Don't mess with Russia

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Russian special forces early today captured control of the Moscow theater where Chechen rebels had been holding 700 hostages, after a dramatic pre-dawn battle inside the building that resulted in most of the guerrillas being killed and large numbers of hostages either dead or wounded.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Oct25.html

I have nothing but admiration for the Russians in how they handled
this incident. The Chechens do not deserve to have an independent
state, and the USA should apologize to Russia for all the irresponsible
criticism we have thrown at them over the Chechen war.

A lot of Chechens were in Afganistan with the Taliban forces.
Russia is fighting our fight on another front, defending civilization
from a new evil, more deadly than the Nazi regime of world war two.

There has been a fundamental realignment of alliances
in world politics, and we had better learn who our friends are
and which ones are laying in wait to ambush us.
:cool:

Definitely got to agree, and I think that the U.S can consider Russia a friend. It would definitely not be a good thing to have them against us, as they sure as hell aren't a weak country. Having them with us in any war (war on terrorism?) would help us. I believe Russia is after peace in a sense, as well as us, or they wouldn't have done what they did to get back the Theatre from the Chechans.

Mess with the best. Die like the rest.

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more deadly than the Nazi regime of world war two

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I really have to question that affirmation! Ok maybe more american civilians got killed on September 11th then during WW2 (not even sure of that). But casualties wise, WW2 is yet to be surpassed by any war and I don't think we will see such a deadly war soon.

I feel Russia could be a valuble ally,but the fact of the matter is,they have to be willing to back us in the war on terror.Russia has always had their own way of doing things,and doesn't like to rely on allies to help them(not the worst idea in the world).Russia has proven throughout history that defense can often be the best offense.It's very hard to destroy a country if you can't effectively invade them...just ask Hitler.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Russia a friend though.Not to say it wouldn't be beneficial to both the US and Russia,but I think they hesitate to be our friend because so many nations have grown dependant on our technology and rescources and they don't want to be dependant on anyone but themselves(another smart move on their part).There is a long standing rivalry between the US and Russia that remains from the cold war,and needs to be eliminated before we can call each other friends.As horrible as the war on terror is and will be,I think this very well may be the thing that breaks the rest of the ice left over from the cold war.

Russia can never be completely independandt because they can't grow enough food for their entire population. That and the fact that Russia doesn't really have that much money as a nation, which is evident by the US having to build half of the parts Russia promised for international space station.

Russia would be a valuable ally though, they're very resiliant.

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Originally posted by Rcgreen
I have nothing but admiration for the Russians in how they handled
this incident.

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More than 90 hostages died because of the Russian raid. At least half of the hostages are wounded, lots of them unconscious and seriously ill, because of a yet unknown nerve-gas the Russians used.
I have to agree a raid was the only logical solution, but Russian troops have a tradition of ending hostage situations with lots of victims. This time, the Russians have 'won' (although I think it's highly disrescpectful to speak of 'winning' here with 90 dead hostages).
What's so 'special' about troops who kill 90 hostages anyways?

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Originally posted here by rcgreen
The Chechens do not deserve to have an independent
state, and the USA should apologize to Russia for all the irresponsible
criticism we have thrown at them over the Chechen war.

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Irresponsible criticism? Come on, what the Russians are doing in Checheny cannot be excused. The reports coming from Checheny talks about whole people being oppressed, and because of the Twin Tower incident the whole world has forgotten about what's happening over there. The war in Checheny is a big disaster, a catastrophy, and the people living there is experiencing hell on earth.

Every responsible goverment should criticise Russia for their actions, but politics and positioning once again has left a whole people suffering under a super power.

Don't forget, the Chechen war started when Bill/Hillary was President. They did nothing, preferring to focus on Serbia. The Chechens are, and always have been, hated by the Russians. I think they saw it as an opportunity to rid themselves of the problem. I have a hunch they expected to roll in and end it quickly. Obviously, they were wrong and the people of that tiny country are and will suffer for years to come. Russia isn't going to be pushed into anything they don't want. They've always been that way and a decade of "sort of" democracy isn't enough to change them.

