Re:Have Your Say On Hackers

[gloworange]Since Tedob1 Decided to ignore me, i would like to post a reply to his thread.[/gloworange]

REPLY POST: HAVE YOUR SAY ON HACKERS

I definately agree with jhgrew, drew, and instronics. There IS a major difference between a hacker and a cracker but the media causes the whole public to believe that a hacker is a bad person that brakes into computers and causes chaos. This is NOT a hacker. By the Jargon dictionary (which most should know and love) a cracker is: "One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). While it is expected that any real hacker will have done some playful cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to have outgrown the desire to do so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to get around some security in order to get some work done). " Which is exactly what the media describes hackers as today. One of my greatest mentors was part of the confrence where the term "Cracker" was formed. I ask you to see the diference between a hacker (one with great knowledge) and a cracker (one who breaks into systems to cause chaos) because there is a difference. A great one. Some people get confused when i say "Hacker" becuase they think a Hacker is a Cracker, so the term "Ethical Hacker" might be better to use. But there still is a difference between a Hacker and a Cracker.
-Spyda

SpydaByte....

Have you read your last posts comments yet??
Here is the link...
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=238933

I am sorry if this thread seems at any way disrespective, i didn't mean for it to be that way. I just meant it to be for the fact that this is one of the greatest problems into today's world, and i would just like to have a say in it, becuase of a misunderstanding in a different thread, i was not allowed to put in my word. Thanks, and I am sorry if this was disrespectful.
-Spyda

You are misunderstanding...I think this thread is a valid example of what you should do in this very situation. On the other hand you need to attend to your last post that is in the wrong forum. I posted in this thread a subtle reminder that you have something else pending that needs attention before making new posts. I am really giving you a chance to do things right in our community, you don't want to get banned so soon I am sure. ;)

uhm, just one lil teeny weeny thing here.......i dont see the need to rename the term "hacker" to "ethical-hacker". Anyone who uses the word hacker should know what a hacker is. Renaming it for people who dont understand the difference is not a solution, in fact its insulting!!

the term means both to me, i just ttry to be more broadining for some other people. Thanks

ahhh, but in reply to Tedop1's post, its not about what you think, its about facts. ;)

I dont mean to be insulting to you nor is this a flame towards you, but its not about you.

Cheers :)

ahh. your right. That was exactly my point. What i should of said was I use the term "ethical-hacker" (being a hacker myself) as a... join word?... so that i could communicate with another being. I'm still asking myself which is which truly, because it is us as humans that make up names for things (God, Chair, Trash) and the media is a big part of that (Ground Zero). It's definately not all about me though.

here here :)
-Spyda

is it me or did spydabyte just admit being a hacker?? i dont think that is the right thing to say around here. whether it is a "good" hacker that improves security or a "bad" hacker that degrades security. theyre the same thing. they break security protocols which are there to protect privacy ect. hacking to me is the same thing as breaking the law. either way you have to be punished

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is it me or did spydabyte just admit being a hacker?? i dont think that is the right thing to say around here. whether it is a "good" hacker that improves security or a "bad" hacker that degrades security. theyre the same thing. they break security protocols which are there to protect privacy ect. hacking to me is the same thing as breaking the law. either way you have to be punished

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I strongly disagree with you on that Trust_Not_123. I have been a hacker since the early '80s and proud of it. It was people like myself who have made this conversation a reality. When I first got into computers and programming/hardware development, the internet was just a far off dream. I could go on for days on this suject, and we also may be experiencing a bit of a cultural gap in the meanings as well ;)

that is the exact topic about this post. The difference between a good and a bad hacker. AND the term "hacker". A hacker is simpliy someone with the knowledge to do those things, but is also the type of people that DONT do those things. THINGS = causing chaos and damage. As the whole point is they are not bad. I will post again but i got 2 go.
-Spyda

(I wrote this b4 ure post aeallison, but it didn't send)

I also strongly agree with aeallison and could go on for days if not weeks on this subject. but i have 2 goto class now. L8r
-Spyda

(I will post again later)

Ah, I honestly don't know what to say to this. Being someone who grew up in the 90's, the media does shape the mind of the people who watch it. Yes, I would agree to the fact that when the word "hacker" comes up in a conversation people go quiet. I know the definitions of hacker and cracker, and yes I agree they are two totally different words with two different meanings behind them.

I'm 20 now, and even here I would be deathly afraid to say that I'm a hacker, because I would think people would get the wrong impression and think that I'm just out to cause damage. About the only systems I try to crack into anymore are my own, just to see where the security holes are at. But back to what I was saying, the media has made me afraid to call myself anything besides a "computer nerd" for the fact that I don't want to be labeled as someone who is out to corrupt and destroy computer systems and files.

