i do. i had my wonderful post deleted "summary of germany's history" because the new mangament is prolly german and can't take the truth like they take the shaft.......
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i do. i had my wonderful post deleted "summary of germany's history" because the new mangament is prolly german and can't take the truth like they take the shaft.......
i dont think thats the case. they probably dont want potential advertisers scared off by it. but if german bashing is off limits then american bashing should be too.
actually, i think that the new managment likes the U.N. shaft
I love how selective the new mgmt. seems to be in censoring the content of this site. Hatred of America is okee dokee by their standards but make so much as an observation about history and you'll face censorship. So much for building a trusting relationship with the senior members.:flip:
haha, ze Germans appear to be afraid of free speech.
the Germans are the most ungrateful bunch of punks on earth. Reagan helps them tear down the Berlin wall and evict the USSR, and they repay us by stabbing us in the back. France is their new friend. long live the Franco-Prussian Empire!
punks.
While I'm sure there are many people on here who wouldn't appreciate such a thread, I don't personally believe that it should have been deleted.Quote:
i do. i had my wonderful post deleted "summary of germany's history" because the new mangament is prolly german and can't take the truth like they take the shaft.......
I think this sums it up perfectly. Sure, delete a thread if it's completely abusive or vulgar, but threads shouldn't be deleted simply because of the subject matter, or because they present opinions which clash with those of management. JMHOQuote:
I love how selective the new mgmt. seems to be in censoring the content of this site. Hatred of America is okee dokee by their standards but make so much as an observation about history and you'll face censorship. So much for building a trusting relationship with the senior members.
and so the molding of a new site begins......
Quote:
Originally posted here by rollin5150
i do. i had my wonderful post deleted "summary of germany's history" because the new mangament is prolly german and can't take the truth like they take the shaft.......
I would just like to see this "Wonderfull Summary of German History". Surely it was incomplete, biased, and just a little offending at best. No offence, but without leaving many, many sources to back your 'so called facts', (that arent common knowledge) your "Wonderfull Post" may be assumed as a copy and paste, if its too detail, or just an attempt to lay off your anti german rhetoric, on people who dont really wanna talk about German history anyway. At the same time, I dont really belive in Censorship per say, but I do belive in moderating the dumbasses'. However, I belive the Antipoint System that JP and his crew designed is a good way moderating these threads. If your making dumbass post, the AP system will get you in the end. But your thread got deleted. I would like to see it, PM it to me. I wanna see what our moderators find so "Offencive" or what ever. Do a little Profiling of our own, ya know.
Hmmm... if I'm correct, the 'fascists' stopped Hitler during WW II, preventing Hitler's troops to take Gibraltar...
I personally believe that if this site is dedicated to learning about and discussing network security, then I see no reason to strip out valuable learning material. One step further, I don't think an opinion should be removed just because someone else disagrees. That's the idea of a forum, different ideas are discussed, not censored.
I posted a thread on rootkits. I referenced a site that gave source code and binaries. Speaking from years of experience, testing rootkits (or any hardware/software) in a lab envirmonment will provide you with tons of knowledge and understanding. What's the old saying in this field, you learn more by doing than by reading?
If this very basic concept is frowned upon by the new owners, it may be time to either attempt to make them see the light or move on to a site that does understand this. Don't get me wrong, I love this resource but if it becomes poisoned what good is it to any of us?
Anyway, let me step off my soapbox :)
For those wondering the post removed contained the following ditty: http://www.bfnation.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7597
Rather than assume they did it for censorship has it occurred to anyone that perhaps the post was removed due to the fact that this is probably spam and/or a copyright issue?
:confused:Quote:
For those wondering the post removed contained the following ditty: http://www.bfnation.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7597
Rather than assume they did it for censorship has it occurred to anyone that perhaps the post was removed due to the fact that this is probably spam and/or a copyright issue?
Maybe I don't understand, but a copyright issue? I don't see how a post like that could attract attention as far as copyright is concerned. And how could it qualify as spam? At best it's merely a joke post. It's not selling a product, or for that matter doing anything that one would normally associate with spam.
