Ashcroft prosecuting P2Per's?

Nineteen of our 'prestigious' lawmakers have signed a letter asking John Ashcroft and the justice dept. to consider prosecuting individual P2P users. It seems to me that there are more pressing areas of enforcement (fraud, insider trading, corporate theft, to name a few) needing attention, but evidently I am mistaken. Read the story link below and form your own opinion. It almost looks like hollywood knows their hacking bill is doomed for failure, so they are falling back to plan 'B'.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,54460,00.html


As an afterthought, wouldn't it be interesting to know how much 'soft money' these lawmakers have recieved from the entertainment industry? It is a matter of public record....sounds like a job for....GOOGLE!

the only outcome of that would be the U.S. sinking deeper into the national debt, and ashcroft would be considered more of a moron because of his flawed ideas. The fact is, that it wont be passed, and it wont be enforced even if it is, you cant exactly track down individuals all over the world just for downloading music/whatever from someone else. Mainly because of the millions and millions of ppl that do it everyday. That is like imposing a law to where you can only go 5 mph on the highway. No one would follow that law. And there would be too many ppl doing it to enforce it.

You have a good point there, Al. I too was wondering why Ashcroft has such an extremist attitude towards p2p networks and it's users. Could the music industry be persuading him with money? ;)

er0k also has a very good point. It would be pretty hard to enforce a law that so many people would be breaking. So, what's plan C?

The music industry is not facing their own music :) they have forgotten that music is an art form not a marketing blitz, so canned boyz band, or cute blond and navel ring thing. They are suffering just like the rest of corp america is. They have marketed their stuff for far to long, doctored their books with creative book keeping, and all smochooze with each other and say how great a vision they have. Mean time average person like my son burns like 20 CD's a week just to listen to a riff here or there then gives them to his little brother so he can nuke them in the microwave and watch fireworks. MP3's are not the problem the problem is their marketed crap, fluff for top dollar is not working now. From Ashcroft above and down these old guard people cling to a life and their power and see it was all smoke and mirrors and most of America is not buying or investing in their crap. They are worried big time I am in an age group like many others lost much from my retirement and elections are due in November. I ask hard questions and I vote for a person that will do a job not some media blitz saying give me 4 more years I'll fix it. Check the people out that sent this to Ashcroft then go off and vote them out of office take the lesser of two evils. oops thinks I was just ranting again LOL :)

Personally I think this is really dumb. Sure some peaple out there use P2P to transport stolen and sometimes bad things accross the .NET but he has no right to tell peaple that they can't give a few peaple music, movies, & games I mean thats like someone sueing you because you gave all of your friends rented movies for 2 days, watched them in one day then gave them to a frieand to watch and then return. Most peaple who download do it for free however I don't think its right that peaple grab movies & music before it has ever even been brought into the public. P2P is a quick and easy way to network... the internet itself was made to share DATA and as far as I can see the .NET is the final front between a war agianst .GOV regulations & freedom, this is just another bomb being set off in this 'INFO-WAR'.

Your right about that allenb1963, every law enforcement agent that helps the RIAA, is one less defending the people of this country and will produce yet another unnecessary agency the taxpayers have to support. Fighting them in the courts hasn’t really been all that successful. Their eating away at us a little at a time using P2P networks as their reason.

Kazaa, Morphous, Audiogalaxy and the others, are in no way comparable to Napster. These are anything for a buck types, who could care less about our rights and privacy as evidenced by the spy-ware they give us and claim to know nothing about. There was even an attempt to use our computers in a distributed computing network for profit, with out our permission Oh yeah, it was very clear in the EULA. Rriight!

They promote their services by advertising on billboards, placing adds in newspapers and on busses, anything at all to drum up more business. It’s these actions that have supported the RIAA’s attack on us. Their trying too convince us we should fight for our rights, when actually it’s their profits they want us to fight for.

If we had any sense at all, we’d abandon them in favor of free-net or anything else that was by and for netizens. A place where we can do what we want with what we own, without someone trying to turn a profit and ruining everything in the process.

As long as someone is making money on someone else’s property there really is no defending it. The loop- holes and technicalities they’re using to defend their business are just that, and are endangering the freedom of the internet.

As is stands right now, most politicians will not comment on P2P in fear of how unpopular it could make them. But the actions of these P2P Networks are making it easy for the RIAA to get their way. Without these file-sharing for profit companies, the RIAA wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

I think that Ashcroft needs to be reminded that the same people who use p2p pay his salary. Once and a while governments forget that they are supposed to work for the people and need a swift kick in the ass.

on the idea of national debt....
we're screwed http://www.amark.com/stats/money.asp

OK...call me slow, but I'm failing to see the national debt relavence here, so lets toss that from the discussion. Although Mahakaal's link is interesting, the relationship between national debt and P2P is at best obscure. Unfortunately, the RIAA will probably pick up on his post and claim that P2P is increasing the national debt expotentially, linked to cancer in lab animals, and causing the hole in the ozone layer to expand and encompass the entire southern hemisphere.

