Beliefs and Blind Faith

We all believe in something. Everyone does, you do yourself. Most believe in a god or some spiritual being, not all do I know,but even if you don't you are believing in not believing. Funny thought is it not? What is a belief anyway? Do you know? Does anyone? I think there are different stages of belief. For instance the highest is actually knowing something is real. The lowest would be believing in something without actually using your senses or known knowledge in your belief. Take the Christian God for instance, people (myself included) believe in him but we have nevr been able to actually physically grasp him but on a spiritual level we try to. His word is written (the Bible) but remember it was translated from Hebrew to Latin and from Latin to English. Do you think there was room for error? Some information must have been lost in all of this. Do you wonder about that? Let's say some info was lost, our beliefs would have certainly been different if say someone edited out say an eleventh commandment. Am I correct? Does it ever make you wonder? I do believe in him and have faith in his judgement, but do you ever question the thought of him being real? It could all be a big myth or the like. It gives blind faith new meaning. Faith I believe is an add-on to Belief. You must have noticed that believing AND having faith in something carries more weight than just thinking it is true. A good example of this is Santa. As a kid it didn't take a lot to get us to believe in things. We had faith in Santa for him to bring gifts or the like, because on Christmas moring he did. As a result this helps prove that believing and having faith does not make something true. It makes you really question all of reallity.

*This isn't meant to offend anyone, if it does I am truly sorry.*

melakii

intresting questions---simply stated I believe that your beliefs are your own collections of what you consider right and wrong. This does not have to deal with a god or spirituality or anything in particular. I also dont believe that using your senses should necessarily make a belief stronger. The senses are not 100% reliable. Think of optical illusions. They are a proof that are senses are not reliable. Therefore, belief cannot depend on senses.

When we think about belief is something unique to humans. Therefore they should depend on something that is also unique to us. Senses are not unique. Animals and humans use senses. Belief can only be increased or decreased based on the mind. In other words knowledge is the only thing that can increase or decrease beliefs.

In regards to the bible, I believe that there is a lot of room for error. **I dont intend to offend anyone, just respnd to the thread** Can you tell me, why are there so many versions of the bible. Were there different messages being preached? or is there only one method? If there was only one method, then there should be only one version, right? Hmm...Also personally I dont believe Jesus ever preached anything about the Trinity. To this day no one has convinced me that the Trinity can logically make sense.

Only one thing really makes sense. Mankind is limited in his abilities. He cannot run as fast as a cat or sense smell like a dog or lift as much as a bear. If we are so limited in all of our abilities, then we need guidence. So where do we go for guidence??

for a good example of how translations can be colored by those doing the translating just read the "song of solomon" in the king james and the roman catholic versions of the same book which was, i believe, translated from greek. 2 totally different poems

taking into account that word of mouth was the only documentation for the first couple of hundred years for the new testament. And all of the holy books of the time were not included in the bible for whatever reason what we have here is incomplete information of an incredulous nature.

no offense meant here emPtYKnOw

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When we think about belief is something unique to humans.

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but i would really like your source for this information