I just have to wonder what each one of us would have done, if we were the Grand-Poobah of a planetary superpower and some bunch of murderous radicals invaded our neighborhood, took our friends and neighbors captive and proceeded to take over our turf? Can anyone remember back to the first time some bully spit in your face or pushed one of your friends down in the mud? Come on, admit it, you didn't enter into a long drawn-out negotiation, you busted the bully's chops before he even saw it coming! As for the Russians, no i probably wouldn't trust them 100-percent, but i'd sure rather have them for an ally than anyone else in that part of the planet. And if they don't trust anyone else 100-percent, a quick look at their history for the past few hundred years might explain part of it. One thing for sure; anyone who lives in the rough (survivalist?) country that some of them do is gonna be tough as nails. Don't forget it was not too long ago that some of these same invaders left a suitcase bomb in Gorky Park. One thing is for sure; if you let little bullys poke you in the eye without being severely reprimanded, there will be more little bullys poking your eye tomorrow. Anyway, that's the way i see it. Would i have taken care of the hostage thing the same way? Maybe not with the use of the same munitions, but i definitely would have taken care of it, probably sooner than the Russians did. If you smack a stranger in the chops and he gives you a permanent limp it was obvious you picked on the wrong stranger. If you draw on a cop and he smokes you with all 13-rounds, it's your fault so don't bitch with your dying breath. If terrorists invade you and they get smoked in the process, then that's the way life goes. Maybe the next bunch of lowlifes will think twice before they invade and take hostages. For a current story of how these radicals train against civilization, check out the Asia-TImes. <offsoapboxnow>

I'm rather suprized you all think that way, "Russia can't be considered as a friend yet". Man, the cold war has been over for years. Even George W. Bush seems to be a very good friend of Putin's. I'm sure that Russia will want to fight against terrorism, as abstract concept as it is (meaning that you can put a lot of unjustified acts in the name of anti-terrorism). That's what they claim to be doing in Chechenia at the moment.

Then about the situation in the theatre. I was almost certain that it would end to the theatre blowing up in the air, taking all the 700 hostages + terrorists + special troops with it. Considering that, the fact that "only" 1/7 of the hostages died (makes about 100 of them) the operation was quite well accomplished. The gas was pretty smart move as the terrorists didn't get a change to detonate the explosives, wonder what gas it was... Something that very quickly takes effect on the central nervous system of the victim stopping their heart, obviously.

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More than 90 hostages died because of the Russian raid. At least half of the hostages are wounded, lots of them unconscious and seriously ill, because of a yet unknown nerve-gas the Russians used.

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I don't know if you saw the video of the terrorists before thay were killed,but I did and considering half of them had bombs strapped to their waist and all of them had guns,90 hostage deaths seems like a decent job on the part of the Russians to me.In a situation like that there's really no other options but to go in shooting,and when you do so there's going to be deaths on all sides of the conflict.It's amazing how people glorify death when there's casualties in the hundreds of thousands and even millions,but when casualties are low it's always the fault of the people putting their lives on the line for trying to save the lives of the innocent.I'm not Chechan(don't know about the spelling),and I'm not Russian,so I can't say who the good guys and the bad guys are,but I do know anyone on either side targeting non-combatants is wrong.

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Russia isn't going to be pushed into anything they don't want.

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The same could be said about the US.

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Originally posted here by gghornet
I don't know if you saw the video of the terrorists before thay were killed,but I did and considering half of them had bombs strapped to their waist and all of them had guns,90 hostage deaths seems like a decent job on the part of the Russians to me.

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Ninety deaths seem like a decent job? Tell that to the families of those killed....


The thing that really annoyed me about this whole situation is how the western media constantly threw around the latest buzz word, terrorist. ****ing pathetic. It seems like the real winner out of this catastrophe was the Bush regime and the push for support to wipe out the "axis of evil".....what ever that means.

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Originally posted here by Conf1rm3d_K1ll




Ninety deaths seem like a decent job? Tell that to the families of those killed....

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This has to be it. You want to say that 90 people was pretty good, like Confirmed said, tell that to the mothers or fathers who won't see their kids grow up or anything. Tell that to all of the 90 people's families, and then we'll see what happens. I think pretty high of Russia, despite their current situation and everything, but you need to remember that we are pretty good friends with the World's Power's these days. I'm counting England, France, and China (despite spy plane incident, we have a good relationship with them). As for Bush and his 'axis of evil' comment, I don't think he should have said it and it could have made matters worse for him and/or the current "War on Terror". The only reason Bush were to get involved in a war that Russia is having, is to solidate the peace between them, so that when the time is right, Bush will expect them to do the same. I couldn't say it better than Confirmed_Kill's, "Pathetic".

