Iraq vs. U.S: Political Game of Chess?

Overview
This is a post that I felt needed because alot of the sentiment's of this on-going process continue to happen, and I'd love to hear people's opinion on this (these?) issues. I've heard many Anti-Iraq opinions and have heard many Anti-American opinions. Well, now I'd like to see a debate and I'd love to see opinions and supported facts from both sides.


America: Post 9/11

Everyone know's that the day after (probably even a few hours after) 9/11, America wanted to go after the one's that were behind it. However, no one would think that this would start ( as Negative put it) the American World Order. Now, to that statement, I have to agree at many points. We have gone from many points ever since 9/11 (we being the American President, and America in general). First, we only wanted to capture and punish those responsible for the attacks. Then, we wanted to go into Afganistan, and get them ourselves, since the government then (the Taliban) wouldn't give Osama Bin Laden, who is believed to be the mastermind behind it, to us. We had a large military campaign, all around the holiday season and what has it come to? As of now, we have no clue whether he is alive, or dead. After "cleaning up Afganistan", we decided to go after other countries that "harbored terrorists". This is something that is judged by the U.S government, and by that only. Something, that shouldn't really be done, because the U.S isn't Judge, Jury, and Executioner. So, President Bush (in arguably the stupidest move he makes) decides to make an 'Axis of Evil', naming North Korea, Iraq, and I believe the last one was Iran (correct me If I'm wrong, the last one slipped my mind). However, Bush has made MANY statements claiming that he believes another 3-5 other countries can harbor terrorists and can be a "potential threat to the U.S". Why does he pick three? My personal opinion is that he wants what he wants, when he wants it, and he isn't stupid either. He knows that every move he makes is in the "court of the world" As I put it. He is in World Opinion right now, and as of now, has even disregarded advice from allies NOT to go to war. So, that leave's us with now.

Gulf War: Part Two

Well, we all know the first round against Iraq, the Persian-Gulf war. Strangely enough, that had President Bush Sr. vs. Saddam Hussein. In that battle, we didn't go after and "eliminate" Saddam, like many say we should. However, I question the reason why we are so into Iraq's actions and the country in general. Annyways, back to today. Bush Jr. (IMHO) WANTS a war with Iraq, no matter how much they cooperate, or no matter how much they don't. Why does he want the war? Some say to "avenge his father". Now, if he was doing this, couldn't he just call out Saddam to a fist fight or something? Why does he take American Military ( now remember, these people can be father's or mothers of some people) and put them in harm's way, telling them to fight Iraq? The second reason many say is for the oil. Again, what kind of sick person put's other's lives to do his bidding when he knows some will die and when he knows that if it was a personal grudge, he could put it to side, like any other decent human being. Wait a second, holy jesus, I think we found something guys. Lemme go over something real quick:

Quote:

---

Again, what kind of sick person put's other's lives to do his bidding when he knows some will die and when he knows that if it was a personal grudge, he could put it to side, like any other decent human being.

---

Hold on a sec, that kind of sounds like.... Osama Bin Laden? Isn't that what Bush think's of him (and probably more too)? Aren't we being a little hypocritical here now George? So, my last question to you all, is Why does Bush want a War with Iraq SO BADLY? Heh, these are just my views. I have many views of this issue, some for America.. Wait, no. Some for BUSH, and some against him. I like America, hell I live here so I should. What I don't like is leader's who accuse other's of doing the same thing they're "enemies" are doing. I think that doing things for one's own gain, yet putting other's at stake is, well, wrong. Anyways, I hope someone can answer the war question for me, honestly. Because lately, I haven't seen much reason to go after Saddam. I mean, he has the same right to have nuke's as we do, right? I mean, the guy isn't stupid, if he somehow launched a nuke, that would be suicide for him, and he knows that.

Anyways, I'll stop, I'm too into politics and whatnot. Please share your views on this issue, I love hearing different side's to these things. I believe it was a member of AO (love this quote) that said " I'm not Anti-American, I'm just Pro-Common Sense." I like that quote alot, lol. Well, I'll be going and letting you guys discuss so I can read some nice opinions. Enjoy!

(Note: I'm not Anti-American, I mean, I live in the damn country. I have view's that are for America as well, I just don't think I want to support going to war with Iraq right now, I don't like war, especially when I don't see a reason. So, I'm actually for America, I just disagree with a few decisions our leader is making.)