You ever heard of Paul Bunyan? This is what is called a tall tale. Long ago, during the industrial revolution, people would tell stories around campfires. This was their only entertainment. Stories would spread and become more and more exaggerated. I am sure Paul Bunyan was a real man, who was above average height who did some pretty cool things. Stories started to spread about him, and since a story about an above-average-sized man weren't very entertaining, he was soon 100 ft tall, and had a blue ox named Babe. Well then people started asking questions, like "how did they feed him?" now any storyteller worth his beans would have to know the answer, so they made up this whole elaborate story about making a giant fire, and a giant griddle, and strapping slabs of bacon to their feet and skating around, like on ice. That was 100 years ago, and has never been translated, and is about a man. The bible is 2000 years old, has been translated about 4 times thru VERY different languages (five if you count the NIV) and is about an omnipotent, omniscient being whom we cannot possibly comprehend. and if that doesn't convince you how is this: If you didn’t KNOW about Jesus, what he did, and about god, or heaven, or hell , or sin, would you go to hell? And if so that’s not a very godly thing to do, send an innocent person to hell for something they didn't know. And if not, why are Christians going around telling everyone? They’re SENDING PEOPLE TO HELL! Also consider this: more people have been tortured, maimed, and killed in the name of god than for any other reason in history. If god is so powerful why does he need scare tactics like hell to get believers? And what kind of merciful god would send a primitive being to hell for doing what it is in his nature to do? Lie, cheat, steal, kill, have sex, these are all instincts we are born with, essential to our survival, albeit, no longer necessary due to our societal wellbeing. 2000 years ago no one knew about regenerative fading, so no one thought to ask how an entire species could spawn from 1 or 3 couples. (Adam/eve- Jonah, his sons, their wives) now you ask these questions you get, "god gave them super DNA" or "god fixed this somehow” hmm.. Now tell me how they fed Paul Bunyan again? Ever heard the urban legend that scientists can recreate the sensation of god, spiritual oneness, presence of loved ones, long dark tunnel, and moments of clarity often reported by people who have near-death experiences in a lab, using electromagnetic fields applied to your brain? Pretty crazy one, eh? Well guess what, its true. Dr. Michael A. Persinger, at the University of Ontario, Canada studies the effects of environmental factors on the human brain. Guess what? It takes very little to have a spiritual experience; it could be something as innocuous as an alarm clock or even a wristwatch. You want to know why nearly every society in human history has had a belief system of an all-knowing overseer? It is a brain thing; humans are the only species in history to have a brain advanced enough to foresee their own death. We know we’ll die someday. At the same time, we are psychologically incapable of grasping the sensation that one day we may not be conscious, have memories, feelings, emotions, or awareness of our surroundings. It is for this reason that every human civilization has had a concept of a soul and of life after death. Scientists call this “the gap” the difference between our ability to foresee our deaths, and our unwillingness to accept it. Ever wake up in the morning and not remembered going to sleep? That’s what death is like, minus the waking-up part. Want to know why humans believe in God? Because our ego won’t allow us to see a species as superior to us. Anything we don’t understand, we deify and fear. Over the years humans have deified the stars, the moon, the sun, the other planets, the weather, even animals. Imagine aquarium fish could think, remember, etc. like us. What do you think they would think about us? What do they know, we exist, we bring food, that’s about it, they don’t know what we look like, they can’t see due to the reflection on the inside of the aquarium. They receive sporadic proof of our existence, food from the sky, net swooping down to take away dead loved ones, they must think since we live longer than them that we live forever, know everything, created the universe, etc. Makes you think twice about your thoughts on god.

EDIT: NOAH, not jonah, my bad.

EDIT: to clarify the brain-god connection, here:
http://www.objectivethought.com/images/brainongod.jpg

Tedob1--

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When we think about belief is something unique to humans. but i would really like your source for this information

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If you believe that belief is your collections of what you consider to be right and wrong than it is only unique to humans. Animals cannot judge right from wrong. They dont have the MIND. brain and mind is not the same

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We all believe in something. Everyone does, you do yourself. Most believe in a god or some spiritual being, not all do I know,but even if you don't you are believing in not believing.

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If I don't believe in a spiritual deity, I'm "believing in not believing"? I'd have to say, melakii, that you've just tipped your hand as being a X-ian. You could have said something like, "If you do not believe in a spiritual being, than you believe in nothing" or "nothingness". You chose to say "you are believing in not believing". You could have just as easily said "You are choosing to not acknowledge the painfully obvious truth about our Saviour, Jesus Christ, you godless HEATHEN!" (just kidding!)

Okay...maybe I just tipped my hand about not being a X-ian. :bigsmile:

Beliefs are funny. Some people think they are purely a product of conscious thinking and decision making about the phenomenon of the natural world. If that were true, I'd probably still be inclined to think that tornadoes are the products of some guy with the power to control wind who really hates trailer parks. Obviously, the thoughts of others do have some influence over us. Some born-again X-ian would probably correct a statement like the above by saying, "No, Jesus Christ has the power to control wind and really hates trailer parks." To which I would respond, "Ah...well don't I feel the perfect fool? I didn't know the guy had a name."

Some people think that beliefs come from our upbringing, our environment, and a conscious decision. That may be closer, but if that were the case, why am I still not a X-ian? I was brought up a Methodist, I went to school in the Bible Belt, and most of my friends and relatives were, in some way, X-ian. Why would I consciously make the decision to go against all of that? To make things in my life just a little more difficult by not running with the majority?

I'm under the impression that beliefs, to a great degree, are, in fact, instinct. That's why I think beliefs feel so "right". If your beliefs don't feel "right" for you, perhaps you simply haven't found what your beliefs actually are yet. Maybe you haven't found an example of your beliefs being practiced by someone else, and you're not comfortable enough to create your own system. It should be easy to find your beliefs. Beliefs should naturally make us feel comfortable because they give to us the illusion (or what we think is the reality) that things in this world have an explanation. Whether that explanation is "pure chaos" or "Jesus Christ", the explanation makes sense, and is therefore comfortable to us.