What do you call a mob of people storming a theater with bombs strapped to their waists and armed with guns if they're not terrorists.

My sympathies to the familys of those who did die,but for those of you critisizing the Russian gov't fotr how they handled the situation what would you have done?Do you think you could have done a better job?It has been shown over and over again that it's nearly impossible to take out 1 terrorist without a few casualties,not to mention a large goup of them with bombs and guns and surrounded by hostages.

Like I said before,I'm in no position to judge which side is right or wrong between them,but anyone who specifically targets civilians is wrong.The people who do so are accomplishing exactly what their goal is,and that is getting people to say...OH poor little terrorists.They didn't do anything wrong by taking innocent people hostage,beating them,and threatening to kill them all with bombs if their demands aren't met.It's not the terrorists who deserve to die.It's the people who were trying to prevent the whole mess of them from getting killed that were wrong by letting 10% of them get killed.

Tell that to the families of those that got killed.Better yet tell that to yourself if it's ever your life and the lives of your family members stuck in a theater somewhere with a mob of fanatical terrorists,waiting for someone,anyone to come in and take these people out before they get even more pissed and blow the whole lot of you to hell.

Russia had two real choices in this matter.Give in to terrorist demands(which then signals to every terrorist organization on the face of the earth that it's a great place to kidnap people,hijack planes,and whatever else,because Russia will meet those demands...what is there to lose in that?)don't give in to their demands and leave them in the theater to kill everyone in there,or go in and save all of the lives they can.If I was a gov't official in Russia,I would have made the exact same decision.

When I mentioned that Bush and Putin are good friends I didn't think of this situation, of course Bush had to tell that the US supports Russia in this horrible situation and blah blah, just as every other country did. But the happenings before, like when Bush and Putin agreed to lower the number of nukes in both countries, that's something.

The Chechens who took over the theatre and got killed did achieve something undeniable. They brought back up the conversation about Chechenia as it was forgotten after the Twin Tower incident, just as proactive already said.

Number of victims/style of the attack: It's now been said (though not confirmed) that they used just sleeping gas which should only "knock out" the targets. The gas isn't lethal as is but it can be lethal to sick people and/or to those who are in bad condition, like all the hostages were. So in this viewpoint they should have started the attack much sooner and shouldn't have waited for the terrorists to start killing people. It was clear since the beginning that these guys know exactly what they want and won't surrender. They probably laughed when they heard that Russia would "let them come out alive if they just didn't hurt the hostages": they were prepared to die and knew they would.

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Originally posted here by gghornet
What do you call a mob of people storming a church with bombs strapped to their waists and armed with guns if they're not terrorists.

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Firstly, it wasn't a church. :rolleyes:


Secondly, Ruusia is at war with Chechnya. It's not like this is an unprovoked attack. It's a terrible tragedy that civillians were targetted, but I still see it as an act of war.



On a side note, here's a link to the countless Russian atrocities carried out in Chechnya.

There fixed the church thing.

Anyway my being a dumba55 isn't the issue here.I went through a couple of the links,and I agree that Russia was wrong in what they did,but does that make Chechnya right in doing what they did?If that's the case,why didn't the US just drop a nuke on Afghanistan disreguarding civilian casualties because terrorists from their country killed civilians in our country.Two wrongs don't make a right.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but two wrights made an airplane! Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyways, umm, What Russia did isn't right but you gotta understand the meaning of a retaliatory attack. It wasn't the right thing to do, but if someone invaded your house and shot everything up, are you going to sit there and bitch? No, your going to do something about it.

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Originally posted here by gghornet
There fixed the church thing.

Anyway my being a dumba55 isn't the issue here.I went through a couple of the links,and I agree that Russia was wrong in what they did,but does that make Chechnya right in doing what they did? If that's the case,why didn't the US just drop a nuke on Afghanistan disreguarding civilian casualties because terrorists from their country killed civilians in our country.Two wrongs don't make a right.

