Bali Massacre

Hello All,
In my short time here in AO I have read and learned from posts/tutorials from many people including those effected by these bombings. I also have had the pleasure of traveling across the world and met many Australians New Zealanders, Germans, Dutch and English who I consider now to be friends and family. My heartfelt condolences go out to the victims, victims families and their fellow citizens. I am not sure if one can fully understand the individual pain that losing someone causes but most victims of terror can relate to the lingering horror such senseless acts leave behind. You are not alone in this struggle. These events in Bali serve notice to all freedom loving people in this world, regardless of religion or economic belief, that we are in the fight of our lives. It saddens me that this should come in our lifetime. What can we as security/computer/programming enthusiasts do to make our world safer for everyone?

Captfb

I'm sure there's a lot we can do. First, we can live our lives as we've always lived them. I refuse to go through the rest of my life looking over my shoulder or wondering if the restaurant or shopping mall I walk into is going to be vaporized. Nor will I be led into taking more precautions than I've ever taken.

As far as computers go, I'm assuming these characters are computer or Internet savvy and probably use them to transmit messages or instructions. I'm not knowledgeable in that area and, at my age, probably won't live long enough to become genuinely knowledgeable. I just can't believe all the talent and skill we have can't be focused on finding them via computer and disrupting them in some way.

I'm glad you started this thread the last one on this topic went belly up.

I hope everyone’s aware that this happened on the 2nd anniversary of the bombing of the USS Cole. And although al-Quada hasn’t claimed responsibility for this act we must remember they haven’t claimed responsibility for any of their acts of terror.

Young people on vacation, a college football team... the despicable nature of this is indescribable. How can anyone do this and call himself or herself human. They can’t even try to justify their actions, as they have with the US, by saying that these victims drop bombs on them or supply Israel with weapons.

This outrages me beyond words

I know this might be slightly off topic, but there was an explosion on a French oil tanker killing one and dumping almost 100k barrels of oil in the Gulf of Aden. Entire story here. In another incident(well two actually) US Marines came under fire in Kuwait on two separate occasions. In the first incident, two marines were shot, one is dead and the other is wounded. The attackers were apparently killed by the return fire. The 2nd incident is still under investigation. Good observation BTW Tedob.

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Originally posted here by Tedob1
I'm glad you started this thread the last one on this topic went belly up.

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Me too! Iv'e never had a thread top itself before - it was quite exciting!

And if the stokholm hijaker had made it on board that flight to London then it would have been very near on the aniversary of 9/11. Al-Quaida (though as I suggested in the thread that died I feel that there is the tendancy both in the media and at government level to use this a perjorative for all fundamenatlist activity in the current political climate) are fond of the use of symbolic targets/dates. Could this have been a secondary target? - it seems so poorly though out - so pointless - so self-destructive.

I was in Bali last month on holiday - my sincerest condolences to all those lost and injured, Australian, British and Indonesian.

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Originally posted here by Tedob1

They can’t even try to justify their actions, as they have with the US, by saying that these victims drop bombs on them or supply Israel with weapons.

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There are quite a few reasons that Australians are targets. The main two are-

1. Australia's involvement in East Timor

2. To a lesser degree, Australia blindly following the US in to battle has also made us more of a target....


Sadly, this event has affected my neighbours on a personal scale with the loss of loved ones. I can honestly say that I never thought terrorism would hit so close to home. Especially not next door. I guess I was just naive.


Is the "war on terrorism" achieving anything? Obviously not. Is just making matters worse? I think it is....


More military action isn't going to bring an end to these type of incidents. I fail to see how destroying the "axis of evil" (wtf is that, anyway?) is going to achieve anything, except piss more people off. There has to be a better way......

About 4 months ago, I was in the exact spot that the bomb went off and I do wish to send out my condolences to anyone affected, not only Australians, but I believe that other nationalities of people missing include Americans, New Zealanders, German, Dutch, English...

I also feel for the Balinese who make a living in and around the Kuta vicinity in Bali. Despite their living conditions, they are very happy and always have a cheerful manner. This tragedy will ruin these people, if not Indonesia.

Is it me, or is the world starting to spin out-of-control?

