Taking full advantage of 9/11
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eek is right!!!
suddenly hacking is worse than murder?
this is a scary thing. here comes big brother!
Yah that's about what it seems to amount to... murderers and rapists go free in a few years with some good behavior while g33ks get locked down for life. what gives? lol
F'in gag me.That's rediculous.What does congress know about security?Absolutely nothing.They don't even know how to write a damn document using word pad,they have to pay somebody to do it for them.This brings me to my point.How can a group of people so computer illiterate be expected to pass reasonable laws reguarding computer security?It's not like you can f%$king telnet into the Department of Treasury's bank accounts and transfer the money into your checking account.Congress is getting all of their info second hand from big corporate monopolies such as M$,who want people to be locked up for life to prevent their software from being pirated.This makes me sick.I usually take a right wing stand on almost any subject,but this IS CRAPPPPPP.Then the question arises about spoofed ip's.Lets say for example I spoofed my ip,and it just so happens it was yours that came up.The person that got hacked,reports it to your ISP and next thing you know you have a team of CIA agents in full combat dress come over and kick down your door and haul you off to prison,never to see your wives/husbands,children,and other family members again(at least not without a big hunk of plexi-glass between you),all because being the lamer you came up with a new idea for an exploit,and wanted to try it out.Granted it may have been wrong to test it on an unsuspecting victim,but is it really worth life in prison?Hell no!!!!There's child molestors,murderers,rapeists,and any other kind of disgusting monsters you can imagine walking the streets today after serving 4-7 years in prison because they went with a plea bargain and behaved well in prison,and the government has the nerve to tell computer geeks who deface a web site and put a mustache on the picture of your mom that they're getting life in prison?Screw a whole bunch of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Earlier this year, Smith said: ?Until we secure our cyberinfrastructure, a few keystrokes and an Internet connection is all one needs to disable the economy and endanger lives. A mouse can be just as dangerous as a bullet or a bomb.?
can anyone spot the slight exaggeration? lol...
Scary stuff and, what's worse, it's liable to pass. Also, did anyone see the FoxNews report that Uncle Sam is sinking several hundred million dollars into some sort of mega computer that will allow them to read every single thing you send or receive online via keystrokes? They can do it now with email and instant messenger conversations, but this is even more advanced and intrusive, similar to having a keylogger in your computer. And, it will all be done from the Washington area.
Obviously, they'll use some sort of flag system like they have now for email. So, if you type 'bomb' or something, you'll raise a flag and your online activity is liable to be monitored for a while.
That for the megacomputers who will check every word is very interesting ... where can i find more information about this?
well they jail hackers now also, so what's the big deal ?
in any case, hackers aint gonna stop, yeah newbies will have to be careful, of course :)
The problem is that hackers are feared. They know a lot about things that most people have no clue about, and people are afraid of what they do not understand. People simply do not realize that most hacks are more or less harmless. There is too much of a climate of fear around it for most citizens to think clearly about it. On top off all that the media completely blows everything out of proportion every time something big happens.
What did MafiaBoy do? He was a script kiddie with a simple DDoS tool. Most people I know think he actually hacked into all these systems and by some wit of magic took them all down. Yet to the ignorant he is revered as an antigod of commputer hacking.
If people had been targeting groups like the KKK and kiddie porn sites, imagine how different the stereotype would be...
i read on a Swedish IT related news site that this would only apply if the cracker had endangered someones life or danger of serious personal injury...
you guys read anything like that anywhere??.. if that is the case then i don't have that much of a problem with it, imagine someone screwing up the computers of a power faciliy and a hospital gets out of electricity for a couple of hours and people die or something like that, than i don't see the diffrence betwen the cracker and a cold blooded murderer...
Yeah as long as they have to prove that you've done real harm endangering lives then that seems to make more sense that they should do something about you. And I agree... the .gov is scared. They seem to want to "nip this problem in the bud"... but they're going about it the wrong way.
<RANT>
Grr... IMO theres too many f$%king laws already.
Seriously why don't they teach you state and federal laws in school...
before you can get thrown in jail for not knowing them!
