Elders/Mentors Thread

I simply want to suggest that there be an Elder/Mentor thread here. Would not want it to be baised upon points but upon life span. Any that is Elder or Mentor that has age upon life could spot anyone younger cause it is based upon life span not ability to post a popular thread. The purpose of the thread is to give those members 40 and above a chance to pass what they may know of things out here, to talk of morals, standards and ethics before about 1997, 98 or so. It would be about how the computer is a tool not a male statement or power over another but how to take what you know and aply it top the real world you live in :) All should be able to see the threads but not give points. Elders and Mentors speak to the time you live in and thay have lived through.

What sort of policy would be set in place to counter abuse of this thread? As we know we have been getting spammed and rants posts more and more as the community grows. I really like the idea, and was just curious of the steps that would or should be taken to counter abuse? I guess the moderator taking frequent peaks at the post would be sufficient.

perhaps an actual forum, much like AO addicts or (one I frequently read) Negatives own Cosmos....

Honestly simply by reading threads it is rather easy to figure out who qualifies and who does not as a "mentor". Posters with good knowledge to share, and those who tend to use facts and good experience in their posts typically stand out. A simple way would be to assign a board of moderators and let them control who would and who wouldnt be able to post.

A moderator revue of each thread when it is created before posting would hopefully weed out the beginnings of poor threads. The only downside to such a moderated forum as this would be the possibility of the moderators using personal opinions in the decisions over who could and could not post, or what threads make it (simply avoided by the idea of a moderator board, something like 3 moderators) and of course the overhead in moderating such a forum.

Personally, I think its a great idea, and many who have been here either reading, or reading and posting for a while would most likely apreciate a "no bull" forum with a strong center on expanding security knowledge.

just my $1.50..... and yeah, I'd be honored, and more than willing to help moderate such a forum, so long as there were other moderators (as much as I hate to say it... I'm just as much of a hypocrite as the next guy)

personally I think members such as Terr, Negative, and even our Evil Enchilada (who has posted once?? gah ee...) would be fine suited as they have a good ability to think with a "no bull" mindset when needed.

Personally, I can't follow what's being said in the thread-starting post. Someone please clarify for me. Thanks.

EDIT: How many times am I gonna say this? Ehh, as many times as I want to, ****. F'ing anonymous panzy.

Jehnx, thank you for hiding that post.... at the risk of sounding hypocritical (hey I told you I was just as much of a hypocrite as the next guy) I think this is a prime example of why an actively moderated forum may allow for more productive discussions.... granted the language in palemoons post was slightly hard to understand..... in such an actively moderated forum a moderator would simply send a message to the poster requesting a more clear "rewrite" or rewrite the post himself before allowing it to become viewable in the forum.

In such a case as the post from Jehnx which may or may not have been appropriate (my guess is you have been getting blasted with neg AP's...) the post would have been denied altogether and Jehnx would receive a reason, allowing him to submit a rewrite himself, or move on with life.... but then again, if the original post in this thread had been rewritten for clarity, Jehnx surely would have not posted requesting clarification.

even now this post I am writing is redundant and in reality pointless as any intelligent reader would have blown the post by Jehnx off in the beginning (or thought better of him now for hiding it) and either took the thread at face value or ignored the thread altogether if they could not understand the topic from the first post (which I feel was more than clarified in the following posts).

well... I'm up to $3.00 now....

basically jehnx what what i understand ppl will look at your posts before it can be submitted but who has all the time to do that ? there are so many posts made everyday how r u gunna control all that? maybe i understood wrong

-Janet

If I am reading the original thread correctly, and I think I am, then I must voice my agreement on this matter. I think that what Palemoon is speaking of is a forum where the younger generation(s) can benefit from the experiences that we 'old fogies' have had. We grew up in a world that was very different from yours, a world without computers and video game consoles (with the exeption of the original Atari, in my case). When most of you were being born or entering grade school, we were entering the world of adulthood, beginning to build up a knowledge of life and its intricacies, starting to raise a family. We come from a time when a single parent home was the exception, not the norm. Some of my generation saw the coming of the Beatles, the assasination of JFK. Others, like myself, came along a bit later and saw the end of the Beatles, watched Neil Armstrong walk on the moon, saw Nixon resign in disgrace. I can actually remember when this country was safe for all, when you could go to bed and leave your doors unlocked and your windows open. I would never be fool enough to say that I am smarter than those younger than I, for you possess a technical prowess that I find astounding, and it by far outstrips my own. I will, however, say that in most cases we do possess a wisdom that comes only with age and experience. We know how to handle the curve balls that life can throw, because we have already had them thrown at us. Some of us, like Palemoon and myself, would love to share that experience with the younger members of the community, to enable them to face the challenges life invariably has to offer head on, armed with the knowledge and experience of those who walked the path before them.