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What did Chechenya do then? You're generalizing this to a we--them -setting too much. Those who invaded the theatre weren't sent by any Chechenian government so you can't blame Chechenia for that in the way you sound you are blaming.

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Secondly, Ruusia is at war with Chechnya. It's not like this is an unprovoked attack. It's a terrible tragedy that civillians were targetted, but I still see it as an act of war.

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Chechnya is not a legitimate sovereign nation. It was part of Russia
for centuries, but took advantage of the collapse of communism
to break away. They weren't satisfied with independence, but immediately
sent forces into other regions to expand their power.

I don't know what your government would do if some province
decided on its own authority to declare its independence,
but here in Virginia they tried it once in the 1860s. Federal troops
ravaged the Shenandoah valley (where I live) and hanged
hostages in my home town.

If every self-declared ethnic group could have its own nation,no government on earth would survive. Belgium would break in half
Britain into 3 or 4 parts, the USA would be broken into a dozen
warring nations.

Russia was willing to accept Chechen independence, but the Chechens
simply got too greedy.

There should be one iron law on hostage taking:

"You take hostages, you die"
:cool:

BTW, the US general who hanged the hostages was George
Armstrong Custer. Acouple of dudes by the names of Sitting Bull
and Crazy Horse set his ass straight at the battle of little bighorn
a few years later.

http://www.loudoun-net.com/jonpardo/Rhodes.htm

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/peop...crazyhorse.htm

Human rights abuses by the Russian Federation courtesy of Amnesty International

What exactly is a "legitimate" sovereign nation? America, by that definition is not a "legitimate" sovereign nation.

117 hostages died, and still counting... good job :/

583 haven't died,and you still haven't answered the question of how you would recommend the Russian gov't should have handled the situation(Refer to second to last post).No intelligent country gives in to the demands of terrorists,because it's sticks a big fat sign above your nation saying "We are willing to negotiate with terrorists,kidnap/hijack here."And if Chechnya's claim is true and they didn't send these people into the theater,then that is exactly what they are TERRORISTS!!!

I also have to agree with rcgreen on the fact that a country can't just allow everybody that thinks they deserve their own little chunk have it.Although here in the US,everybody screams racism from time to time,and everybody feels a little descriminated from time to time,for the most part we manage to get along no matter what the cultural diversity.Since the demise of the USSR,there's like a hundred little countries scattered throughout that area.What happens if you let the Chechens have what they think they deserve?Then every other little country thinks they deserve a slightly bigger chunk of land,and they'll all end up blasting each other back into the stone age over petty boarder squabbles,and the big countries in Asia are going to remain the same size.

Europe went through the same thing for centuries,and I'm sure still has some of that going on.The large empires are still today the larges countries in Europe,and the countries that spent all that time,money,and lives trying to push their boarder 50 miles further are poor,starving,and filled with disease.I think the Chechans need to be greatful for what they have,and worry about making what they have into a decent place to live before worrying about having more land to have to take care of.

I can't answer that question, gghornet. All I know is that 118 death people out of 700 is NOT a 'great job'. I never said they should have negotiated with the 'terrorists'. You're absolutely right when you say that no intelligent country should give in to the demands of terrorists.
The way they handled it is what bothers me though. Using nerve-gas to take them out was just not the brightest idea, imho.

How about if it was expressed that six out of seven hostages were rescued? Sounds quite good to me, considering that I was pretty sure six out of seven were going to die.

They really didn't have much choice with the gas. It was just sleeping gas but they shot (executed) the stunned terrorists. Hostage deaths were because of the overall bad condition of them in there, some of course got a bullet or broken piece of something. If even one terrorist would have had the time to explode a bomb, it could have lead to a chain reaction of explosions and everyone getting killed.


Something to read for everyone:
http://www.snipercountry.com/Article...usTakedown.htm
http://emernet.emergency.com/fbihost.htm

Hold your horses, ZeroOne, hold your horses... there still are 150 people in intensive care, 45 of them being in critical condition. Not to mention the other 650 who still are in hospital.
The gas being used is probably a gas developed in the early 90's, and has never been used before in times of peace. I guess this was a good opportunity to test the gas.... Too bad they didn't know how to dose it yet. It was NOT just sleeping gas. Only one of the -untill now- 117 victims was killed by gunfire, the others were killed by the gas. Other experts say the deaths are due to the late administering of the antidote.
Shot the terrorists? Government officials have confirmed that probably only 2 terrorists were shot. The others died because of the gas.