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Originally posted here by Gurl
er0k also has a very good point. It would be pretty hard to enforce a law that so many people would be breaking. So, what's plan C?

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I wouldn't say that is a good point. We have many laws that huge amounts of individuals defy on a daily basis. Everyone knows atleast one individual that smokes marijuana, I'm sure a majority of you have driven at excess speeds at one time or another. I would hope you guys don't but, driven after a drink or two "NOT DRUNK DRIVEN" just after a drink. What about jay-walking. I'm sure you guys got the point. However, this whole issues is all about the money, and there is nothing else to be said... Except... Show Them The Money....

:)
Hey thats why i started my post with a...."on the idea of national debt".

wanna know a secret?

internet music is now public enemy number one. right now there are more p2p swapping services than there are people under suspicion for terroristic practices in this country. download.com has... a zillion. (no kidding, a ZILLION!). The justice department is looking for an easy target, and they're sing harsher and harsher terms to describe "pirates" (ie: thieves).. before long, these notorious HACKERS are going to be going to prisons, and these CRIMINALS are going to be EXECUTED lke the TERRORISTS that they are.

when the prosecution gets tough, the justice department get's picky.

You know what? When I was 13, I used to borrow cassette tapes from buddies of mine and record them to blank tapes to listen to without paying. I also used to tape songs from the radio and make mixed tapes for myself. Guess what? I didn't pay for any of it! You can't say that the music industry didn't know this type of activity was going on and they never made a stink about it because it didn't put a "dent" in their wallets. Now that technology has progressed, we have found a new way to "copy our tapes". I can see how P2P can be used to transport some types of questionable material that the authorities would be interested in (ie terrorist type stuff, bomb making plans, etc.), but lets get real, people sharing their files is their prerogative. Maybe the gov't should be craking down on this terrorist thing a little harder.

-the eeshman

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Originally posted here by Joey_Batch_File


I wouldn't say that is a good point. We have many laws that huge amounts of individuals defy on a daily basis. Everyone knows atleast one individual that smokes marijuana, I'm sure a majority of you have driven at excess speeds at one time or another. I would hope you guys don't but, driven after a drink or two "NOT DRUNK DRIVEN" just after a drink. What about jay-walking. I'm sure you guys got the point. However, this whole issues is all about the money, and there is nothing else to be said... Except... Show Them The Money....

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There is a rule in life that no one will obey the unreasonable laws. My point being an extremely insane law like prosecuting individuals for p2p files is insane, and that a speed limit on a highway of 5 mph is insane. A great teacher Dr. A.J. Johnson once explained this too us thoroughly, that the individual basically makes the laws, that they set there own limits and their own boundaries. Smoking marijuana is believed by some to be dangerous and/or stupid. Driving drunk is dangerous and/or stupid. Excessivley speeding is dangerous and/or stupid etc. Now driving over 5 mph on a highway is not dangerous. So ppl will do it. Ppl will not obey laws that they find unreasonable or insane. Thats like persecuting someone for coughing.

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Once and a while governments forget that they are supposed to work for the people and need a swift kick in the ass.

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Yup.. All too often the people in the .gov forget who they're working for and why. I think they all need a swift kick in the ass. I'm sure there's plenty more important things that our .gov needs to be doing right now other than tracking down p2p users.

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A U.S. federal judge ordered Napster to shut down its service in July 2001, but upstarts like Kazaa and Morpheus soon took its place. Kazaa, which in addition to music allows users to swap movies and other media files, said this week that its free software had been downloaded 100 million times.

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Ok so I guess they plan on tracking down 100 million + p2p users and placeing them under arrest. Heh, yeah right.

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"There is no doubt, mass copying off the Internet is illegal and deserves to be a high priority for the Department of Justice," said RIAA Chairman Hilary Rosen in a statement.

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A "high priority"? I think there's more important issues the .gov needs to take care of, such as national debt, the stock market, and weather or not we killed bin laden to name a few. Seems to me like some one needs to get their prioritys straight.

