No Fat Hackers for the FBI

Original Article written here


Why FBI Computer Force Ain't Fat
By Michelle Delio


The carefully coiffed men wearing suspiciously shiny shoes are at every major computer security convention.

They are there to remind hackers that law enforcement is always interested in their activities. They are also there to encourage security experts to become special agents.


But after responding to the agency's appeals for computer security experts, aspiring G-men hackers sadly say that their names will never appear on the FBI's Most Wanted Job Applicants list.

Although their technical abilities should allow them to qualify easily as agents, their ethics, age and/or physical fitness levels excluded them.

Mike Sweeny, fueled by renewed patriotism after Sept. 11, wanted to offer his 20-plus years of experience in computer security to the FBI. But he was disheartened by job requirements that required him to have a college degree, be under 37 years old, morally irreproachable ... and physically fit.

"They will not consider you unless you can carry your M16 through the physical fitness course without killing yourself in the process," Sweeny, maintainer of the PacketAttack website, said. "Most of the geeks I know view exercise as carrying the 80-ounce cola, pager and cell phone all at the same time."

The FBI does have non-agent positions for people who are highly skilled in areas such as computer forensics (collecting evidence from computers). Those who don't qualify for agent positions can still serve as civilian employees, according to an FBI spokeswoman.

But "in the FBI, if you're not an agent, you're on the bottom of the food chain," Richard Forno, an independent security consultant, said.

The FBI admittedly needs help with its technical systems. The agency recently requested $76 million just to get their databases in order -- to convert some of the roughly 1 billion documents sitting in file cabinets into an electronic and easily searchable system.

The agency has also requested an additional $730 million, over the $400 million originally budgeted, to implement "Project Trilogy" -- a general technology update intended to bring the FBI computer systems into the 21st century.

The project was dubbed Trilogy because it's the third attempt to upgrade the FBI's technology into a system that would be truly useful.

Computer security experts stress the FBI also needs to upgrade its hiring requirements if the agency really wants to attract experts. Besides the physical specimen specifications, many who are skilled enough to be able to protect a network from sophisticated attacks would probably not be ethically acceptable to the FBI.

"In order to be a good computer security person, you must think like a black-hat hacker and be able to understand the tools and methods of the dark side," Sweeny said. "Right there, you are in a very gray area, in the feds' opinion."

Job requirements for an agent also require an applicant to have a felony-free, just-say-no history.

"One question on the application asked if you'd smoked pot more than 15 times," Sweeny recalled. "Fifteen times? What's up with that? Fifteen is the magic number?"

"If the feds want the hackers bad enough, then yes, they should peel away the red tape which now prevents them from working directly for the government," security consultant Rob Rosenberger said. "But hiring practices suck in the fed's computer security arena, just like they suck in every other fed arena."

Rosenberger added that even if a person were an acceptable job applicant, it would not guarantee that the person would work with computers.

"You won't get a position in computer security until you've worked at least five years on the beat, preferably in physical investigations," Rosenberger said. "They'll grudgingly let you past if you just do forensics, but they feel you really should chase bad guys with a gun before you chase bad guys with a computer."

That is interesting. Since they have those standards that is why they are in the position they are in. I think that if you have the skills to help then you are the one for the job. Who wants to work the beat for 5 years? I know I wouldn't. As far as being physically fit, that is just their standard, like it or not that is the way it is if you want to be an FBI agent. What does completing an obsticale course have to do with compuer forensics? With that mind set they will always be one step behind.

Might be an nice insentive tho for some people (myself included) to actually step outdoors once in a while and do some excersise - god knows i need it

v_Ln

I think that if anyone really want a job at the FBI then the physical requirement would just have to be something they'll have to work on . It would be enough to motivate any person to lose some weight after working in computers for a couple of years. But unfortunately most skilled hackers won't be too inclined to do it if they already got a high paying job at a company.

I have put on some wieght, but that is because I'm going to school full time, and working full time, with more than enough side projects to occupy my free time, but when I have some free time on a nice day, I have not problem at all being active. I have also found alot of the computer gurus I work with take a liking to mountain biking...

think about that though, thats absolutley ridiculous. the only reason they would have the age requirements is so the security person could fit in with the actual illegal doers. the overweight thing... i dont get that. its not like you need to be skinny to type. gawd. but i guess its good for the up and coming genius's.. i dont know though, sounds rather strange.

