double for a ticket, I'm not quite sure that's fair. You could sit 2 big people in a row that fits 3 and maybe charge them an extra 50% instead of the full 100% extra. Seems like it would just take a little flag like <supersized> in the computer or something...


GEL

I think I'll come back out of lurking here......


This is a simple equation: if 1 seat = 1 ticket, and person = 2 seats, then s = t = 1/2p. For p to equal one, the equation must read 2s = 2t = p. When you multiply any one side of the equation, you must do it to all sides.

That is the way things work. I'm not getting into ethics here, because ethics don't apply here. If the person needs two seats, they need to pay for two seats. Period.

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If the person needs two seats, they need to pay for two seats. Period.

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But, by definition, no one "needs two seats". You only need one,
one seat that is adeqate to hold you. If they make the seats too small
to hold a human being, that's not the fault of the passenger.

It's not like they didn't know that not all airline passengers
are four foot ten and weigh 90 pounds.
:cool:

I am 5 feet tall and weigh almost a hundred pounds...I'm uncomfortable in airline seats. That's why I choose to drive almost everywhere I go. Maybe airlines should consider the fact that there ARE other options for most travel situations. I still feel like this is a bad decision on the airlines part. I guess the fact that the decision is at the discretion of agents at the ticket counter is what bothers me. How would you like to have a vacation planned, only to get to the ticket counter and have some jerk decide you need to pay and additional $500+ to go? I don't know about all of you, but that could put me in a bad spot financially. And what about corporate travel? How long do you think heavy people will keep their jobs if the company can send another person on the trip for half the cost? Regardless of who is better at the job, all of you know that most companies are more money conscious than anything else.

Deb :D

the way i look at it ..if you are so big that it takes 2 seats to fit you ,you need to pay for both of the seats..i dont know if it seems cold ,but it just bothers me how when people get that big all of the sudden people treat it like it is some sort of irreversable disability ,and they need all sorts of special accomodations.. i have never been that big, but i got up to 220 at my largest and it got to the point where i was sick of being fat so i got up moved more and ate less.. it just takes willpower and in some cases it takes a little shove to get started..if having to pay double to travel isnt a motivator i dont know what is.
it isnt cruel,what is cruel in my opinion is pampering people that unhealthily large.(im not sure unhealthily is a word but i think you get my drift)

The most important factor when preparing to fly a plane is WIEGHT. Airlines provide a service to move people from one place to another. The more people the more it takes to get the plane off the ground. If the airline is paying for the fuel to get the plane up there then people need to be pay an appropiate fee to fly. I am learning to fly the Cesna 172. Its tough to fly it with 4 average people on board. Hell no with four fat people. I say make them pay for 2 seats if thats what they use. For every ticket sold a certain amount of wieght in calculated so hell ya make them pay for what they use.

Peace out

Frankly, I find this to be a bullshit argument...


OK, fatty, you are going to need 2 seats to make your flight comfortable...OK, skinny, you are going to need 1 seat to make yourself comfortable...
How hard is this? It's just a swipe at the public for more money, in the end...but hey, how much is your comfort worth to you?
If you want a luxury seat, be willing to pay the dollars for it in first class...if you just wanna get to where you're going, deal with the fat guy next to you taking up half of your seat...or have the 'glandular uncontrollable' (including the fried chicken) person buy 2 seats so s/he can be comfortable, and so can you.
"I'm being discrimintated agianst!" **** you. You're fat, you need 2 seats to accomadate your 'uncontrollabe metabolism'. I don't feel sorry for you.
Pay your way, or drive...or walk, for that matter, you need a good walk...

I fit in my Coach seat just fine...
**** you fatty...buy another seat for everyone's comfort.
The world doesn't owe you anything, 'glandular imbalance' or not...
Hell...if the world was full of 6 foot tall, 180 pound guys...the airlines wouldn't have to worry about money for creating 'alternitives for the 'big folk'...but don't make me suffer for your fat ass.

Ouroboros

LMAO! ! ! You guys crack me up. I have to deal with this every day at work. Obesity is a problem. . . . yes. But its not the Airlines fault that the person is over weight. And its not their fault that the seats are soooooo small either. Its the company that produces the aircraft. If your gona get mad at someone over a seat. . . . talk to the manufacturer. As was said before. . . . if you take up more than one seat. . . your gona pay for 2 seats. Thats just the way it is.

PS: Yes, I work at an Airport. . . boy do I have some stories. ;)

My take on it:

You get what you pay for. You pay for one seat, you get one seat. If nobody is sitting next to you, people will probably overlook it if you take up more than one in terms of space, but the skinny person next to the overlarge person has just as much right to his full allotment of space as anyone else :P

Therefore, if you feel squeezed, feel free to buy two for your own comfort. But don't 'steal' from other passengers.

um...this may have been mentioned but, isn't there a barrier between the seat's....how can some one sit on that ?!!

- Noia

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Originally posted here by Noia
um...this may have been mentioned but, isn't there a barrier between the seat's....how can some one sit on that ?!!

- Noia

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Just as a side note, Noia, most of the time, this barrier is an armrest that can be lifted.

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But its not the Airlines fault that the person is over weight. And its not their fault that the seats are soooooo small either. Its the company that produces the aircraft. If your gona get mad at someone over a seat. . . . talk to the manufacturer. As was said before. . . . if you take up more than one seat. . . your gona pay for 2 seats. Thats just the way it is.

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RogueSpy -- don't the airlines have some control over that? Didn't American Airlines go through and rip out some of their seats to make room?

Anyway...just as a clarification (I saw some statistics a while ago), from an article I just read (URL below) it looks like the official United States statistics state that 56.4 percent of Americans are classified as overweight (someone just over their target weight), and 19.8 percent of Americans are classified as obese. Officially, you use the Body Mass Index to classify if your overweight or obese:

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Although the official formula uses kilograms for body weight and meters for height, here is a step-by-step calculation using a 5-foot-6-inch, 130-pound woman as an example:

1. Multiply body weight in pounds by 0.45 (130 x .45 1/2 58.5).

2. Multiply height in inches by .025 (66 x .025 1/2 1.65)

3. Multiply Answer 2 by itself (1.65 x 1.65 1/2 2.72).

4. Divide Answer 1 by Answer 3 for estimated BMI (58.5 divided by 2.72 1/2 21.5).

If your BMI is 25 to 30, you are considered overweight by public health standards. Any BMI over 30 qualifies as obese. The measure can be misleading if a person is muscular with reduced body fat, but that group of Americans remains a decided minority. For most, BMI is a soothsayer of health.

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Source: http://news.foot.com/news/988.html

W00t. An even 25.

Look at it this way, if the seat-designers accidentally make them too small, then enough people will need two seats that they'll complain and... well, market pressure will hurt the company, as people go to nicer airlines :)