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Lev Fyodorov, president of Russian's Union for Chemical Safety
"This was a military operation using non- lethal chemical weapons developed during the Cold War.
They would have been intended for a military opponent."

As such, Mr Fyodorov said the authorities would be unable to prevent deaths of civilians in an enclosed space like the theatre.

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Originally posted here by ZeroOne

It was just sleeping gas but they shot (executed) the stunned terrorists.

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The latest reports (on Australian radio) are claiming that the gas used was the Superhallucinogenic BZ gas.

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Superhallucinogenic BZ gas was employed as a counterinsurgency weapon on a limited basis during the Vietnam war. The army eventually concluded that shifting wind patterns, BZ's tendency to trigger maniacal behavior, and the difficulties of controlling the amount of BZ absorbed during combat undermined its usefulness as a nonlethal incapacitant. An overdose of BZ could be fatal.

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Source


History of BZ

this was really a no win situation. use gas to minimze casualities, their wrong, do nothing and let the hostages be executed, it's why didn't they act. pull their troops out of Chechnya and everyone with what they think is a cause, will start taking hostages.

troops with no ties to anyone inside were told to rush a building rigged to blow. i think they did the right thing.

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Originally posted here by Tedob1
this was really a no win situation. use gas to minimze casualities, their wrong, do nothing and let the hostages be executed, it's why didn't they act. pull their troops out of Chechnya and everyone with what they think is a cause, will start taking hostages.

troops with no ties to anyone inside were told to rush a building rigged to blow. i think they did the right thing.

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You are right when saying not to compromise when talking about terrorism. But was there really no other gas they could have used? If they knew what possible problems / deaths could occur with the gaz why did they not take precautions like antidotes, more medics?

On the otherhand if you see the ammount of explosives and the number of terrorists, you can imagine that they needed to use a very effective gaz. If the total number of killings was lower, i would say "well done!", but now...

The rumour goes this was a KGB operation (set up) ;)

I'm quite much with Tedob1 here. Remember that an overdose of anything is lethal, more if you haven't eaten or drunken in several days. Would any of you have come up with a better solution than gas? I wouldn't.

Btw, FYI VictorKaum, KGB doesn't exist anymore, it's called FSB ("Federal Security Service" in Russian) nowadays. I can see your smiley there but I'd still state that Russia would have definitely wanted to keep Chechenya out of the headlines, so it would have been stupid for FSB. However I might even accept that the two blocks of flats that blew up a couple of years ago were blown by the government just only to get an excuse to attack Chechenya. Which they did.

I dont like war period so i think both sides have some blame toward it. Attacking each other period is wrong. Im against war, so sorry.

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Originally posted here by ZeroOne
Btw, FYI VictorKaum, KGB doesn't exist anymore, it's called FSB ("Federal Security Service" in Russian) nowadays. I can see your smiley there but I'd still state that Russia would have definitely wanted to keep Chechenya out of the headlines, so it would have been stupid for FSB.

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;) thx for the correction I will try to remember FSB.

First of all, beaing russian, I am very surprised that no russians replyed to this thread, isn't there any? I am a new member, so can only reply now. I do disagree with most of your statements and agree with some, here are my comments:

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Originally posted by mrcofee12 on 10-26-2002 05:46 PM

Russia can never be completely independandt because they can't grow enough food for their entire population. That and the fact that Russia doesn't really have that much money as a nation, which is evident by the US having to build half of the parts Russia promised for international space station.

Russia would be a valuable ally though, they're very resiliant.

