general DOS question

Hi, I am woundering if anybody can tell me if the DOS that comes with Microsoft Windows is a "full version" DOS.

I had been talking to a friend of mine who had DOS 6.22, he then moved to windows 3.1, Windows 95 and eventualy Windows ME.

He told me that the DOS that comes with windows is not a full version DOS. On the other hand, I have been told by someone else that Windows relys on DOS to work, and in a essance, Windows 98 is not a operating system per say but rather a graphical GUI for DOS. Yet I was also told that windows has its own kernel and aparently uses a difernt shell then DOS.

pretty much, your friend was right.. :-\

your friend is right, the DOS you get from microshit with winblows is not the full version, the full version is prolly awailable for download several places, so if you need the full version, do a search on the web ( i recomend www.google.com )
the full version of dos has noumerous commands so it would be a good idea to find some book about DOS if you want to learn about all the commands

[BRLAN_CREW]ReZpawner

10X, that clears up my confusion. I have a DOS book with all kinds of command and tricks and stuff. And my friend has the full version if I want it, but I just wanted to clear up my confusion.

Thanks for sorting that out.

Your friend was also right about the GUI stuff. Windows is actually a GUI for DOS. It basically runs on DOS. I was actually not sure about that. Thanx for the info.

Friends, Romans, Countrymen..

Just had to point this out:

Its true that a version of Windows is just a GUI for DOS, but that version is the now hardly used Windows 3.1 and 3.11 versions. All versions from Windows 95 ( including 95 itself ) are all stand-alone operating systems that don't require DOS to run. DOS 6.22 i think was the last full version of DOS. Windows95 comes with somethiung called DOS 7.0, which some say is that last version DOS but its bullcrap. Windows is an operating system on its own and isn't dependant on DOS anymore.

Just thought I'd clear that up for you guys. And an afterthought, DOS was one of the MOST stable operating systems around (and prolly still is). :) YAY for command-line OSes! :cool:

Just to try and clarify this a bit more:

If you are running Win 3.x, Win95, Win98, or WinME then Windows sits on top of the DOS code that was loaded when you booted the PC - which means that things like config.sys, autoexec.bat work the way they were intended to. In other words these versions of Windows all boot from a DOS kernel - so it is DOS that has the first option as to how to set up your PC.
This also has some advantages in trying to fix problems, as your whole OS is based on a basic DOS layer, with Windows being loaded on top of it, and if things go pear shaped (or you think you have a really nasty virus, or H/W problem), then you can boot directly to DOS and see what happens, and sometimes fix the problem with command level commands .. (exactly the same as any *nix OS !!)
With WinNT/2k/XP the situation is very different, as you are now running an OS that does not have a DOS core - it uses its own kernel to boot up. This may possibly be more reliable and/or secure, but it means that when you open a DOS window on your box, all it is doing is emulating the DOS command shell.
However on the plus side you should find that any bat file you create (a sequence of DOS commands) will work correctly, whatever version of Windows you are running.
To call Win98 a GUI is very misleading, as it will install its own drivers to handle the H/W on the system, but if it comes down to it, then there is still the option to go back to the command shell and see what is really going on.

The DOS which ships with Windows 95 (DOS 7) is essentially the same as the previous version (6.22). However, I've noticed that a lot of the nice things they added in DOS 5 were removed in DOS 7 - like the help system plus loads of other menu-type things.

Of course the reason is probably that they thought you wouldn't need those features any more and they were trying to keep the size down (Win95 is still about 5x bigger than DOS 6 or something)

As to DOS's actual place within the OS, darkes has it about right.

Originally DOS did quite a lot of work, like I/O and stuff, but Windows gradually took more and more of it over, and it is not used very much after boot time in Win98+ except for running DOS boxes.

However it does still keep DOS loaded and *CAN* use DOS drivers, but their performance is quite limited.

This is in complete contrast to Windows NT 3.0 + which does not use DOS at all, and has no "DOS mode", cannot use DOS drivers, does not keep DOS loaded and its DOS boxes only emulate things.

Most other intel OSs like Linux, Netware, etc use DOS very little if at all (only for booting in the case of Netware; not at all for Linux)

RejectKnowledge:

Since you think Win9x is a standalone OS and doesn't need DOS, why don't you try deleting command.com out of your root directory and let us know what happens, mmmkay? :D

problemchild:

I don't think Win9x are stand-alone operating systems. That is what is taught in just about any certification about Microsoft Operating Systems that you will encounter, including the A+ Software Certification, amongst others. :)

Unlike DOS, Win95 onwards are all true 32-bit operating systems. One of their most important feature is being able to break the 640KB memory limit of DOS. As for the delete the COMMAND.COM, I think I will as soon as I get home. Just to see what happens.

Cheers

Get your story straight. All you are doing is confusing any newbies that may be reading this thread. You first say 9X is stand alone, then you say that it is not. Well, all this does is make newbies say "WTF" and go to another site. Please help newbies out don't confuse the crrap out of them.