Unfortunately, some beliefs try to validate their covenants by intimidating others into "believing". They have the delusion that power in numbers will make their belief more "real" than all the others. Fortunately for those beliefs, many people haven't spent a great deal of time examining what their beliefs really are, and so the vast majority can sway them easily. I, on the other hand, have spent a great deal of time examining what my belief system is, and even the belief systems of others, and I would highly encourage that of everyone. Examine your belief system. Is it really what you believe, or is it merely a convenient organized belief system that most closely parallels your own? Do you feel that you must place your faith into a belief system with religious labels like "Judaism" or "Islam"? How can anyone put their faith into a belief that they disagree with? If you disagree with any part of your belief system, is it really your belief system? If you are looking for comfort in a belief system, and the belief system you've chosen doesn't make you comfortable, what the hell have you been doing all this time?

i'm going to try not to rant, and keep this simple because i only have a few small points.

originally, "back in the day", when ape like humans were starting to change into humans by developing what we today recognise as higher functions of the brain, in particular reasoning and to an extent logic, the humans that reasoned better than others would have been able to build better tools, solve more difficult problems and had an advantage over other less fortunate beings. however, humans at this stage couldn't survive entirely on their own (and can't really today), they had to form tribes or communites, which had a hierarchial structure of authority. it is believed that at this stage in human development it was necessary to keep everybody in line, so no one would leave the tribe, weakening it so the concept of faith, or the belief system was formed to unify the tribe and to guarantee survival. this ensured that in times of hardship or crisis all beings could put aside any personal feelings, emotions, common sense, whatever and have faith that if they did what they were told by the authorities it would benefit the community as a whole and they would prosper. and it looks like it worked because we are alive today, with many diverse belief systems.

now, the catholic church. When the Roman Empire collapsed before 1000ad due to recurring barbarian invasions, art and learning in Europe almost completely disappeared, terror spread across the Europe because people honestly believed that the world was going to end. then the year 1000 came and went, and the world did not end, everyone rejoiced that they were saved and considerable social change began to take place - kingdoms became larger, more propserous and stable and the Church also underwent change - inparticular the Benedictine order was reorganised and became quite powerful and aquired considerable wealth through donations from pilgrims and gifts of the land. ordinary people around this time would not have been able to read, and as the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words, so the church commissioned many artists to do religious works for them. of course the artists weren't given complete freedom over their works. one of the best examples of what the church were trying to achieve (and did?) is a sculpture, the (bit over the door, or ) tympanum at Autun Cathhedral, "The Last Judgement" by Gislebertus. this depicts Christ enthroned in the center surrounded by four angels, with Saint Peter helping the Saved into Heaven and with Archangel Michael at his left hand weighing souls on a balance. the condemned are thrown below into hell, whith the rest of the naked sinners who are cowering in fear and being tormented by grotesque devils and beasts. to twenty first century eye, this must appear comical, but to the medieval eye, an eye that had never seen a picture or a painting or imagery of ANY kind because it wasn't available, something like this must have litterly put the fear of God into them. this typanum was up over the main door so all who entered had no choice but to look at it. and then they would have to lilsten to a priest rant on about how they will go to hell for eternity if they do anything wrong (the priest decide whats right and wrong) and God is everywhere and He will know if you do anything wrong.........i'm really starting to rant, but you should get the picture. people around these times had more of a reason to have faith, God punnished sinners forever, fullstop/period.

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If you believe that belief is your collections of what you consider to be right and wrong than it is only unique to humans. Animals cannot judge right from wrong. They dont have the MIND. brain and mind is not the same
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according to scripture animals are not subject to right and wrong they do what god intended.

Animal moms teach their offspring what to do and what not to do with punishment and gratification. is this not right and wrong? How do humans learn whats right and wrong. do you believe we are born with a sense of ethics or are we taught this from birth with each of us differing in how we accept and react to these teachings

does not your pet "believe in you". will it not overcome its fears of self preservation to do something you want it to? who says animals are incapable of believing. By this im not referring to a 'god' as we know it, but then again who says they don't.

the church says animals have no soul and scientists say animals don't really feel pain they just react and that they are not aware of their own existance or their mortality.Anyone whos lived with animals can tell you that this is bullshit.

the church also said woman didn't have souls until around 300 years ago and scientists reject the idea of soul compleatly in humans as well as animals.