Minnesota... the land of 10,000 laws (not lakes)
</RANT>
I understand that breaking into a computer alone wouldn't cause anyone any harm (other than economic burdens needed to clean up your mess), but the bill specifies actions that would cause physical or economic harm. There are lots of people that would like to break into a computer with the desire to directly or indirectly endanger people's lives or the economy. Here are some dangerous scenarios that would satisfy that very prospect:
1) Air traffic control systems. Flights that were once in the air are now mysteriously on the ground...in several pieces. Result: lots of innocent civilians killed.
2) NYSE stock systems. "Holy sh1t! AT&T, Qwest, and MCI stocks are all down 3000 points! SELL! SELL!" Result: economic recession/depression.
3) Law Enforcement systems. "I'd like to sell you a list of every American undercover FBI/CIA/DEA/NSA/OCB/NRO/ATF/Secret Service agent in the world and their locations. Result: lots of dead law enforcement agents.
4) Power Plant systems. All the power goes off in Las Vegas because Hoover Dam has gone offline. The Strip is littered with automobile accidents.
I think the bill was written for the people who would consider this sort of thing.
I have several mixed feelings about this subject.
But, to eliminate any confusion, Murder is Murder.
Spying, crakin, hackin, seeping, hitting the motherload
and taking down the stuck up rich is just plain HUMAN.
Has Never happened, even with lots of psychopaths who know lots about computers aroundQuote:
Originally posted here by roswell1329
1) Air traffic control systems. Flights that were once in the air are now mysteriously on the ground...in several pieces. Result: lots of innocent civilians killed.
Also has never happened.Quote:
2) NYSE stock systems. "Holy sh1t! AT&T, Qwest, and MCI stocks are all down 3000 points! SELL! SELL!" Result: economic recession/depression.
Due to external hacking? Never happened as far as I am aware.Quote:
3) Law Enforcement systems. "I'd like to sell you a list of every American undercover FBI/CIA/DEA/NSA/OCB/NRO/ATF/Secret Service agent in the world and their locations. Result: lots of dead law enforcement agents.
Sensing a pattern? I'll give you a hint...it hasn't happened.Quote:
4) Power Plant systems. All the power goes off in Las Vegas because Hoover Dam has gone offline. The Strip is littered with automobile accidents.
I think the bill was written for the people who would consider this sort of thing.
Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's probable. While were on the topic, would you like some meteorite insurance?
Exagerating fears does nothing but sell TV programs and newspapers. Remember that.
Quote:
Sensing a pattern? I'll give you a hint...it hasn't happened.
Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's probable. While were on the topic, would you like some meteorite insurance?
Exagerating fears does nothing but sell TV programs and newspapers. Remember that.
Hmm... I seem to remember reading something about a few planes flying into buildings a while ago. That hadn't happened before, until it did. Most people before 9/11 would have told you that the very idea wasn't very probable, either. The point is, the US should now start creating contingency plans for such events. I for one am glad that at least Congress is ahead of the game on this one. However, just because massive cyber attacks are now recognized as a form of terrorism, it doesn't mean that the laws will stop someone willing to trade their life for the attack. However, if we happen to catch them before they get the chance, at least we now have the power to deal with them accordingly.
Should it? Should there be a mutli-million dollar contigency plan for every little thing that could happen? The government would be spending all their money on 100 million doses of guatamalan whooping cough vaccine. These attacks are not probable at all, and thus putting a lot of money into this will only be a waste. The media exaggerates these possibilities considerably, and it's rediculous to think that everything is preventable.Quote:
The point is, the US should now start creating contingency plans for such events
Not everything is preventable, but there are such things as "reasonable possibilities". In addition, this particular thread is about a non-specific legislative bill that covers a wide range of computer crime that could fit under the term "terrorism". Would it be better if a crime that satisfied the elements of this bill were to go unpunished completely because there was nothing to address a crime of that magnitude? You can't punish someone for an act that doesn't violate a specific statute. I understand your concern for excessive legislation and the appearance of wasted tax dollars, thesecretfire, but I don't believe that any statute currently exists to satisfy large-scale acts of cyber-terrorism.
Here is the portion of HR5710 that deals with life imprisonment for hacking:
"`(B) if the offender knowingly or recklessly causes or attempts to cause death from conduct in violation of subsection (a)(5)(A)(i), a fine under this title or imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or both.'." ยง225
Life imprisonment is a possibility where death is involved.
I posted this in another thread.
I must side with Secretfire here. This whole subject is hyped. The law is not as bad as it is being made out to be. It has severe restrictions and langauge that opens a number of holes. The whole fear of computer hackers is over hyped because people know so little about it that they can be convinced anything is possible.