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In a modern world no country can be fully independent, but to your knoledge, Russia is an agricultural country with the population of 148m people and land area of over 17 000 000 sq km. Do you really think we can't grow enough food for ourself ??? We export alot more than produce. I don't think that lack of money was expressed correctly, but however you express it, I have to agree. Not sure about the weight of the space station argument.
For the last sentents, and everyone who posted similar ones: Don't think that the whole world is on the knees in front of US, this is not up to you to decide whether we will be your friends or not. Russia is a mature country, which have invested (in one or the other form) large ammounts of money in American and European banks and therefore helped your economy more than you will ever help Russia. We may not be as advance in technology as US, but there are numerous reasons for this including closed regime. The most important factor, IMHO, is the industrial decentrilasation. You can blame Micro$oft however you want, but you have to accept the fact that this company invested alot (not money though :) ) into technology. There is countless number of amazing american US companies - SUN, Apple, SGI, HP, IBM, Bell etc etc. In Russia, most of the companies tend to be very small and therefore uncapable of large scale projects. The only succesful company is 1C, which does accounting software. The long term investments not interesting yet dengerous to be considered as a serious business projects for russian companies. Software piracy is also one of the biggest enemies for technological advances; It is almost impossible to find licensed software anywhere in Russia apart from Moscow and St.Petersburg.

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Originally posted by pr0active on 10-26-2002 06:53 PM

Irresponsible criticism? Come on, what the Russians are doing in Checheny cannot be excused. The reports coming from Checheny talks about whole people being oppressed, and because of the Twin Tower incident the whole world has forgotten about what's happening over there. The war in Checheny is a big disaster, a catastrophy, and the people living there is experiencing hell on earth.

Every responsible goverment should criticise Russia for their actions, but politics and positioning once again has left a whole people suffering under a super power.

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I neither agree nor disagree with this post. Obviously, country like Russia can stop the whole thing in no time. Chechens do not represent any kind of serious enemy for Russia, as well as Taliban for America or any similar case. However, politics is dirty by nature, and bigger countries trying to take advatage of the war. WAR is the quickest and most efficient way billions and humans lifes do not concern certain individuals in Russia (PLEASE, do not confuse "People in Russia" with "Russians"). You may be right about expirience of chechens, but this is nothing, comparing to number feelings of mothers in Russia, who lost their sons in this war. The methods, russians used in war are very different from those imployed by chechens. Are familiar with Hospital capture in Budionovsk? Kidnapping?
About Chechen independency: chechens never really wanted to be part of Russia. They tryed to gain independency during Stalin's times, but he how to fight it, becides no commercial reasons were sought after. During socialism times, Russia could hold this country within the Union by providing it with all the best. While Russians were sharing flats between several families chechens were living in huge houses. When the idea of communism colapsed, noone, of course, wanted to keep supporting this and number of other countries. The reason, which prevented Russia to give full independency to Chechnia is OIL.
I, myself, is not a supporter of racism, but I hate most chechens and there are reasons for this.
There are many chechens in Russia. Most of them are criminals. They are the ones, who make up many of the Russian groups known as "Russian Mafia" - Totally different from "Mafia" though. They kill people in Russia. Many parts of russian cities are controlled by chechens. They are animals from nature, they can kill a human much easier than Russian or American. Having achived nothing for their history, they think they are the supirior nation and if allah is not your god you have to dye.
They do follow religion in their country and have respect for other people their, but I don't see anything but crime from them in my country.


My opinion about the Theatre.
We can only judge the outcome of one case. There may be many reasons for Russian govmnt to act as they did. Suggestions about different gas. This might have been the least dangerous gas, which would act fast enough might not be that inicent. Terrorists had explosions right on them, remember. What, in your opinion, would be priority: 100-200 hostages or All the hostage + everything else around in this situation? The sleeping gas suggestion is hard to fall on though.

Terrorism usualy has a reason.

I'm not defending terrorism, but I deffinately am not defending the "War on terrorism".
Most forms of terrorism happen out of year long suppression by the people they attack, take the palestines in israel, they were forced to move from their land (for over a 1000 years) about 50 years ago. No wonder their pissed.

Same thing about the chechens, they were forced (and still are) to obey to the russians.
Let them have their land.

I don't ever agree with terrorist attacks, but this whole war on terrorism is just as bad (IMHO).

"Russia is fighting our fight on another front, defending civilization
from a new evil, more deadly than the Nazi regime of world war two."

You aren't even close the Nazi regime controlled all of Europe except Britain Spain and
Switzerland they controlled the Atlantic ocean with there u-boats (they sunk lots of
Canadian ships) they nearly over ran Russia, they blitized the hell out england they came close to
extinguishing a race all within 5 years how can you even compare?