While the content of the post is pretty stupid, that doesn't necessarily mean it should have been deleted. Moderating should be limited to outright spam, or vulgar/racist/bigoted content and the like. If someone wants to post something like this, it shouldn't be deleted. Again, JMHO
<edit>
This is far more worrisome than a joke post being deleted. Source code which proves a concept relating to security is vitally important and links to such content should not be removed. Maybe this is a result of having moderators who aren't overly knowledgeable about computer security?Quote:
This is exactly how the rootkit works that I discussed in the original thread I started on this subject (before the link to the actual source code and binaries was stripped out by a moderator). It hooks port 80 on any W32 machine running IIS 4 or 5 and waits for packets from the client - nasty business.
Hopefully the new management will realise that people don't like what's been happening.
wheres celfie im sure he would love this disscustion
cencorship on the internet :( /me scoffs
if it wasnt for the internet 90% of geeks would never see a womens **** or know that they actually exist look at bash.org for prime examples i my self have not been out side scince the great depression
the thread makes sense alot of it is historicly correct so why the deletion....
just a point of interest both france and germany have helped iraq at some point i think france gave iraq a few of its mass destruction launchers and a high grade nuclear reactor
and germany gave it plans or mabey even the weapons ie nukes :)
just a point i found on my random crawls through the web while getting drunk
back to my point down with cencership however i dont think attacking the new owners is a good idea
as they are the ones with the big red banning buttons :)
thanks for listening
rioter
I was the Moderator who deleted the thread and I wasn't being "selective" when I deleted it. If my action seemed selective it is only because I obviously can't read all the posts. I deleted that particular thread when I came across it because of its offensive anti-German content and I would have done the same if it were anti-American, anti-French or Anti-Fill-In-The-Nationality.Quote:
Originally posted here by KorpDeath
I love how selective the new mgmt. seems to be in censoring the content of this site. Hatred of America is okee dokee by their standards but make so much as an observation about history and you'll face censorship. So much for building a trusting relationship with the senior members.:flip:
Now I could be mistaken.. but if I remember correctly the idea of APs is so that this board can be self-moderated. Up until this point I was pretty sure that we had done a pretty decent job of moderating ourselves and eliminating what doesn't belong.
What I basically just got out of your post StreetRunner is that the reason for the APs is now being shot out the window... that you are now going to moderate our content as you see fit instead of the board being self-moderate... That means a pretty big change... I have no problem with the new management, if stuff stays the same way.. but if you are going to make a change such as Moderating the boards instead of allowing them to be self-moderated, I do believe you should tell us upfront about it.
Hmm...I agree with HTRegz in that an up front explanation of the new "moderating" practices(maybe make it a sticky or something) would be nice. This board usually does a pretty good job of moderating itself. However, I think (and I could be wrong) that this sudden "censorship" is making us (well me, anyway) feel like a bunch a little kids being told what we can and cannot say. Freedom of speech is a pretty big deal. Most of the people here know how to handle being "offended". If you could be straight with us then at least we would know where we stand.
lol, i wear negs from cowards like this as a badge of honor. some people just don't like people speaking their minds. it frightens them.
keep them coming, nameless wimps. why take someone on head-on when you can back-door them?
blah who cares you all choose to come here. you cant bitch at who paid money for this, to not agree with everything you say.
I think the management should heed the advice than NUMEROUS members suggested... leave some unmoderated forums, but take them off the home page. Put the potentially offensive topics elsewhere on the site with a disclaimer "this is not the opinion of the mangement yadda yadda." Then you can CENSOR THE SECURITY FORUMS ONLY.
I'm suprised the non-security forums haven't been taken off the main page already, considering there were so many people that supported that idea and the anticipated effect that it would create... a more security focused look and feel.
I will ask the new owners to post an explanation but it may be a while because things are still being worked out. I assume that eventially this site will have an Acceptable Use Policy similar to other Jupitermedia sites and that that AUP will contain the following:Quote:
Originally posted here by mathgirl32
Hmm...I agree with HTRegz in that an up front explanation of the new "moderating" practices(maybe make it a sticky or something) would be nice.... If you could be straight with us then at least we would know where we stand.
As for being straight with you, I always try to do that. On other forums that have a "Recycle Bin" I have "undeleted" posts after reasonable objections were posted, but this site does not have that feature yet. I will work with anyone who responds to any of my actions in a reasonable fashion or who posts reasonable objections.Quote:
You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harrass, threaten, nor attack anyone.