As for contingency plans. As long as you add the phrase "reasonable" I would agree. All reasonable contingency plans should be made however using reasonable and congress in the same sentence is rare and it is even rarer that reasonable relates to the congress. My biggest fear though, if the bill becomes a law, is how the courts will interpret it and qualify the extent to which it pertains.
As a staunch conservative I find myself in agreement with the far left in my fear that through our over reaction we are selling out on some very basic liberties. This and the knee jerk reaction whenever some minor report comes in about possible terrorist activity is almost worse than the tragedies terrorism has inflicted on people the world over (to limit our view to 9/11 and to say everything changed on that day is to admit a tragic myopia that if it doesn't happen to America it just doesn't matter).
Actually in no other time in history in the US are personal freedoms under more attack then they are now all under the name of National Security. Me I have and will always have a problem with the "Homeland Security Agency" Name alone says it all if your at home and the govement says you are a security threat you stand no chance. Lets also seperate Hacking from cracking and from the millions of script kiddies, there are millions of them creating such a noise on networks with their caned scanning programs, scripts and sometimes they are a real threat even if they don't understand they are. Take healthcare computer systems many are connected to large Universities and no other leg ouside maybe dot gov or dot mil get scanned and probed so much from script kiddies to the point it becomes diffcult to access real threats to a network, want your healthcare records sold? Should they pay you bet they should. Perhaps if the noise level of millions of lamers that are no more into hacking but are point and click are caught more stupid laws will pass. Until corps delever secure products that they sell to the goverment and they are truly secure they will profit even more and tighten their stangle hold on everyday users. Fact is these laws are wired world version of most of the causes of past world wars, and civil unrest. The US is now doing the same thing as in WWII profiling Middle Eastern families like the did with Japanese Americans, only their are no interment camps this time but "Federal Holding Cells" where even the most basic American rights are denied like facing the accuser and a right to be represented. Is a ver sad and dark day and days ahead for citizens of the US.
I can't believe this. I never knew you could hack in to a computer and endanger the person's life. They should clarify what they mean. I'll bet you no one in congress knows how to send a freakin' email. They probably have to call the secret service to figure out how to send it. The point is this is NO FAIR!!!!! i want a petition...
Palemoon I fail to see the relationship between profiling to focus investigation and the internment of Japanese Americans during WW-II. You may be against profiling and I am sure that you have your reasons, that is not my point. But to draw a relationship between that and the plainly criminal actions the Government took out of fear against Japan Americans after Pearl Harbor is pushing the limit of credibility. As far as I can tell from my reading no Middle Easterners whether citizens, visitors, or carrying Visa's have been retained without cause for undue periods of time. The inconvenience of a few hours is nothing compared to the stealing of land, property, and the incarceration of years. In summation my point is that to draw that comparison is exactly the type of hyperbole that causes people to reject arguments out of hand. Your other points, many of which I agree with 100%, are compromised when you overplay the actual occurences that have happened currently.
The discussion of profiling is a seperate discussion entirely (one I fear we may find ourselves at odds on). However, to fight paranoia and hyperbole with paranoia and hyperbole seems counter productive. I wish a good William Webster or Clay would arise to bring balance and focus to the current situation. On one hand we need to do our best to ensure the safety of our nation. On the other hand we must be careful not to trample our basic freedoms and our relationships with other nations in our rush to accomplish the first goal. It is tragic that thousands died on 9-11, but if their deaths lead to a relinquishing of our freedoms then we invalidate the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands who have died to keep us free. Balance and reason must start to take precedence over hype, fear, and rampant paranoia.
Interesting isn't it. The only people they're ever going to catch, are the script kiddies, or the hackers that bungle about & have no regard for watching their backs. Pretty soon, the jails' will be full of people who have no clue, and the more 'elite' will still be rampaging around, screwing up their networks just to spite them! It's allready happening, quiet hacks going on as we speak, busting through the pathetic defensive mechanisms the gov boxes have in place, and easily exploiting their unpatched servers. Instead of bitching & moaning about how hackers are bad, and how they're going to arrest every single one of them, why don't they actually *do* something about worldwide security. Help implement an update system that *works*. Hilarious. Cowboy attitudes will get the US congress nowhere.