:D nothing strange at all.... The Gov wants you if you have the ability to fly any OS and security settings by the seat of your pants, no manuals, no phone hookups with yer buds, no quickie question to your favorite security guru, and the Fibbies need you to night-jump at 55G-ft, suck O2 from a bottle while you sideslip 60km laterally into the next country (that they just can't fly you over :) ) and have you indian into a remote compound, hack the locals 'puter and get out alive with the info... and the "squeaky clesn" thingy is just a little insurance that you'll do your job for $21/hr instead of selling out to the opposition for a few G-notes... it ain't by any means a sure thing, but it's about the best they can come up with on poker-odds. Or do you believe they just want someone to sit in an A/C office sipping Starbucks listening to a set of headphones while you surf the net.....?????
Wanna stay in shape just a little bit? Jack that 'puter desk up about 3-ft, toss out your easy chair and replace it with a stationary exercise bike. it ain't quite the same as yer real M/B, but it'll be better than nothing by quite a ways... and while yer downloading those big programs why not work out with a couple of 5-lb dumbells while yer pedaling? Works wonders fer us *old* guys, maybe it'd work fer you energetic youngsters also? :D

the feds will never be able to catch up with anyone if that is their deamnds! They have to realise that the person must be "weighed" against hte job! Not the same type of person to do all the jobs! A guy that spends all his time at a comp will, all things being equal, know about it than the gyu that spends half his time at the gym.... right??

Being in the Marines and a security geek at the same time, I can fully understand why they need their agents to be in shape. It's the same reason that me as a geek has to undergo the same training as every other Marine. In the times that matter, you have no idea what you might be doing. If it came down to it, and the fat ass computer geek had to pick up a weapon to defend his country, could he? Being in a position in the FBI means that you are defending your country. Not just with a computer, but with any means viable. It's really that simple. I have to explain this to my Marines all the time when they don't understand why we have to go out and run every morning. Or when we have to 5-10-15 mile hikes. They always want to fall back on, "we will never have to do this in a war". That's a bunch of crap. You have no idea what you will have to be doing with the **** hits the fan. Just my 2 cents.

Troy:

Actually, the FBI is chartered for operation within the United States, not outside of it. Your point that you never know what you will be doing is bunk in the FBI. While it is absolutely true that in the military a soldier should be totally flexible, it is not so with the FBI. Cross training is good for soldiers, but bad for people who have a steady profession (other than the broad profession of soldier). FOr instance, would you trust someone who was trained in computer security to do crime scene forensics? NO! Of course not!

On a slightly different note, I've been wanting to join the NSA for quite a few years, and I finally got a chance to interview, and take their polygraph tests for my security clearance, and you know why they didn't give me the security clearance, and concequently didn't hire me? Cause I smoked weed in the past 2 years. Keep in mind that I'm a college student, and I was going for a coop. I can see where they wouldn't want a person who is addicted to drugs, but they won't even allow people who recreationally use marijuana (I can count the number of times I smoked on two hands), yet I have yet to find a question like, "Do you drink to get drunk?" on their security forms. Same goes for the CIA. I think the NSA, CIA, and FBI, as well as other federal organizations, deserve every piece of chastisement they get because of their poor performance because they only choose people who have never done anything even remotely illegal in their lives, which can most certainly reduce the pool of seriously qualified applicants to a pool of very nerdy kids who only "kind of" know what they are doing. I won't even get into the lack of knowledge the kids at the NSA had when I met them.

Anyway...I think they deserve everything that is coming to them until they learn that no one in the world is truly squeeky clean.

Regards,
Wizeman

I think you need to look at what they are trying to do..

The FBI dont want balanced individuals, They dont want to invest in you if you run the risk of popping your cloggs next week.

I have worked in IT for about 15 years and have spent a lot of time at the keyboard.. and if you have piss poor health then you are no good to them. I know a lot og guys who are good out of the gate and piss poor on the home run. the FBI, NSA and such want you to have good health as it means you will be around for years (protection of investment). They can ship you around and still expect you to be able to put a days work in... and if it comes to the crunch a few days of long hours is not going to destroy your health.

But i would have to agree that the interview questions seam a little one sided one things like drugs are not squared with drink.


just a thought

So, to recap: If i smoked pot 14 times, then i can be a super ieeto fbi agent. If i have smoked 2 more times, then I can't? Oh yeah, is that 15 times (sessions) or 15 bowls? I guess either way i'm ****ed! :D

They could as easily have said 10, or 5, or once. What they're really going to look at is whether you pass and continue to pass the drug screen which, I assume, after hiring is random.

As for the fitness, it just makes sense. It's already been explained. Does anybody really believe they're going to work for the FBI or any other similar organization and not go through some type of training. It isn't done that way. Believe me, the physical training isn't that difficult. The FBI are white collar cops, meaning that their physical training isn't as tough as you'll find in say, the NYPD, LAPD, or most other police agencies where the officers are out working the streets.

I am a bit puzzled as to why they aren't planning to use the people for what they hired them for after graduation from the academy. That makes no sense. If they need them now, then use them now. Typical Federal operation, though. Five yrs down the road, things will change so much that the current crop of hackers, away from the computers for years, will be lost.