You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.
I can "bitch" all I like and they can ban me all they want, that's called perogative. Maybe I care. Maybe I've put in allot of work here. Maybe I'm proud to have helped people here, because they appreciate it.Quote:
Originally posted here by er0k
blah who cares you all choose to come here. you cant bitch at who paid money for this, to not agree with everything you say.
Does it matter that I don't pay money for this? No. Is it my choice to come here, absolutely, for a good reason.
P.S. Without it's members a community is nothing. I'm not surprised by many of you not standing up for what's right, but, the hell if I'm not going to.
Streetrunner, you're right you're not omnipotent, but those other threads were on the main page for days and days, you were being selective and you were wrong.
KorpDeath >> sorry but your wrong.
you come here for free. You choose to come here. You cant tell them to do stuff and expect them to listen. Its not yours. You choose this place, you meet their standards, and btw i wasnt talking to you. You didnt instigate this. But ok ..
i'm with you KorpDeath, but i'm going one step further because i don't have as much invested here. i'm boycotting this site. feel free to ban me if you like.
adios.
Simple question here StreetRunner. Why not notify the member and give them a chance to edit their post before you just delete it? While AO is primarily a security site, we do talk politics every once in a while. Out of respect for individual members opinions, they really ought to be given a chance to correct offensive posts.
I also have to confess that it makes me a bit uncomfortable to know that our posts are judged by a SINGULAR point of view now, and we are being asked to play by rules that none of us know.
I hope you have plenty of time on your hands if you intend to delete any thread that makes defamatory statements about any certain nation...as of late there have been a lot of them.
That being said, I will agree with the notion that there should be a level of decency that all posts should be held to and that profanity should not be allowed. However in my judgment (like it will really matter to even point this out) Jupiter Media should consider using some of the elder members (and I don't include myself in this group) to assist in the moderation of the forums instead of bringing in a bunch of (corporate) strangers who have little or no knowledge of this community or how it functions as a whole. I honestly feel that using this type of tactic will make the transition period go much more smoothly. Just my .02 worth.
Some of the "elder" members are moderators. And I have deleted a few threads that were inappropriate or downright degrading. And I had contemplated deleting the one the Rollin had posted but not for the same reasons that StreetRunner had. I believe -- and still have this feeling -- that the thread is from a chain-letter spam thingy. That's what I was referring to when I said spam previously.
Now, I've been watching this thread and have been wondering a few things. First, we all seem quite willing to jump all over Jupitermedia when we think something is wrong or we don't like what is happening. I'll admit that I've done it (albeit a little more privately with one of the managers). But after reviewing it, I wonder if we are jumping the gun. This situation could have been handled differently. A post like "who hates the new fascist mangament" [sic] strikes me as the work of a troll, someone who wants to start an argument rather than come to a resolution or understanding. It is inciteful in nature. Why not ask simple but straightfoward questions:
1. Will there still be an allowance of the community to have discussions about issues other than Security? I've actually started a discussion with one of the managers about keeping Cosmos (but removing it from the front page): My reasoning? Because security administrators and others need to be aware of political events. Cyber terrorism and other acts of terror can affect us. It is foolish to think otherwise as well as to think they won't happen. In addition, changes by various governments affect how we do our jobs.
Have I gotten an answer to this? Not yet. Why? I think and believe (but don't officially know) because the priority has been on the code of the site and getting things organized as well as figuring things out and dealing with the server. If you think this site is an easy chore, go build your own. It may sound harsh but I think you might reconsider the impatience. This site seems to have some real uniqueness to it and has been modified far beyond the template. My understanding is there is some underlying code that is old and some that has errors or issues in it.
2. Will there be an allowance of the community? I believe so but the community comes from the membership. I'm like most people: I hate change. It bugs the crap out of me. But no matter how much I bitch, change will occur. Now, I can sit and bitch about it endlessly or I can learn to bend a bit with the change. Sometimes change is good. I was petrified about being an instructor, figuring I'd be the worst. But the company I worked at encouraged and threw me into a teaching position. It was part of change. Would I go back? Are you nuts?! I love it. I found out that as scary as change is, sometimes it has a nice silver lining. We just have to give it a bit of time.