And if that wasn't bad enough, guess who will be in a coalition govt in Pakistan, or at least as a big opposition[Pakistan follows the British Parliamentary system]. After the recent elections there, it turns out an Islamist party has won quite a few number of seats. Enough to be able to start to change things there. The sad thing is that until recent times, the Islamists in Pakistan were always relegated to the sidelines, never getting enough votes etc, and hardly ever having any say in Govt affairs. It seems the war on terrorism has made some of the fence sitters change their minds for the worst.
Entire article here.

I had the chance to travel through southeast Asia last summer, I didn't go to Indonesia. Attacking a tourist resort like Bali is an act that cannot be categorized as human, it is a shame that beautiful tourist destinations become unsafe because of the hatred in some mad man's mind. It's gonna bring a crisis also on the Indonesian people, who like most southeast asians are friendly folk.

I just wanted to send my condolences out to all those affected by this, its starting to really hit the fan on this terrorist situation and I think soon we're going to have even more countries get involved to attack these groups and eliminate them. Although I think we all know, there's always going to be groups such as these somewhere and as soon as we eliminate one of them, another one will start to form and pop up somewhere else. Considering this what does everyone else think about this problem? Perhaps negotiations to radical groups or should we develop systems and special task forces to deal with them?

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Originally posted here by aut0psy
Perhaps negotiations to radical groups or should we develop systems and special task forces to deal with them?

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I don't think that negotiations with terrorist groups is an option. If they cared what the other side had to say then they wouldn't be blowing people up.

I can't remember who said it, but I remember reading it years ago..."Sometimes peace can only be obtained through the absolute use of force." There are times when you just have to blow the bad guys away for there to be peace.

First off think I should say, what happened is not the fault of “Muslims” and Allah any more than the Jamestown Gahanna Massacre or the Branch Dividians are the fault of Christians and Christ. The Muslims that live in the material world with us are just as much the infidels as we are.

What happened in Bali was not aimed at the Australians or the British or even the citizens of Bali. It was aimed at the entire non-Muslim world in general by a group of twisted fanatics that want to force their beliefs on the whole world. They want a war with us. That’s obvious. They believe their version of Allah will make them victorious. This is no longer about Israel its just about maddness. There is going to be a showdown.

That's about right, Ted, and isn't it always the way? The ninety nine percent of decent people in the world pay for the sins of the one percent.

Tedob1

I agree and somewhat disagree with what you say, as funny as that may say. In the broad sense of the attacks - yes, they are targetting the non-muslims of the world, the same could be said of Sept 11, but in more specific sense these people/groups are going to make a concerted effort to make examples of those they wish most harm against.

I believe this was a direct attack on Australia in an area the terrorist knew was going to be predominantly Australian, Bali has always been a mecca for young Australians who are looking for a cheap overseas holiday and many would have been from the West Coast where I live. The bar in question had a "no Indonesian" policy which meant as a target, the attackers knew local casualties would be minimal, if none at all and Australian casualties high.

Whether it turns out to be as C_K says, because of our involvement in East Timor and/or our clear alignment with the US, one may never know as confessing to these attacks is never one of their strong points. I tend to think it could be a combination of both.

Whatever the reason, these means will never justify the end.

I have seen four names so far from the survivors list that I know personally - some had just finished a tour as UN peacekeepers in East Timor - a postition I had nominated for in the past, but a serious car accident involving my wife left me unable to fulfill the role.

The names of those dead and missing are still unknown and the torment for these families must be the same as those who lost loved ones in the Sept 11 attacks.

While this is plain madness, the actions of these individuals are not going to impinge on my lifestyle and I see no reason to fear or despise the law abiding, peaceful people who follow the religion of Islam in this or any other country. I would hate to see radicals here target these people with the same blind hatred and bigotry displayed by the terrorists - two "wrongs" will never make a "right".

I would travel to Bali tomorrow if I had the opportunity if for no other reason but to support the Balinese and shove it up the noses of the bombers.

The letters from overseas writers to out local newspaper extending sympathy and condolences have been warmly received and should they ever get a chance to read this, I would like to thank them for taking the time to think of us "down under" and this is also extended to the writers in this forum.

anger..frustration...desperate need to beat sh1t out of someone. I am still reeling from the this.