OK, I'll bite.

I have differing opinions on the matter. I believe that Sadaam is a force to be dealt with. I'm not sure that he has nuclear weapons, although the American gov't seems to think he does. I do believe that he is a threat to American Security just because he (and many other nations throughout the world) hates the United States. I love the US - just like many US citizens - but can't seem to figure out why we do the things that we do. Maybe that is why there are nations that would like to see America suffer.

The 9/11 tragedy caused many Americans to wake up and see what is going on in the world. Too many people here have tunnel vision. They are only concerned with their lives and have no thoughts about what is going on outside of their "entombed" existance.

Americans have the shortest attention span in the world. The information-overload that we receive everyday in the media is probably the biggest cause, imho. We get bombarded with crisis after crisis and after a while we get numbed with all of the events. The impact of 9/11 - although still on everyone's mind - has less of an affect on the average American than it did on 9/12.

George Bush
Not sure what to think about this guy. At first I thought, "Good, someone is finally going to stick up for us and do something." as appossed to that woose, Clinton. But now I'm not so sure. I'm thinking there is alterior motives - just not sure what they are. I believe that George Sr. only wanted to protect the oil in Kuwait and not the people. Maybe Jr. is just looking out for the same interest. ??

I have the pleasure of working at a world-wide company and have been able to ask several of our non-american folks what the popular opinion is in the various countries. Most of them feel that they need to support the US even though they don't believe that "we" are doing the right thing.

Please excuse the waffling on this topic, but I haven't wrapped my head around the whole issue yet.

I've been through this so many times...I lose count :p. But here are some search results you might find interesting.....


EDIT: Oops here's the link.

It's clear to me that Mr. Bush just wants some more oil. Yes, he wants to start off what his dad finished, no, Saddam isn't a very nice man, so he feels that conquering Iraq will help.

Quite what this has to do with his "War on Terror" is not clear. Bin Laden is not Iraqi and had no significant help from Iraq destroying the World Trade Centre. True, Saddam and Bin Laden have some aims in common but that's where it stops.

As far as weapons of mass distruction are concerned, the US are not concerned with who has them, rather who they're aimed at.

India and Israel have lots each, but theirs are aimed at people who the US doesn't consider so economically important (and Israel is on our side, right?).

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by slarty
It's clear to me that Mr. Bush just wants some more oil. Yes, he wants to start off what his dad finished, no, Saddam isn't a very nice man, so he feels that conquering Iraq will help.

Quite what this has to do with his "War on Terror" is not clear. Bin Laden is not Iraqi and had no significant help from Iraq destroying the World Trade Centre. True, Saddam and Bin Laden have some aims in common but that's where it stops.

As far as weapons of mass distruction are concerned, the US are not concerned with who has them, rather who they're aimed at.

India and Israel have lots each, but theirs are aimed at people who the US doesn't consider so economically important (and Israel is on our side, right?).

---

I'd have to agree in a few instances. Saddam and Bin Laden have no apparant connection, although we can't exactly be 100% sure. However, Bush said that " You're either with us, or against us". So, I guess that make's Iraq against him. The stupid 'Axis of Evil' thing also include's Iraq as well. It's odd how we go from finding those responsible of 9/11 to a full blown war against a few countries he doesn't like and/or think's is against us. They might be, we don't know. However, escalating the situation hasn't helped either. That's JMHO.

I feel that Saddam is an evil man. But the real question is who will suffer in a war. Saddam? I think not. Of course it will be those who have no power. It does seem strang to me that one of the issues we use to defend a war with Iraq is Saddam using chemical weapons against the Kurds. Where was the US when this was going on? Why dod we use it now. Maybe it is because at that time we hated Iran more than Iraq, and Iraq was serving a purpose for us. Just some things I wonder about.
Karen

Ok, this is my first post.
I just figured i would share with everyone something i have found.It's about government connections to 9/11. You have to have Real Player to watch It.

-

Throwing my hat into the arena..

I think that as has already been stated, the motives behind any attack on Iraq are less to do with the war on terror and more to do with Oil. If Iraq is successfully invaded then the US will have control of one of the largest Oil reserves in the world, at a time when the economy is extremely weak (an economy based primarily on Oil) what could be better then to suddenly have control of a large supply which you can then price as you wish?