alright then. maybe its the scotch, but i'm pretty sure i'm completely ocnfused by now.
i thik the elDer thing is a really good idea. there are a few "elders" that i have looked to as solid advice, (x, pale, acid, gg, even jenx (you bad ass*heh) ) that i have noted as those to respect and listen to. mind you i'm not a total "newbie" to the whole biz, (as i've started with the bbs's with me C-64 and what baud was that? what was i saying?

i suppose all i can say is. thank you, all of AO. it is a learning experience i shall never regret. and i should go to sleep.

Well I just want to say that Allenb1963 pretty much hit the head on what my concept is. Keep in mind sometimes concepts are to ponder over not to be read and in an instant understood. Since I have no Scotch Elders have been in this business since it was about I even worked for Atari myself still have a 2600 in the attic. We don't point and click change 10 things and think it my work we tend to change one setting then take hours to pour over logs to understand if that one change made a differece to correct a problem rather then guess out 10 changes should work. So much youth out here and so smart, creative etc. You hold much knowledge it is the wisdom of how you use what you know that counts. Know your OS your craft what do you do in a job interview, sell your service etc? I'll just pass to this thread what my own father who passed away sent me via email. Was hard for him but this is the message he sent me

"I want to remind you that success in life is based on hard slogging. There will be periods when discouragement is great and upsetting, and the antidote for this is calmness and fortitude and a modest yet firm belief in your competence. Be sure that your priorities are in order so that you can proceed in a logical manner, and be ever mindful that nothing will take the place of persistence.
- Publisher and philanthropist Walter Annenberg in a letter to his son.

So if your father was never around in your life there are mentors that can give such things not because the want to but because they can. Why because they care and for elders it is not a question of strutting our stuff but how to use knowledge to make not only your life better but those of others in any community you may be in.

Peace

Well said Palemoon, well said. Sounds to me like your father was definitely on top of his game when he passed that quote on. My father is also gone, and I share your sense of loss. I was fortunate enough to get to ask my dad a question about a month before he passed (it was sudden) that has had a profound affect on my outlook on life. It was just after his 70th birthday, and I asked him what, after 70 years of living, was important. The man never missed a beat when he looked at me and said, "To make a difference. To know that you leave this world having made a contribution that benefits others." And thats what I want to do. Everyday that I live, I want to make someones life better...and I've found it's not all that hard to do if you just try.

Thanks Dad!

Thanks Allen my father passed also very fast but even in his death lived what he spoke to me about in death he made his contribution to make others life better, a kidney here, another there, 1/2 a liver here and there sight to another and to children he left skin for grafts so they may have a life. His day begain when a saw was powered by his own a a tool, to the point where I now have but one item of his craft and art LOL minus a few finger tips on his part. Then I grow up and have this tool this thing called a computer, humm saws cut down forests and still do, code cuts down the web. So everyone will one day become old see lots of code cutting down the web like a hand drawn saw in a virgin forest. So is the baggage of elders and mentors. I cannot act upon the web in my code or out here then I do in life, this tool is not mine alone and code is like knowing the tools of a carpenter but cannot craft a part of a house or provide a item of furnture in it. Just how to break the windows a set fire in short sort of tip over the outhouse. I have only my answers and only want to mentor and share with those younger that may have never known a father, and I will state this has nothing to do with a mother, she is the most valued one with her gave you your very life. :)

I like your idea Palemoon, so often I am amazed of the lack of tactile intelligence these bright young hackers possess. ( by the way I had the original "Pong" game ) for instance: a rant Posting to a thread in the cosmos forum about animal oppression when the thread is focused on animal awareness...geeesh....:brickwall
And to top this all off, this was his very first post!

Had to get this off my chest and thought this was the best place to discuss this.

In reference to my rantings: Animal Awarness

Since this thread has issues that need to be addressed by all of AO, I am double posting, (because I can't edit my last post ) In hopes that this thread might be re-vitalized.


qwerty_smith,

Quote:

---

alright then. maybe its the scotch, but i'm pretty sure i'm completely ocnfused by now.
i thik the elDer thing is a really good idea. there are a few "elders" that i have looked to as solid advice, (x, pale, acid, gg, even jenx (you bad ass*heh) ) that i have noted as those to respect and listen to. mind you i'm not a total "newbie" to the whole biz, (as i've started with the bbs's with me C-64 and what baud was that? what was i saying?

i suppose all i can say is. thank you, all of AO. it is a learning experience i shall never regret. and i should go to sleep.