What I think needs to be done, is more of an education for people. WE are among the technology age, we need to get out of being so general with everything (not calling plugs "thingy ma whats that pluggy"), and educate the little kids growing up that there are good "hackers" and bad "crackers". That way people in the IT department could be happy to call themselves hackers (or elite hackers) and not have the rest of their office members be scared of them.

If that makes sense? But I think this is a good question, and a very good post to have a discussion about!

Cool deal Spyda...cya in the forums.

:hello: :deal: :blast:

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What I think needs to be done, is more of an education for people. WE are among the technology age, we need to get out of being so general with everything (not calling plugs "thingy ma whats that pluggy"), and educate the little kids growing up that there are good "hackers" and bad "crackers". That way people in the IT department could be happy to call themselves hackers (or elite hackers) and not have the rest of their office members be scared of them.

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Education is the key, and AO is a very good way to learn them thar non-savvy newbies the basics and more... ( excuse my Ozark drawl...LOL )

Excelent! Great! Terrific! AciDriveHB! That is it!
[quote]What I think needs to be done, is more of an education for people. WE are among the technology age, we need to get out of being so general with everything (not calling plugs "thingy ma whats that pluggy"), and educate the little kids growing up that there are good "hackers" and bad "crackers". That way people in the IT department could be happy to call themselves hackers (or elite hackers) and not have the rest of their office members be scared of them.[\quote]
That is great..... It makes total sense, in fact my mom (and also a good mentor of computers) is in the IT field and is trying to do that exact thing. She has taught me that exact way and I really appreciate it now. Education is the key. We do need to educate everyone and need to change the way the media looks at things. Something that the 99 confrence was all about but it never worked (99 or 98? o well)... i g2g 2 class again so i will continue... hasnt even been a day yet ;-)

L8r,
-Spyda

Ok, we agree then that education is the key. I'm glad that I'm getting some good feedback on my last post! Question I guess is how do we educate an entire population of people about the true meanings of the words they just spit out and think they know the meaning?

::hide-beh

With the media the big influence, and movies/books like "Hackers", and "Hackers - Operation Takedown", how do we conteract those views? Especially us who are already labeled as "hackers"? :cool:

You gotta fight fire with fire, use the media, pass it around to all of your friends and family, your peers and any way possible, if you are a student then place articles in your school newsletters. If you are employed by a company/corporation then pass it around in the lunchroom and newsletters. If we all here at AO want a thing like this to happen, it WILL happen we have the power if we all work together, we span the world now, use this to our advantage.

hey that's true. And not that I like fwd emails, but maybe someone can start an email that just states the facts about hackers and crackers. I know those things seem to fly really fast around the Internet.

There should be enough of us here to get things rolling I guess. "You can't save them all", but at least we could change those vies of the direct people around us, and use it as a worm to counteract all bad that is out there.

Woah! I am not suggesting a revolution, or spamming of any sort, just pass on the words...eegads d00d you make what I said sound like what the uninformed public is afraid of, "hackers of the world unite" I may have to withdraw my statement...LOL

LOL. well.... you guys are right, maybe we can't do a revolution but piece by piece we can do this. The public is afraid of

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"hackers of the world unite"

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. But the next step is quietly take it out for now, but its extremely hard because we are already labeled as hackers. My school (which is very computer oriented) knows the term Hacker as it is, atleast my group of friends, because most of them r themselves. But, its hard still to get adults who dont trust kids or don't even think we can fix a computer at all..... I g2g again so post later!
-Spyda

LOL, NO I am not saying do like a spam or anything. :D But I'm starting an email to pass around to friends and family. I know some of them love to forward anything they get to anyone they know. So it will spread itself around the Internet, those who care will read, those who don't will delete it. But SpydaByte got what I meant, piece by piece.

It's a revolution in a new way, not direct and all over the media, but one person at a time who has the right to say "this is true, this is right, I need to share this with my friends/family/co-workers"... or the right to say "this is commey BS" (I don't think I got the spelling on that).

Like what was said before, we need to change the wrong impression everyone in the general public has about how "hackers are bad, hackers are evil, I can't be around anyone who is a hacker". And let them know that "hey I know a lot of white hat hackers, who without them I might not have the security to send email or play online". To let them know the difference between hackers and crackers, to let them understand the labels more and to not assign the wrong one to a good person.

[gloworange]As a fellow co-worker said while we were on this subject today[/gloworange]: Not all (hackers) are bad, not all should be given the same label. The realm of the computer world should not have general terms of “hackers” and “newbie’s”. There are many levels and maybe types. In this new generation it might be better to learn that a hacker can be your friend, and should not be feared as an enemy. People should know, the kids of today need to grow up and learn the real definitions behind these terms, and not what is defined by media.

I find that the best education and spreading of information on this subject comes from mouth to ear in the school or work place. I have educated many people on this subject because they question my terminology. Also on other web boards that you may be a member of, just talking with random people on mIRC, etcetera.