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Originally posted here by RejectKnowledge
All versions from Windows 95 ( including 95 itself ) are all stand-alone operating systems that don't require DOS to run.

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Quote:

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Originally posted here by RejectKnowledge
I don't think Win9x are stand-alone operating systems. That is what is taught in just about any certification about Microsoft Operating Systems that you will encounter, including the A+ Software Certification, amongst others. :)

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Hmm...don't quote me on any of this, but the way I understand it (from my Win98 MCP cert class), Windows 3.1 and 3.11 all were graphical user interfaces (GUI's) operating on the DOS 6.2+ OS. Windows 95 was a stand-alone operating system, but still relied on command.com, autoexec.bat, config.sys, and io.sys as the startup files for backward compatibility. The DOS shell in Windows 95 was a stripped down version of DOS used as a "shell" for explorer.exe. Windows 98 and on (in the 9x strain of Windows) were also stand-alone OS's that used command.com as a startup file (just like DOS did), but the other startup files that DOS used (like autoexec.bat, config.sys, etc) were no longer required. DOS is no longer any part of the OS, and the DOS window available in all versions thereafter were simply "emulators" that mimicked the old DOS functionality. Anyway, just my 2c. :bigsmile:

jezz, with all the disagreement about windows being or not being dos gui, dos dependant, or not, is it any wonder that it does its job so poorly, i wonder if its programmers are as confused as this forum.

Man, I don't know what they're teaching in these cert classes these days.....

Windows 9x and Me use 16-bit DOS as a bootstrap to launch into the 32-bit Windows. DOS boots first, then starts Windows. It's a slightly different mechanism, but it's just like adding win to your autoexec.bat file back in the day. Don't believe me? Check this out:

There is a file in your root directory called MSDOS.SYS. It's a text file. Get rid of the hidden, system, and read-only file attributes, and open it in a text editor. Change the line BootGUI=1 to BootGUI=0, and add a line LOGO=0. When you reboot, you come up in DOS. Want to start windows? Type win. Change the Windir and WinBootDir paths and you can install multiple versions of Windows. DOS 7 is just like DOS 6 except that it's been hacked to add VFAT long filename support. Look in C:\Windows\command and there's your DOS commands.

Sheesh.... kids today. :(

Apocalypse, that think was supposed to be "think". I don't "Think" 9x etc are stand-alone operating systems. Its what is taught in the Cert courses. My bad. I apologize.

And the point I was making is what roswell made, only more elaborately than I could have. thanks, roswell.

:)

Actually while we're on the subject, I've been looking for some info on "Net Use" and "TelNet" commands and haven't had much luck. A lil nudge in the right direction would be appreciated.

vengeance_rtf: You asked for some information on Net use and telnet commands, I did a web search and it apears that this site

http://home.att.net/~gobruen/progs/d...dos_other.html
http://www.lights.com/hytelnet/telnet.html
http://www.pccontrolanywhere.com/help/telnet2.htm

might be of some help to not only you but also me. It has some information on net use and telnet as well as other DOS utilities.

Quote:

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Originally posted here by indolent
jezz, with all the disagreement about windows being or not being dos gui, dos dependant, or not, is it any wonder that it does its job so poorly, i wonder if its programmers are as confused as this forum.

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To have my final word on this one - you will find that most programmers are not confused about the way windows works. To summarise what most people have said - there are two very distinct flavours of Windows:
(1) The Win 3.x/9x line which relies on DOS to boot the system.
3.x was a pure GUI, but Win98/ME is far more than a GUI, as it will use its own drivers instead of the default DOS drivers.
(2) The Win NT/2k/XP line which has its own kernel (doesn't use DOS).

Does any of this matter? Well yes, it does in some cases.

If you are running old software - either old commercial software or old games - then you may find it impossible to get it to run correctly under WindowsXP. The reason for this is that the software is relying on DOS really being there - it is making requests directly to the DOS layer that XP is unable to emulate.

Which is why many people still use Win98 to play games ....

I should have added that this is the reason that many companies choose to keep running Win3.X, as it does the job it was intended for. Why upgrade when you don't have to ???

I read the book "Window's ME Annoyances" that Win 3.x, 9x, and ME are all DOS reliant. Windows NT and 2000 aren't and are stand alone.

i agree totally with problemchild's posts !

forget your cert courses as they are only as good as the Instructor ( i know I am a Microsoft Certified Trainer)

yes win 95 98 xp etc etc are ful 32 bit OS'es and they contain support for 16 bit for backward compatability but 95 and 98 still require DOS elements to load with in the first place that is why you see dos based commands from batch files on start of these OS'es.

NT4.0, 2000, XP etc are fully self reliant OS'es with no DOS needed for loading etc they use a completely diffferent Memory model and handle hardware completely differently.

to cut it short 3x needs dos to exist before installation, 95 and 98 can install on a clean HDD but uses DOS as a preempt fro loading device drivers etc etc
NT 4, 2000,XP etc all stand independent and load there own low level kernel for memory handling and booting etc when loading !

As for the A+ cert course remember that that is CompTIA and not a Microsfot course