---

Nice point you are trying to make qwerty, I hope that you didn't spill your drink in your computer. :zap:

allenb1963,

Quote:

---

I would never be fool enough to say that I am smarter than those younger than I, for you possess a technical prowess that I find astounding, and it by far outstrips my own. I will, however, say that in most cases we do possess a wisdom that comes only with age and experience. We know how to handle the curve balls that life can throw, because we have already had them thrown at us. Some of us, like Palemoon and myself, would love to share that experience with the younger members of the community, to enable them to face the challenges life invariably has to offer head on, armed with the knowledge and experience of those who walked the path before them.

---

This is not foolishness, this is revelation based on a neccesity. We have an obligation to these young genius's to nurture there positive points, and lift their veil of ignorance associated to their lack of self control, coupled with arrogance, these kidz can be very destructive. Sadly, most of the brightest minds ( our potential world leaders...OMG! ) seem to be overshadowed by their own mis-guided confidence.


THEJRC,

Quote:

---

Personally, I think its a great idea, and many who have been here either reading, or reading and posting for a while would most likely apreciate a "no bull" forum with a strong center on expanding security knowledge.

---

You could not have said that better, I also feel this way.


Joey_Batch_File,

Quote:

---

What sort of policy would be set in place to counter abuse of this thread? As we know we have been getting spammed and rants posts more and more as the community grows. I really like the idea, and was just curious of the steps that would or should be taken to counter abuse? I guess the moderator taking frequent peaks at the post would be sufficient.

---

I too have noticed this, I too have had a few rants, which are usually sparked off by some hot-headed skript kiddie who thinks his/her knowledge of current technoligies can bully their way through life. I also think that this moderated "Mentor" forum should have the ultimate right to dish out negitive , or positive APs to these youngsters as they deserve them. The moderator with the AP "wand" should remain anonymous and silent in the thread so as to be impartial and un-biased. (not to mention possibly being mobbed by the kidz who feel oppressed by their decisions )


Palemoon,

Quote:

---

The purpose of the thread is to give those members 40 and above a chance to pass what they may know of things out here, to talk of morals, standards and ethics before about 1997, 98 or so.

---

Quote:

---

All should be able to see the threads but not give points. Elders and Mentors speak to the time you live in and thay have lived through.

---

And not to leave out Palemoon, whose infinate wisdom and knowledge led to this discussion in the first place. I only wish that the rest of AO would read this thread and contribute with their own views and comments. (hence the double post - sorry JP but I had to get this post back in the flow )

I really think that an entire forum dedicated to this would be a complete waste of time. I believe that you said that the purpose of the forum was to allow the "older" members to pass on their wisdom. Thats what the cosmos forum is for. If it is computer related, put it in the proper forum...
If you want every post to be checked by a moderator, then personal feelings about a post will determine if the moderator lets it through. If you write a post saying that Kennedy was killed in 1907, and I reply proving you wrong, are you going to let my post through, or delete it, and edit your own post?
Also, how many moderators are you going to have? Just checking posts that are already on the boards takes a lot of time. Ask negative if you don't believe me. People are going to get very frustrated if they have to keep waiting for there post to make it to the thread.
Finally, age is not a sign of any knowledge whatsoever. I know people that are over 40 that I wouldn't take their advise if you paid me. Better advise would be to listen to them and do the exact opposite. It is all bassed on life experience. I have delt with certain things in my life that most people will never go through. But there are also a lot of things I will never deal with.

Quote:

---

there are a few "elders" that i have looked to as solid advice, (x, pale, acid, gg, even jenx (you bad ass*heh) ) that i have noted as those to respect and listen to.

---

None of those people qualify except palemoon himself. By elder, he was refering to age. As a mater of fact, ever single person you named is younger then me by atleast a year (except pale....)Threre are very few people on here over 40, which is the age that he stated in the original post. Maybe 3 people total that acually post?

You make a very good argument here souleman...

Quote:

---

I really think that an entire forum dedicated to this would be a complete waste of time.

---

You are very correct on this, I have used the word "forum" where I meant "thread". It was a very long and tireing day. I do suggest that the Elder/Mentor thread be placed as a "sticky" in the Newbie Help or Special Feature forums, provided, that we adopt this into use.