3. Lastly, it's more of a statement I've seen. Screw you all! I'm leaving!. I call this the toy-box attitude. And you know what? I've yet to find any site that has the community of people that make up AO as it is, regardless of management. This is one of the few community sites that is oriented towards security and understanding the other side. I can't promise anything but I will fight to keep some of those things here. I believe in them and that's why I became part of the community. Go ahead. Leave but I think you are missing out on so much potential before it happens.
I hope that some consider this. It is solely my faulty point of view but there you have it. Do consider it.
Now, that said I do want to bring up one more point. Godwin's law might apply to this thread. :D
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=240969
Before I start, I should let you know that I'm not advocating deleting the above thread, but if you blindly follow the principle you mentioned above, then the 'I hate crackers' thread should be removed due to its potentially abusive nature. If you go read the thread, you'll find that it's just a harmless play on words, but if I were having a bad day, I could choose to interpret that post as racist and offensive. Where do you draw the line? As is stands now, the AP system keeps the poster in line and would punish him/her if the community as a whole found it offensive. The more you rely on moderators for the site, the more often you'll have to make judgement calls on threads like this. I know you can't please all the people all the time, but every time you yank a thread that was a borderline issue, you'll face argumentative threads like this one. While I don't agree with the title of this (facist) thread or some of the nastiness that's resulted, I think a lot of this could have been avoided if rollin5150's post had been left in place and you let the community as a whole decide whether we found his post offensive.
Thanks for pointing it out. I've sent him a note asking him to edit the post. I found it offensive even if it is a joke.
Edited portion: Followup. I informed stuFFit that I found the post offensive and his reply was that it was funny. He edited the post by adding a line stating that he's white. IMHO, this doesn't change the fact that the post is offensive.
Now, if I delete the post, I'm apparently committing censorship. And yet, I've been polite about it. I have to draw the line. I've asked him again. I suspect that there will be a rash of posts from various new accounts that will be attempts to force the issue about moderation. I don't know about other moderators but some things I will draw the line at. Blantant offensive material I will delete. I will ask first but if it isn't changed, I will have no other choice.
I've been sitting here thinking about this (as I have no life and nothing better to do on a saturday afternoon) and i'm wondering.. Would this have gone has far if MsMittens or Negative had deleted the post, or if JP was around and he had deleted it? MsMittens said herself she contemplated deleting the post, would we have given her a hard time about it? or are we just looking for more reasons to dislike the new management because we fear the change. We've voiced our opinions, and I think StreetRunner as done his best to respond to our opinions. Change is coming whether we like it or not, like MsMittens said, so we'd might as well accept it.
I'd like to be notified of the changes and know what's going on, and StreetRunner said he'd pass that on to management. There's not much else we can ask for, all we can do now is wait. I think we all need to sit back and cool down a bit before tempers start to run rampant on these boards. This thread IMHO is one that needs to be closed and removed from the main page.... not deleted, but moved. Otherwise it's just going to keep going and I think right now we should just be forgetting about this and moving on with the future.
MsMittens, I wasn't trying to cause you more grief. I was simply trying to point out that there's a large gray area between what's offensive and what isn't, and when posts fall into that gray area, maybe it's best to let the community make the decision. I'm sorry if all I managed to do was add to the confusion.
AAAaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgh!!! Foiled Again!!
I don't think MsMittens intended to imply that you caused her more grief... she's just trying to show some of the difficulties that arise with censorship. Maybe if some of the membership saw what kind of dilemmas the moderators face, then they can accept the fact that some borderline posts are pulled and some are not. No matter how black and white an AUP may make it, I guarantee someone will come up with a post in a gray area, and the moderators will have to make a tough call. Let's let them do their job and see how it goes. It'll take a little time to adjust, but I, for one, have high hopes.
No. You didn't cause me grief. You bring up good points and that's why I don't mind the discussion, when it's a discussion and not just a rant. Unfortunately, even though I've asked a second time of stuFFit to edit the post he's refused. I have deleted the post. Maybe I was wrong to do so but I did find it offensive. In this case, I don't think it's a grey area.
I think once the AUP is in place, this kind of discussion will be moot.