Sure napster was wrong becuase they sold software to trade other peaples products but most of these guys nowdays don't have anything to do with money. I have burned games and have traded CD keys for games' source code and then ripped music onto my HD so I'd have a good soundtrack to the game however I am doing this for personal use does this make me a criminal? Before there was such a thing as money peaple would trade things does that make them criminals? The only crime that is involved is when these peaple start charging money or someone steals a album that was never ment to make it to the public but when fans download it knowing that it was stolen would you arrest them for being... well.... fans?

i dont think P2P will ever die its definately here to stay.
its is INTERNATIONAL people all over the world use this software, there is no stopping it, so it is a pointless useless war on sharing, when these resources and time could be used on real issues and crimes that actual harm the nation and its citizens.

what a waste of time and money!!!!

please don't talk about pornography on this site. Thank you.

quote: Music labels have not ruled out suing individual users, and have pushed for the right to flood peer-to-peer networks with bogus files, or disrupt them by other means

um... forgive me if im wrong but idnt that fraudulent activity? or spamming?

time to use the 8080 proxy thingy i think

Preep

yeah, lets see, on average there are about 2.4 million users online with Kazaa whenever I look. Lets just say this company decides to arrest half of those people and actually does. Now, how the hell do they expect to put 1.2 million people in front of a judge before the 22nd century and even expect to get half of them into jails? Lets be nice and say they manage to get half of the 1.2 million people in jail, that makes 600,000 people. And just where is all the room and money gonna come from? Ok, lets say they can make enough jails to house these 600,000 people (which is only 1/4 of the 2.4 million users online with Kazaa alone) now they have to pay for these 600,000 'criminals' in a few new jails. But then lets say they don't send anyone to jail and just want to fine everyone. Lets be reasonable and say they only catch 1/8 of the people. They are gonna fine 300,000 people for downloaded MP3's? Thats also gonna cost lots of money to track them down and bring them to justice. Why don't they just forget about it because the problem will never go away and its not killing anyone, not using up medicare or nothin, so why don't they go after the large drug dealers that are distrubuting death around the continent? Or murderers, rapists, child pornographers, the people that are harming society.
If these people think they can scare us into never downloading MP3's again, so be it. I feel that 1 out of 2,400,000 people are good odds in my favour. I have a better chance of been struck by lightning 3 times! (3.428 to be more precise!) and as Remote_Access quoted, Kazaa has been dled 100 million times. So I've only accounted for 2.2 percent of that population!
Just my long and cheap 2 cents...

Preep...go find the thread on hollywood hacking and you'll discover that hollywood is pushing to make hacking legal for copyright holders. the bitch about it is that the artists, for the most part, don't own the copyright to their own music. The RIAA does, even though they give the illusion that they are protecting the artist, they are actually protecting themselves. The RIAA is a huge economic carnivore interested in nothing except draining our wallets.

er0k...you're right...it's all about the money and it's a damned shame that governmental resources should be diverted to enforce the financial interests of a corrupt coalition of executives who do nothing to produce anything with a tangible value. They had a chance to turn P2P into something profitable for them from the beginning and refused to. Now they cry to the government for protection from a threat that resulted from their own studidity. How pathetic.

Well, All the arguments I have seen so far have been great. Allow me to add some more to this.

According to the copyright laws of the US, a copyrighted medium owner (purchaser) is allowed to do the following.

• You are allowed to make back-up copies of your copyrighted medium for personal use and protection.
  
• You are allowed to sell the copyrighted material so long as you destroy all your copies and transfer the original to the new party.

So, I buy a new cd, and I rip it to mp3 on my computer for my own personal use and protection. This way if my original cd gets messed up, I can make a new one. Now lets say I decide I no longer want this cd and I decide to sell it. I can take the Mp3s and transfer them to a purchaser, take his money, and destroy all copies and mp3s I have on my computer. Now, so far as I know this is completely legal. So my question now is, how is any law enforcment going to be able to determine whether you legally purchased an mp3 selection, or got it from a p2p network?

Okay, moving furthur with this idea, is the US going to activly try and extradite foreign users who are infringing upon US copyrights? I think not.


On the idea of the record labels being allowed to send malicious code into these p2p networks. I seriously hope that while transfering an mp3 of my band that I recorded, I get a virus, or worm, or other malicious code inserted on my computer from a record company. That will be the day that I sue the hell out of them for destroying my personal property. Hell, why not a class action suit from all those who have had personal property destoyed.


The RIAA has opened a door that they will soon realise, will be there demise. The only thing that is coming from they're lobbying is more corruption. Money is being exchanged between officials and lobbyists and poloticians and it sickens me. Why they are activly pursuing this in a time of war is beyond me. Why they are spending congressional time on this while we have national security issues is also beyond my comprehension.