Quote:

---

If you want every post to be checked by a moderator, then personal feelings about a post will determine if the moderator lets it through. If you write a post saying that Kennedy was killed in 1907, and I reply proving you wrong, are you going to let my post through, or delete it, and edit your own post?

---

This is another good point, I honestly believe that most of us "old doods" would not abuse the moderator privleges. I myself might not be a perfect candidate for this role as I tend to be spontanious, blunt, and to the point. Although, I do know of a few members that are exceptionally good at being "un-biased" and "cool headed". As for editing, or deleting a users post, that is totally out of the question, I do not believe in censorship, and I would die to defend our rights of free speach. I also don't believe in plagerism and taking someone elses post and editing it in any way would be just that.

Quote:

---

how many moderators are you going to have? Just checking posts that are already on the boards takes a lot of time. Ask negative if you don't believe me.

---

If there is only going to be one thread....I don't think that this would be much of a problem.

Quote:

---

Finally, age is not a sign of any knowledge whatsoever. I know people that are over 40 that I wouldn't take their advise if you paid me. Better advise would be to listen to them and do the exact opposite. It is all bassed on life experience. I have delt with certain things in my life that most people will never go through. But there are also a lot of things I will never deal with.

---

Agreed...Age is definitly NOT a sign of knowledge, but of wisdom and life experiences. I am 42 myself, I have over 20 years of field experience as an electronics tech/engineer/fabricator. As for a "Security Technology Expert" I am still just a nube. Now I can design complex circuits in my sleep and wake up in the morning ready to build it, I'll explain to you what its functions are, and how to use it in a basic application, I will fix it when you break it, but I leave the deployment, and actual application of the device to all the youngins' huddleing around the coffee station in the lounge waiting for something to evaluate. Meanwhile I take my break and prepare ( ultimately ) for the call from some college grad to ask me what this "thing" is that they have sitting on their desk. Most generally they don't realize that it is the very item they asked me to fabricate for them the day prior....if I had a dime for every time I heard "already?"
I am now in a partnership thing with an associate of mine...a college grad...directing the operations of a new and growing ISP service that will hopefully grow to encompass most of the rural midwest on our own exclusive fiber backbone. I am genuinely amused by your ( don't take this the wrong way, this post is praise not flame ) advice to do the opposite of the "old doods" reccomendation. Consider this before you hurt the ol guys feelings about how stoopid he is....If he told you exactly how to do it the right way, to the letter, would you even be needed? I usually tell them something way off base so they have something to keep them busy and interested, puff them up and tell them things like "why did I not think of that, good man, I think we'll keep ya..."

I am not really too surprised either about only having 2 or 3 members that fit the criteria of elder. Most of us are invisible or just lurking around as guests, tis a high wire act in a windy canyon to be my age and welcomed into the huddle around the coffee pot too.

sorry souleman. i wasnt thinking "age" at all. (and i didnt mean to leave you out... ;))
i was more on the lines of "mentor" in the respect of someone who i can learn from and trust. there are alot of people who say one thing, but end up giving some dangerous advice. trust is a big issue for me especially when it comes to security issues. the names (not a complete list, mind you) were a few people that i have gleaned some knowledge from that has helped me in one way or another. i hope i make it on someone else list, but i as yet do not trust my accuracy enough to tell someone what to do.

[edit]aeallison: thanx, but i can keep it in a glass. ;)[/edit]

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by souleman
If you want every post to be checked by a moderator, then personal feelings about a post will determine if the moderator lets it through. If you write a post saying that Kennedy was killed in 1907, and I reply proving you wrong, are you going to let my post through, or delete it, and edit your own post?

---

One would hope that the moderators chosen would have gained enough wisom to realize that there is no shame in making mistakes. Personally, I would say "Oops, you're right and I'm wrong." Then I would thank you for pointing out the error and go on about my merry way. As you age, life has a way of battering you around in a way that aids in developing thick skin. I'm not saying I can't be insulted, merely that there is no harm in admitting a mistake...nobody here knows it all.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by souleman
Finally, age is not a sign of any knowledge whatsoever. I know people that are over 40 that I wouldn't take their advise if you paid me. Better advise would be to listen to them and do the exact opposite. It is all bassed on life experience. I have delt with certain things in my life that most people will never go through. But there are also a lot of things I will never deal with.