The use of media (in all forms: radio, TV, billboards, planes flying with banners trailing behind them, etc :D ) will be difficult because we do not have easy access to these things. The best way is threw web sites such as AO and threw the methods that I have just mentioned.

Also we do NOT want to get into spam and email/letter chains. This is just an annoyance that many of us fight on a day to day basis. We are all "neocitizens" (I tend to dislike that word, but it works well in this context) and therefore we general dispise the use of spam and the forwarding of large emails (chains). So We should avoid this at all costs.

-Midridth

Exactly. I know a lot of white hat, most gray hat, and actually some black hats who have downed their work while I "interact" with them. And don't get me wrong, a black hat is someone who does the same thing but not totally legally (breaking into a system, not touching anything and sends how they got in and how 2 fix it to the sys admin). A gray hat, is someone that does that for free but with permission of the admin, and a white hat, i believe, is someone for the Gov or for that sys admin that does it and blocks others from doing it. I BELIEVE that is it, but dont quote me please, because as i have said.... no IMPLIED.... before, some words mean slightly different things to different people. Just like the label "newbie" is supposivly a bad thing. It's not, actually i believe noobs have the best potential, but they also have the worst, which ever way the people guiding them (mentors) decide to turn them. I probably would be a black hat now if 1 of my mentors didn't explain it to me this way:

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If you broke into my house to blow out a candle, that has the POTENTIAL to burn down my house, your action would be against the law BECAUSE for the little fact that you are breaking into my house.

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These words changed me forever, b/c i reliezd it was true. Even though your intentions are good, you should only do the black hack if: you know the admin, and they know you and your attentions. just those 2 facts make you a gray hat. 2 little facts from being bad-good. Its not that hard, just 2 get your name out. But off my life, we do need 2 change the media, slowly but if you slowly change it you have more time to perfect the ones that you change, a simple email chain would do, but with more people the faster are better we can do. Thats what forum's are for! I appreciate your feedback! Thanks for your input and understanding. I totally forgot about the "hat" terms. Thanks for helping me explain myself better.
-Spyda

Yeah for sure Spyda, I think this is a perfect topic to have brought up. In a time of a few hours, how many different people have responded with how many views and things to add.

On another slightly different subject though, does anyone know how to get a hold of, or where to get a hold of, an actual list of the full list of "hacker ethic's"? After talking about all the black and white, good and bad, I'm interested in if these codes exsist and what they actually say. :deal:

I think I need to learn more too to help educate others, I want to make sure I have all the facts and know more than what I do before I try to explain it to others. ::lurking:

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We are all "neocitizens" (I tend to dislike that word, but it works well in this context) and therefore we general dispise the use of spam and the forwarding of large emails (chains). So We should avoid this at all costs.

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this is somewhat true, but also a little bit false, for kids my age, email chains are the new fad (and have been for the last 2-3 years) so for my age group, this would be good, but it kind of discourages some people, as in 25-40? i dont know b/c im not in this group yet. but all kinds of media are the way to go, we need 2 start a source, with nothing holding it back, AO can't be in this b/c i dont trust it all the way, almost 50% or more of its files hosted have trojans on them, but this is a good way for the "Neocitizens" (i dont like it either, but it DOES fit well) to communicate on. I like the plane idea.... I could do that at myrtle beach but i think most people would take it as a joke. LMAO. anyways, yea its a good topic and we should seriously think about that. Maybe a website would do :-). I g2g again. L8r
-Spyda

From the sound of it I'm in the same age group as you are, I'm 15 and a freshmen in highschool.

The idea of the website is an interesting idea. A web site totaly devoted to educating the masses on cyber culture? I know of pages that have sections on this topic and that people have written papers, but I think that a source of this type ran by the people who live and breathe this culture would be awsome. A serious idea that we should float around.

For not trusting AO....I'm not really sure what to say. True essentialy all of the information on AO could be used in a malicious manner but does that mean that they are not to be trusted? For example a car can kill you, but does that mean that we don't use them? Just a thought.

What can we do for now? Well deffinatly keep on talking about this subject until it dies, "free speach and all that" ((c) "The Last Castle") and continue to educate our peers in our schools and work places. Maybe put something in the school newspaper? My school has the FirstClass program for everyone and it provides multiple forums for people to post anouncments and a discussion place. If you have something like this, make a post on it?

While this is about as much as we can, or maybe want, to do at the moment until we either consider this subject more, we should also consider if we think it's worth pooring a lot of effort into. When I say this I refer to the possability that we could focus our efforts on other such topics that mean more. True it is HIGHLY annoying when someone uses the hacker vs cracker terminology incorrectly, but does it really matter that much? Maybe people will percieve you differantly, but that happens all the time on and off the web. Other matters that we might want to put any effort into changing, if we were to, could be open source, freedom of speach online, etcetera.