Also, what happens when Iraq is dealt with? Is it on to North korea? a foe with a far more powerful armed forces then Iraq, and one that possess Nuclear Weapons.

it does seem very much like something of an empire building process is being conducted, in order to ensure US supremacy anyone considered to be a 'threat' is singled out and dealt with accordingly. 9/11 seems to have provided the Government with the reason they need. Dealing with the Taliban was justified I believe as the 9/11 attacks did amount to an act of war, however to use this as the basis for invading other potentially trouble making countries is not the way it should be handled.

Why are these people so against the US? and can this be changed? every empire that has tried to maintain its power through military might has ultimately fallen apart, either due to internal pressures or by stretching itself too thin. 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, true the US is not an empire in the sense of the Romans, Greeks, Mongols, etc.. but it is the only superpower, which is about as modern an equivalent as there can be.


I do not think that killing thousands more will prevent something like this from happening again.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by R0n1n
Throwing my hat into the arena..

I think that as has already been stated, the motives behind any attack on Iraq are less to do with the war on terror and more to do with Oil. If Iraq is successfully invaded then the US will have control of one of the largest Oil reserves in the world, at a time when the economy is extremely weak (an economy based primarily on Oil) what could be better then to suddenly have control of a large supply which you can then price as you wish?

Also, what happens when Iraq is dealt with? Is it on to North korea? a foe with a far more powerful armed forces then Iraq, and one that possess Nuclear Weapons.

it does seem very much like something of an empire building process is being conducted, in order to ensure US supremacy anyone considered to be a 'threat' is singled out and dealt with accordingly. 9/11 seems to have provided the Government with the reason they need. Dealing with the Taliban was justified I believe as the 9/11 attacks did amount to an act of war, however to use this as the basis for invading other potentially trouble making countries is not the way it should be handled.

Why are these people so against the US? and can this be changed? every empire that has tried to maintain its power through military might has ultimately fallen apart, either due to internal pressures or by stretching itself too thin. 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, true the US is not an empire in the sense of the Romans, Greeks, Mongols, etc.. but it is the only superpower, which is about as modern an equivalent as there can be.


I do not think that killing thousands more will prevent something like this from happening again.

---

I've got's to say, this is a great post (IMHO). The U.S need's the oil, but the only reason I question that is, isn't that going against like the whole principle's we were built on? I mean, to invade another country for our own gain, isn't that what were not supposed to do. Wait, hold a minute. Here we go again..

Quote:

---

to invade another country for our own gain

---

Hrmm, kinda sound's like Iraq, around Persian Gulf. Now, this is really getting weird, two things we are doing are the same things are enemies are doing. Hypocritical? Very. This is just another reason why I will continue to disagree with my countries leader and way of direction. We're supposed to be (emphasys on supposed to be) the good country that doesn't invade or do anything for our own good and now we're invading a country for oil, and using a terrorist attack as our reason. Pathetic? Oh hell yeah. I can't exactly quote a post Negative made, but I think it was this, and it really told me something:

Quote:

---

American neo-conservatives see the recent terror-waves as a gift. A gift that will finally allow them to establish the foreign policy they've been wanting to establish since the 90's.

---

I couldn't have put it better myself. Then, the last part, from Ron1n's post.

Quote:

---

3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, true the US is not an empire in the sense of the Romans, Greeks, Mongols, etc.. but it is the only superpower, which is about as modern an equivalent as there can be.

---

Heh, only part I'd probably disagree with. Sure, the U.S isn't an empire, but it isn't the only World Power. I'm sure countries like China, England, and maybe Russia would give it a run for it's money. There are probably more, but these are the most noticable IMHO.

In the gulf war, once iraqi's retreated from Quwait, people were revolving. Heading to Bagdad to overthrow the government.
Sadam put in his elite forces and Amerika agreed Iraq could use helicopters. They had succesfully fullfilled their goal. They had freed the people of Quwait .
Iraq used the elite-forces and the helicopters to stop the revolution.
Was it beacause the revolvers were not the government Amerika wanted to see ?
Anyway, the gulf war ended.
Sadam had knocked the revolvers in the south down with his elite forces.
Next were the kurdish, living in the north of Iraq. The images of a village completly wiped down with some poisenness gas are showing up again as the war threat grows.