---

No insult intended here, but that statement (listen to them and do the exact opposite) belies some of the arrogance that aeallison spoke of earlier. I remember being exactly the same way when I was in my twenties, and there is no sin in it although it is a liability. But making that statement in front of the wrong people can put the brakes on even the most stellar career...upper management is notoriously small minded, my friend, and quick to base opinion on hearsay. That, by the way, is a piece of (unsolicited) 'old dood' advice from a guy who's been around the block several times. We all have different experiences throughout our lives, but the bulk of them are not as unique as we would like to believe. And when you do come across that situation or circumstance that you've never faced, would you prefer to stumble through it blindly or reap the benefit of having the counsel of those who have been there before? Food for thought, my friend. :)

Well I posted this thread and let it go off and I return to see what is up. Age is age knowledge is knowing. Age has it's advantage though in that without wisdom to use what you know knowledge has little value but to yourself and perhaps a small bunch of folks that say to you "How Smart" Lets face it we have people like M$, Sun, HP, can go on and on they sell flawed products for big bucks and young people find flaws in the site, software etc, information is knowledge, knowledge is power. Yet all these software vendors depend upon one thing and exploit it getting information for free if M$ cannot get it for free or Sun or Orical they buy it how cause young minds provide raw materials in the information and way of thinking they know something these Corps lost long ago! I do not work for free, and I don't want the right to brag to anyone. Mentors cannot be bought, nor do they give away what they know for free. This is what I wanted the area to be about, how not to be exploited but actually earn a living knowing and doing what you all can do. It is not extortion by any after all we did not release a faulty product earn billions...nope young people give the billion dollar people further ways to make their profits for free. Face it called exploiation and the corps around bow days have it to a fine art. Think of M$, Sun, all these people of laying claim to the very land you live in then give them all the raw materials to take it over. Gold was not given in the Gold Rush the real people that profited from this made everyone believe they owned the land, when in fact they did not have not. Do not give away what you know for bragging rights make an honest living and let the corps pay market value for your knowledge. That is the wisdom I speak of Do Not Work For Free :)

Well I posted this thread and let it go off and I return to see what is up. Age is age knowledge is knowing. Age has it's advantage though in that without wisdom to use what you know knowledge has little value but to yourself and perhaps a small bunch of folks that say to you "How Smart" Lets face it we have people like M$, Sun, HP, can go on and on they sell flawed products for big bucks and young people find flaws in the site, software etc, information is knowledge, knowledge is power. Yet all these software vendors depend upon one thing and exploit it getting information for free if M$ cannot get it for free or Sun or Orical they buy it how cause young minds provide raw materials in the information and way of thinking they know something these Corps lost long ago! I do not work for free, and I don't want the right to brag to anyone. Mentors cannot be bought, nor do they give away what they know for free. This is what I wanted the area to be about, how not to be exploited but actually earn a living knowing and doing what you all can do. It is not extortion by any after all we did not release a faulty product earn billions...nope young people give the billion dollar people further ways to make their profits for free. Face it called exploiation and the corps around bow days have it to a fine art. Think of M$, Sun, all these people of laying claim to the very land you live in then give them all the raw materials to take it over. Gold was not given in the Gold Rush the real people that profited from this made everyone believe they owned the land, when in fact they did not have not. Do not give away what you know for bragging rights make an honest living and let the corps pay market value for your knowledge. That is the wisdom I speak of Do Not Work For Free :) No matter what walk of life we are from nor age information has a cost think of it as a Dot Net way to answer flaws in software where the producers actually must supscribe into a Dot Net world to even understand the flaws in their own product.

Wow!! Good post post Palemoon Palemoon.....LOL

You make a fine point Pale, even if you did double it up a bit, thats one way to get your point across, all fun aside, earlier in this post I mentioned that I did not mean forum, but I recinded to a thread...well I am going to change that decision back to a forum, the last 2 days events here at AO have given me the gumption to try again....in reference:

Quote:

---

I have used the word "forum" where I meant "thread". It was a very long and tireing day. I do suggest that the Elder/Mentor thread be placed as a "sticky" in the Newbie Help or Special Feature forums, provided, that we adopt this into use.

---

Wow this may bcome a sticky? just a passing thought sticky to an elder person can be many things common my humor here :) Just know one thing though lots of smart young people here and well I was young and a smart ass or a pain in one usually :) I was lucky in that people older in me gave me the time, so I suppose I'm giving back only what I learned to understand :) thanks to about 5 generations before me.

Greetings All:

Well, I'm only 23, and as such, am not inclined to start a forum that I couldn't post in, haha.

Besides, what's to stop people from not telling the truth about how old they are?

I like that all of our forums are based on what you put into the site, and not any other factors. I know a lot of VERY smart and mature people in their late teens / early 20s, and a lot of VERY stupid people that are magnitudes older.