Just some thoughts. :)

-Midridth

Im AROUND that age. Anyways, yes your right, we should really get that idea to float around, if not happen. I got a bunch of tools at my disposal to make such a thing, never a problem, but could we get enough people to make it reality? Surely i would not trust 1 person and their private homepage.
Ok, as for NOT trusting AO, i didn't mean it that way, but rather i meant it as that the people that post the files, i would think that some of them, if not a lot, are using this info and the AO site to get new targets (hench my research of downloading .1%-1% of the files in each folder and checking them for virii / trojans hidden) but i DO trust this site, and a lot of the people on them. My origonal comment was, in fact, just a thought.

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What can we do for now? Well deffinatly keep on talking about this subject until it dies, "free speach and all that" ((c) "The Last Castle") and continue to educate our peers in our schools and work places.

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Here here.

I also use FC with a bunch of different servers, I could get out the word of what we are trying to do to about 10 different countries in about 5 mins. Yes tech today.

you are right, we should just let this topic float for now, shouldn't really consider it more yet though. People will think of us differently, but one of my thoughts is that it could open up all the more oppertunities to us, having a good label in the "hacking" community (some times refered to as the "underground", if that label could help you to get a job? hrmmm.... that would be great! B/c these labels are for real, hard to pick out, but are the real thing. But your right though, it wouldn't really matter what you are on the web b/c you can be anything you want, for all you know i could be a pregnet austrailian mother routed through an aol connection in NY NY, and i could change so much info to make Bill Gates believe it. Just a thought ;-). Its the end of my day, so i have to move to a different building, but i will keep posting, developing and spreading the word of this topic :-). I encourage everyone to do the same.
Yes i believe in the right to free software, speech, etc....
It's the new fad. LOL.
-Spyda

Would anyone like to make a whole community for a website? This is sort of one, but spread the word about a plassable one, and watch to see the reactions. :-) This could be good and a great possibility. If you have any input please post it! Thanks. Also if you have any input on what ARE hackers, (to you) please post them. If you have any experiance with the media and issues that the media wake out of the world just to get more readers? LOL. Its definately true. Thanks

I just have to say, that if you have anything to say to Tedob1 about maybe not ignoring you, a private message would be best. Now you're on the verge of getting banned. I guess some lessons are meant to be learned the hard way.


Regards,
Silentstalker

Ok, For my first post (i think these posts deserve to be seperated b/c of totally different topics)
this is it:

I am very sorry AciDriveHB, i did not see one of your posts b/c i wrote mine at the same time:
AciDriveHB writes:

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On another slightly different subject though, does anyone know how to get a hold of, or where to get a hold of, an actual list of the full list of "hacker ethic's"? After talking about all the black and white, good and bad, I'm interested in if these codes exsist and what they actually say.

I think I need to learn more too to help educate others, I want to make sure I have all the facts and know more than what I do before I try to explain it to others.

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There is a jargon file, which is located here , and is one of the greatest sources for this kind of info. (This is not the origonal post of this file, i dont know where the origonal is....) I really appreciate the fact that you are going to try to learn more before saying things that you are not totally sure about. This is a very good way of approaching things and I extremely thank you for trying. :) not many people do. As for "Codes" there is no real "codes" that anyone should follow. MIT is a very realiable source even though i have not used their site in awhile. They are very reliable for people to get strait quotes from (being one of the main uni's that pro "hackers" are from). There are some good ones out there, but also some very biased ones (aka the media). Thanks, and im sorry for missing this post in the first place!
-Spyda

I think the Jargon Dictionary summed up the difference quite nicely. ::Grins:: The difference is clear...(clearsil) and I think that Spyda's right, the Media has blurred the difference to society so much so that most hacker's can't identify themselves without persecution.

Thanks ^Mobius^! Thank you very much! (Thats true praise, not sarcasm)
The media has very much so done that. Spread the word, peace by peace :). Keep posting new ideas on how to spread it! Thanks
-Spyda

Post 2:
silentstalker:

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I just have to say, that if you have anything to say to Tedob1 about maybe not ignoring you, a private message would be best. Now you're on the verge of getting banned. I guess some lessons are meant to be learned the hard way.

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If this is how you feel i can't stop you. Why didn't you just send me a pm instead of posting it though? I will talk to someone when i feel like it (not trying to be rebellious, but i want 2 give it sometime) and I will talk to Tedob1 when i am ready. I will definetly send him a PM when i have some time. Im not trying to be rude, but im still wondering why he banned me so quickly when i made a simple revirsable mistake? I will ask him that, and if he is reading please respond, but in due time. Again i am not trying to be rude, and "say" this in a strait tone. Thanks for understanding.
-Spyda