[vision src=small, poor village::completly wiped down]
[imagine src=battery of helicopters::p atrolling systematicly]

Get it clear. The man is a threat.
He declared the 911 attack as: 'a gift from heaven' (no exact quote)

The problem remains the oil.

Amerika bombs the country completly down, rendering it bankrupt. The people with power are not comprimised though, they still drive bently's or mercedeses. It just the population that gets hurt.
People who are poor have less choises and are easily blinded by some sort of perfectness. So this is wrong.

Amerika cannot catch bin laden. Maybe he is dead. He still lives on in many heads. Can Amerika change regimes in Iraq ? Can Amerika bring peace in the region ? Reports are coming in about Iran and Noth Korea saying they working on nuclear weapos.
[quote src=unknown]
e=mc^2 :: invention that renders all other inventions obsolete.
[/quote]
[quote src="method man"]
And in the crossfire be the youth, that did not learn to duck when they shoot.
</quote]
[quote src="krs one"]
Educate yourself, make your worldview bigger.
Viusalise (w)health, and put yourself in the picture.
[/qoute]
http://www.hrw.org
http://www.amnesty.org

ps:
Do you follow the milosevic trial ?
Do you care about hunger and aids in africa ?

ps2:
If some form of alien, you know the ones with the three eyes and six fingers, would attack us we would finally become aware that we are all alike. ALL OF OUR **** STINKS.

Sorry about the smiley, i dont know how to get it rid.

Chess? More like Dodge ball. Super Dodge Ball, in fact, remniscent of the old Nintendo Arcade classic. Imagine the US as the hulking, stupid looking bullies, and all these "Axis of Evil" cronies are the little guys running around willy-nilly trying to avoid the incoming missiles. Now imagine that hulking, stupid looking bully always having the ball. Not a pretty picture.

I've been getting more and more upset with this administration's foreign policy. Just look at the headlines:

U.S., U.N. Envoys Say Iraq Document Falls Short
U.S., S.Korea Press N.Korea Over Nuclear Plant
U.S. Urges Early Elections in Venezuela
Iran Was Burying Nuclear Facilities, U.S. Says

For a country that used to lean toward isolationism, we seem to be gaining momentum as flat-out global bullies. Why are we concerning ourselves so much with the events of other nations? Terrorism? There are probably more terrorists already within our borders than we will be able to find abroad.

I have tried to be supportive of US foreign policy for as long as I can remember, but this administration seems to care little about the machine it is putting into motion. Hardening defense (laser-missile-defense program), heavy spending on military equipment and technology, deployment of troops at strategic locations around the world, inciting renewed interest in old enemies (Axis of Evil), a struggling domestic economy...a conspiracy theorist would claim that the US is trying to pick several fights to kick-start the economy! I personally don't think I'd draw that line, but I have to question the US motives for all of this. Does this administration believe that by putting on a good show of force that they will either scare terrorists into submission or at the very least provide the American public with a sense of safety? Both of those motives are bound to fail. You will NEVER scare terrorists into submission, and if they continue to create destruction and havoc the American public will NEVER have a total sense of safety.

Maybe it's just Bush that's bothering me. By using phrases like "Axis of Evil", "we will prevail", and "by his deceptions, and by his cruelties (speaking of Hussein)", Bush has the unmistakable aire of a propagandist. If I could have just a little less rhetoric, and a little more evidence, maybe I would see that our current foreign policy actions are warranted. Until then, however, I'll be keeping a watchful eye on things.

I think it's all about miscommunication. We are only hearing alittle bit of the whole story. Only a couple of people in this world actually understand what is going on. I think it's miscommunication on why people hate(in general).

I believe no one wants to go to war. No one should be saying things that aren't totally true.
What terroists did on 9/11 was very wrong. I think we should have the support to go in and find these individuals anywhere in the world. Any country that doesn't want help finding and getting terroists out of their country has something to hide.

Have to remember war makes great news. we only see what we are really meant to see. It's not fair and it needs to change. Now I was in europe when 9/11 happend and alot of people did mourn. Inside the U.S. it seems like most people don't mourn when a terroist attack happens over seas. All of this really needs to change. We need better communication and we need to respect each other.