I also believe that we have to realize that people from all walks of life come here, from a variety of backgrounds. Making remarks about someone just because they are german, white, black, arab, jewish, etc., IMHO, have no place here. Will some posts be harder to judge? Certainly. I would, for one, like to see a moderator's only forum where we can discuss questionable posts (I find that PMs are limiting) as well as having the ability to move threads off the front of the site.
It's not too appealling to new users to read posts on how horrible "so-and-so" is, especially when the site is supposed to be about security.
the original post on the original site is still there .... find that amusing
That's a good point and I often do, but in this case I din't think editing/changing a few words would work.Quote:
Originally posted here by allenb1963
Simple question here StreetRunner. Why not notify the member and give them a chance to edit their post before you just delete it? ...
Just a couple of small remarks...
- A referee is rarely a better player than the players themselves. Same goes for moderators (welp... for StreetRunner and me; not for MsMittens ;) ).
- As MsMittens stated before: "security administrators and others need to be aware of political events". Cosmos originally was intented to be a 'private' forum (access would only be granted to people who'd have been invited - I wouldn't mind Cosmos being a real private forum. When you've been granted access, you can't bitch about 'offensive' posts anymore.) That's what my original intent was: a forum where you can state your opinion on politics, religion, sex,... without having to be afraid of being banned. We've had some pretty spiced up discussions on Cosmos (from people admitting they're gay over revisionists to people claiming the cosmos is shaped like a donut), but I've rarely had to delete a thread/post. I think it's obvious that posts only trying to get AO off the net, or posts only bitching about antipoints or the 'fascism' of the new management (on a side note to the original poster: Google "fascism", study what it was about, then come back bitching) should/will be deleted immediately.
JP never gave me guideliness on how to 'run' GCC, Tutorials or Cosmos. He never forced me to delete threads, he never pushed me. He didn't have to. An example: we all know JP is gay and his name has been mentioned in numerous Attrition/whatever articles (/me waves to Celfie). A thread titled 'Gay JP is a fraud' I didn't even need to read: I deleted it with my eyes closed. No need to bring up the word 'censorship'. Not only do I find threads like that inappropriate and insulting; nobody will learn from it, and that's what's important.
Human moderating indeed is subjective. Personally, I wouldn't have deleted the original thread. I would have moved it to Cosmos, thus allowing people to learn from the original thread (which is not only historically incorrect, but also just a copy-and-paste, imo... ;) ), thus allowing people to react to it. If someone posted a thread calling all Belgians dickheads, I'd rather be able to reply to that particular person than seeing the thread deleted and being left alone with my frustrations (btw: for the bad understanders: people posting anti-war messages are not against Americans, they are against American government...doh). Me (and others) and KorpDeath (and others) for example don't get along at all when it comes to politics, but I like that guy. We have other mutual interests, and I'm pretty sure we'd get along if I'd ever meet him..thanks to Cosmos.
That's what Cosmos is about imo: vent your opinion, then go have a beer (Belgian beer, puleaaase).. Get rid of that, and all you'll have left is a clinical, technical, no-nonsense, 'clean' security-forum. Same goes for Genereal Chit Chat.
The abolishment of antipoints in non-security related forums has been suggested over and over again. The answer always has been 'no', because of one simple get-around method (figure it out yourself ;) ).
As for Cosmos and other non-security related forums not showing up on the front-page: I completely agree.
I'm done.. I think.. for now...
PS: I don't have full moderator-ship (yet?), but if I ever will, my first task will be to move all those posts in the "Antionline. How do I? Or what is?'-forum... jeebus.
That's what I thought addicts would be too... <shrug> Go figure. I'm just sort of leaving this as an "I'm alive at this point." post rather than some sort of suggestion that I know what the hell is really going on anymore :)Quote:
Cosmos originally was intented to be a 'private' forum (access would only be granted to people who'd have been invited
I always type out my posts in a text-editor before posting them... my text-editor version said 'people who'd have been invented'.. go figure ;)
negative says it best (his second to last post ) meow meow fascism is the convergence of corpratism and goverment - (paraphrased from )Mussolini
If you support your right to talk about large groups of peaple in a bad way, then you should also support me when I talk about you & your mother, right? But come on, man. Theres a difference between stretching whats politically correct and whats not, as oppossed to ranting.