Chasing extremists through the swamps and jungles of 14,000 indonesian islands is both reactionary and pointless however. Maybe this further tradgedy will finally steel international reslove to go after state sponsosrs of terrorism, cutting off the terrorists sources of funding, intelligence and arms.

We in the Uk are now gearing up (in terms of vaccinated medical staff, and vaccine) for a terrorist launched biological attack of small-pox. (The announcement went along the lines of, "No-one panic, but we want to buy enough small-pox vaccine to innoculate every man woman and child in the country"). It would almost seem that this is a reaction to a specific, but as yet unrevealed, threat to the population. The UK CME descibed an outbreak as, "just a matter of time".

No-ones shores are safe, every westerner is a target, civilian or not. Because of the nature of the conflict we are unlikley to be able to engage the enemy in a stand up knock down fight. For dealing with the individual terrorist the approach of the Mossad (small groups of highly trained special forces operating in terrorist style cells, to find and inhume the terrorists) is the only logical approach. But in taking this war to the enemy on an appreciable scale we have to take a pro-active approach aginst the sponsors of world terrorism. We know who they are, the UN knows who they are. It's time we did something about it. Certainly this attrocity in Bali proves that inaction in this regard does not reduce the risk of a further attrocity.

ntsa, Phat Penguin- It's good to see such common sense posts (instead of the "kill 'em all" shite that usually goes with these posts) on such a difficult topic....


I had always believed in the saying "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"...Perhaps I still do. I had always understood (and not always agreed with) the assassination of a political figure or the destroying of a Government building. It makes sense, in a macabre kind of way...


But to kill so many innocent, working class people is beyond me. Wether it be 9/11, Bali, or even infecting the UK (has ntsa suggested) with smallpox. What does it achieve? IMHO, all it does is turn what little support the terrorists had into total hatred...You aren't going to win the sympathy of the masses with such actions....


I'm a member of The Australian Socialist Party (who would've guessed!). Even these people are in total shock...It's just plain crazy. We all want change....but killing innocent people? It seems to me that it's just killing for the sake of killing. I see no political point whatsoever...

I hate to bring this back to the front page, but I was curious after ConfirmedKill's post saying something about Australian involvement in East Timor. So here's an excerpt from an article about the Australian govt's relationship with the Indonesian govt...

Disclaimer: This is not to justify killing whatsover, but merely to shed some light on the background.

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State terrorism, backed by America, Britain and Australia, has scarred Indonesia for the past 40 years. For example, the source of the worst violence is the Indonesian army, which the West has supported and armed. Today, troops continue to terrorise the provinces of Aceh and West Papua, where they are "protecting" the American Exxon oil company's holdings and the Freeport mine.

In West Papua, the army openly supports an Islamic group, Lashkar Jihad, which is linked to al-Qaeda.

THIS is the same army which the Australian government trained for decades and publicly defended when its terrorism became too blatant.

In 1999, when the people of Australia's closest northern neighbour, East Timor, which had been invaded and annexed by the Indonesia dictatorship of General Suharto, finally had an opportunity to vote for independence and freedom, it was the government of John Howard that betrayed them. Although warned by Australia's intelligence agencies that the Indonesian army was setting up militias to terrorise the population, Howard and his foreign minister, Alexander Downer, claimed they knew nothing; and the massacres went ahead. As leaked documents have since revealed, they did know.

This was only the latest in Australia's long complicity with state terrorism in Indonesia, which makes a mockery of the self-deluding declarations last week that Australia had "lost its innocence" in Bali. Certainly, few Australians are aware that not far from their holiday hotels are mass graves with the remains of some of more than 80,000 people murdered in Bali in 1965-66 with the connivance of the Australian government.

Recently-released files reveal that when the Indonesian tyrant General Suharto seized power in the 1960s, he did so with the secret backing of the American, British and Australian governments, which looked the other way or actively encouraged the slaughter of more than half a million "communists". This was later described by the CIA as "one of the worst mass murders of the 20th Century".