The RIAA is going to loose this battle regardless of what they do. They can continue their attempts, but ultimately the p2p groups and networks will continue to exsist. The only thing I can compare this to is the "Rave laws" that went into effect. Do you think that stopped us? Hell no, it just went underground.

As others have said, the public sets the law. If the law is something that the public doesn't agree is worthwhile, then there will be a big enough resistance to it that will make it obsolete. When was the last time you ever saw anyone arrested for copying a page from a book? That's still copyright infringement. Yet the public has stood against it and made it an absolete law. Hell, they even put copy machines in the libraries now. If thats not asking to break the law I don't know what is.

Well, I'm done ranting. This will be a short lived fight and I guarantee that in a year no one will even remember what the RIAA was.

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Originally posted here by er0k
... The fact is, that it wont be passed, and it wont be enforced even if it is, you cant exactly track down individuals all over the world just for downloading music/whatever from someone else. Mainly because of the millions and millions of ppl that do it everyday. That is like imposing a law to where you can only go 5 mph on the highway. No one would follow that law. And there would be too many ppl doing it to enforce it.

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Whoa, there, folks: When you think any law that gets passed will not be enforced, you are dreaming an impossible dream. If there is a law "on the books" you can bet your bottom buck that there is an enforcement module (eats, drinks, breathes, smells like a carbon-based lifeform, but acts like a programed silicon-based lifeform...) who *will* enforce it. And, do you really believe that his boss, who may be a genuine carbon-based lifeform with the ability to think logically, will tell the energetic rookie; "Hey, bud, we don't enforce that, it's really stupid..."? No, not on you life, because they all stood before some high-court judge and *swore* to uphold and enforce *the laws of...), and guess what again, when they make an arrest it doesn't cost them anything, unlike the citizen who gets arrested and is required to either plead and hope for logic from the court, or mortgage his house and future earnings to pay for a lawyer who may or may not be interested, capable, trained in that field, or give a damn past his retainer up front? That's why we have to be so very careful on the wording of traffic and criminal laws, because if it's on the books you are going to live by it someday. And, if it is patently rediculous when it's introduced, you better band together with folks of similar feelings/training/expertise and introduce yourselves to the lawmakers who are considering it. Sometimes they don't get a chance to read anything past the introduction of the proposed legislation, so if you don't tell them what's wrong with it, and they pass it, then Bubba, get ready to live with it.

Old Man, Its illegal not to have brakes on a bicycle, I don't see anyone activly persuing these criminals even though its "on the books". There are countless thousands of laws that are overlooked everyday througout the united states. To try and enforce them all would be a pointless endevour. Oh, its also against the law to ride a bicycle without reflectors on them. Shoot I better watch out for the feds. [/sarcasm]

Not a personal attack or anything, I'm just trying to pursue the point that the people decide what laws are going to be pursued and which ones arn't. :)

xmaddness while its true that the police don't go around inspecting bikes, if someone called them they'd have no choice but to come and issue a summons. If someone found you were downloading mp3, like the recording industry, the feds would have no choice but to uphold what ever laws are in existance.

Yes you do have a point, the law, if called upon, must be upheld.

Although in order for the Music Industry to find MP3's on my computer, wouldn't they need a warrant? The only way for the RIAA to search my computer is if they go out and get a warrant to search my personal property. Without one the case would just get thrown out of court.

Now does this mean that they are going to issue search warrents for every person on napster, morpheus, and kazza's member lists? I don't think so.

I think the RIAA is going to just make a few examples, take it to court, make a big woopdedoo about it, and then forget about the rest. I gues they are just going to have to go down the alphabet through the member lists, apply for a warrant to search the computers, and then begin proceedings to prosecute in court. By the time they get around to my "member" name, xmaddness, I'll be about 106 years old.

i really think The Old Man is right, it may be that it will be the way you say xmaddness, but then again it may not and i can't forget that the RIAA wants the internet as a safe media for them to make money, pay per stream movies and music, i mean were talking billions in profit. Thats why AOL/TimeWarner is opposing them, they want control. But either way they both want it locked down safe, and they're going to do whatever they can to make it so, or whatever we allow them to get away with.

It occurs to me, that, if i were "The Government", i'd think real hard about starting up my own cloaking services and P2P secure nets, encrypted email services... you-all could probably think of some more neat little e-sting operations since you're younger and more energetic than i am... But, in all this privacy hullabaloo, i am wondering: if i and Bubbette both set up the tunneling options on W2K, or perhaps if we're using W98 instead of W2K we just configure ourselves a good ole PGP tunnel...... would we still need the services of the P2P sting operation to believe we were communicating securely across country? Hmmmmmmm?