IMO there is no valid authority on what animals think or feel.

im not trying to change the subject here for all life is central to my belief in religion.

in the movie "Dogma" chris rock plays "the thirteenth apostle". in it. he quotes jesus as saying that he was dissappointed that humans took all his beautiful ideas, and built a belief structure on them. ideas and beliefs are different, ideas can be changed. Beliefs cannot. People die for them. people kill for them.


EDIT: I might add, Dogma was an incredible movie. It ALMOST converted me. seriously. for those of you who have read any of my posts, you know how incredible this is, because I am a VERY strong atheist. Dogma was a very good, well written, thoughtful movie which dealt with alot of my issues with religion... but not all.

Thank you for all of your posts it's been interesting to read on what other people think about some of my ideas. I really appreciate the responses.

melakii

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One of the peculiar sins of the twentieth century which we've developed to a very high level is the sin of credulity. It has been said that when human beings stop believing in God they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse: they believe in anything.

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http://www.memorablequotations.com/muggeridge.htm
:cool:

no two people believe the EXACT same thing.

beliefs are dependent on the person and what experiences they have. What you see around yo uadn feel inside is what makes up your beliefs.

It's nice to come back to AO after being gone a long time and read a post like this. Sure, this site deals with computers, security, encryption, etc...but sometimes, it's a nice change of pace to step outside of the electronic world and delve into issues dealing with the person behind the screen. A lot of people have some good points, now I won't go as far as to say that I agree with everyone's point of view, but then again, I'm not supposed to; where would that leave me in my own quest?

An issue that comes up a lot in the Christian realm is "tolerance." Tolerance, as I have come to know it, is the acceptance of other people's beliefs, whether different from your own, or not. You will find many sides to this argument, but there are those Christians that say that a fellow Christian shouldn't be "too" (keyword there) tolerant of other people's beliefs, going so far as to imply that it would be "ok" for you (the person with the opposing beliefs) to believe in a lie. That can be conctrived to be a very black and white statement by most people. The outside world perceives some, or most Christians, as being "stuck up" or "holier than thou" because of this issue. They see Christians as people who walk around with the attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong." As if to say that "their" way is the only way to Heaven and if you're not on board, watch out, you're in trouble! Am I right?

Maybe. Some people might believe in some of the things I say, but not others and vice versa.

(2 cents)
I am really sick and tired of the legalistic Christians in this world. Debating and discussing and arguing over laws and mandates that we as MAN have created, to go so far as to putting aside your love for other people, just to prove your point. It's not about being right or wrong. It's about LOVE! Throughout history and time, we have been told that Christianity is about love. But, I am sad to say, that has long since been blanketed by pride and personal vendettas to prove yourself right. We are not supposed to be scaring people into accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior. What joy is found in Christ, if you are made to feel as if you don't have a choice; that's what Jesus died for, for us to be given the choice. I am not a smart man, nor do I posess the gift of speech, but one thing that I have learned, is that you need to love people. If you believe something, that's wonderful. If it differs from my belief, I will talk to you about mine, share some truths with you, and if you still choose to believe what you believe, I am going to give you a hug and tell you thank you for talking with me. Who am I to be trying to save you? Who am I to be trying to make a choice for you? I am nobody.
(end of 2 cents)

But of course, this is all just my opinion. And you know what, I am a born-again Christian, 4 years the 19th of January. It's not been a life full of roses and butterflies; it's been the hardest journey I've ever been on, but it's worth it. All I know to do, is love. Not preach, not scare, not drown the world with my opinions...just love. Thank you for listening to my rant and if I offended anyone, I am sorry, and if you do not believe everything I have said....good! I don't want you believing what I believe...choose your own.

Thank you.

melakii,
Could you please elaborate on what you were trying to get across when you said, "Take the Christian God for instance, people (myself included) believe in him but we have nevr been able to actually physically grasp him but on a spiritual level we try to."

The Christian God was manifested in the physical realm with Jesus of Nasareth. He was then given the title, 'Jesus the Christ' (Acts 17:3; 18:5; Matt. 22:42) When you look at the word christ, its simply defined as 'anointed', the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rendered "Messiah". So the faith we have, is in the physical, and by that physical connection, we can be validated as 'pure' or 'forgiven', in the eys of God.

Christian ideolgy states the following. Jesus is the Christ, and the physical testimony of God, and the faith of this constitutes a Christian (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 John 5:1)