The Australian Prime Minister at the time, Harold Holt, quipped: "With 500,000 to a million communist sympathisers knocked off, I think it's safe to assume a reorientation has taken place." Holt's remark accurately reflected the collaboration of the Australian foreign affairs and political establishment. The Australian embassy in Jakarta described the massacres as a "cleansing process". In Canberra, officals in the Prime Minister's department expressed support for "any measures to assist the Indonesian army cope with the internal situation".

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Entire article can be found here

And once again big money plunders for more money and we have to pay the price.

This happened, i have no doubt. So why is the comman man targeted and not exxon and the rest, or even defense sites or government buildings. What are we supposed to say, ok you have a right to be angry, kill who you like. we understand?

Agreed, and to add, I only have to say this and it's simple: Why does it take a 9/11 or Bali in order for countries to see that terror exsists widely in today's world. I think we really need to combat terror with full force and that countries really need a wake-up call, just not a massacre to wake them up. They need to see it now, before it punches them in the face and then they respond. This is all strickly JMO, but I do think that countries need to find out what they call peace. If countries such as Iraq say they want peace, why do they invade other's countries for land, oil, etc. Again, I think they need to define for me their definition of peace.

To Tedob1,

I was not justifying killing, and no, no one should take it laying down. But people also need to make their govts accountable. Transparency is key, no more black ops and the like. No more overthrowing democracies( Iran in '53 coz Mossadeq decided to nationalize the oil industry ), which lead people like Khomeini to power. No more Pinochet, Noriega Zia(who incidentally was....erhhmm..."liquidated " when he outgrew his usefulness), and a supporting cast of thousands.

End rant :D

To Spyder,

define peace for me will ya?

Mahakaal: I asked you first ;) No, actually my definition of peace in simple terms would be Happiness and Kindess towards others. I'm more than likely wrong, I don't have my dictionary with me, but that is somewhat what I think.

Heh, found the dictionary. Here is what it says:


1 : a state of tranquillity or quiet: as a : freedom from civil disturbance b : a state of security or order within a community provided for by law or custom
2 : freedom from disquieting or oppressive thoughts or emotions
3 : harmony in personal relations
4 a : a state or period of mutual concord between governments b : a pact or agreement to end hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of enmity
5 -- used interjectionally to ask for silence or calm or as a greeting or farewell
- at peace : in a state of concord or tranquillity


I'd have to say I agree more than likely.

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I was not justifying killing, and no, no one should take it laying down.

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Mahakaal im sorry if it seemed i was saying that, i was not CK. made a statement, you went looking for more info on it, and posted what you found. im glad you did, i was kinda of in the dark as to what happened there. i know those arn't you thoughts...well maybe a little.

to do away with covert ops is treating the symptoms. we need to return to to a policy of minding our own buisness and not interferring with the internal politics of other nations. The people of the united states don't want to exploit others. The reason we do this is big money has the current politicians in their pockets. Its greed pure and simple. we need all new people running this country our 2 party system no longer serves the people.

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Originally posted here by Tedob1
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I was not justifying killing, and no, no one should take it laying down.

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Mahakaal im sorry if it seemed i was saying that, i was not CK. made a statement, you went looking for more info on it, and posted what you found. im glad you did, i was kinda of in the dark as to what happened there. i know those arn't you thoughts...well maybe a little.

to do away with covert ops is treating the symptoms. we need to return to to a policy of minding our own buisness and not interferring with the internal politics of other nations. The people of the united states don't want to exploit others. The reason we do this is big money has the current politicians in their pockets. Its greed pure and simple. we need all new people running this country our 2 party system no longer serves the people.

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This is slightly off topic, but to many people in the UK, this is related to Northern Ireland.
Why does the US feel that it has the authority to interfere in the affairs of the UK (except for the obvious reason of getting votes from Irish voters)?
For years the US has been at best passively supporting terrorists who have been killing soldiers and civillians in Northern Ireland & the mainland UK.
But of course, that's OK, because they are 'freedom fighters'.
I'm not saying that the situation in Ireland is ideal, but there are considerable question marks at the moment as to whether former terrorist leaders are really committed to a peacefull resolution of the situation.