(example)
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...492#post608492
The way I see it.... When you make a site its your property not someone else's. What your doing is more like walking into someones home and yelling/crying to the guests inside then wondering why the peaple inside boot you out or put ducktape over your mouth. Except in here you can make another account and come or leave whenever you feel like it. Nobodies taking away your rights here because you could just make your own site or come back with a different account when your banned. You try makeing yourself out to be some kinda 'activist' yet you come across as nothing more then a freaking clown that nobody wants to listen to.
Heck even in the U.S.A. you often need to take care of your taxes/bills to hold a nice spot in society and the words that come out of your mouth are only worth something intil the peaple who listen to you out number the ones who won't.
WTF?
By rollin post #1Quote:
i do. i had my wonderful post deleted "summary of germany's history" because the new mangament is prolly german and can't take the truth like they take the shaft.......
I do not think that this is the case.This has nothing todo with history. Your way off. Get serious will you. Where do you get your information from. I think that your post is very insulting towards Jupiter and any German person.
By moby_duck post #5Quote:
haha, ze Germans appear to be afraid of free speech. the Germans are the most ungrateful bunch of punks on earth. Reagan helps them tear down the Berlin wall and evict the USSR, and they repay us by stabbing us in the back. France is their new friend. long live the Franco-Prussian Empire!
punks.
Well, i dont know what to say to this. The fact that im in Greece, and my main nationality is German....im deeply insulted by you. How dare you say something like this. YOu should be banned for this. Damn you! Idiot.
I am not against freedom of speech in any way. But comming up with insults like that is not right. This whole issure started out what happened in the past. The Germans now do not disagree at what had happened in the past. Its not like the German people had a choice at those nazi times. They were forced. Anyone who did not support Hitler, was executed. Whats the point of the anti - german post? Does it make ME a bad person, a wrong person, or like that freak moby pointed out, a punk? I think that personal opinions are important, and should be respected, but to start a thread on something thats history and start flaming it has nothing got todo with opinions. Thats plain insulting and totally wrong. I also think that the original thread was intended not to show how bad the germans were, but how good the USA is, by always saying how much they have done. Well, let me tell you something. The USA has bombed more countries and has killed more people than any other country or war. But still, i do not blame the USA. Its not the USA, but its the greedy governments behind. And that applies for all countries. Its not the countries, but the greedy governments behind. So nor was it germany, it was Hitler, (hitler was not even german). With what right do you blame a country (the people). Am i responsible for the killing of the jews, or the attacks on european countries, or my parents, or what? In any case, its definetaly NOT "moby" or "rollin" who have the right to judge that. Nor do i think that anyone on these forumes has the right to judge that. Im was deeply insulted by this thread, i did not post to it, nor neg it nor anything. I simply tried to ignore it. Now by reading this thread, i finally saw the intelligence of the people who actually post. Meaning absolutely 0. Thanks to MSMITTENS, and NEGATIVE who actually posted intelligent stuff to this thread here, some of the people who have no idea about history or anything human related, some facts have been cleared. Now to get to the point of this thread here. I dont think that a poster shoule be informed about deleting a thread or it will be deleted by admins, moderators or anyone. The people who are moderators, or admins are not what they are by pure luck. They have been chosen by people who know what they are doing. If you dont like the policy, then go elsewhere. Noone is forcing you to come here. This is a security site, and yes, sometimes politics are discussed here, and thats not bad or wrong. Aslong as its not insulting towards anything that are not responsible. These kinds of posts are dangerous. Maybe a change of political posts should be introduced to AO after all. Im sorry if i insulted anyone here, i sure as hell am insulted. And just one more thing i would like to point out to "rollin". The USA did not help germany due to good will or anything like that. It was all about power and own benefit. Before you ask in what ways, go lookup your history and anything related to these subjects. This post is orientated against "rollin" and "moby". Not anyone else.
Im sorry if my post does not make much sense. I just woke up (sunday morning, nice weather) and i got really upset reading this **** here. And "rollin", if you dont like the new management, then go away. Noone is forcing you to come here. This community is fine the way it is, we dont need **** like that from you or anyone else.
Good bye now!
:mad: