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Did not see this yet on the forums. Not much meat in the article, but this does not lead me to believe that we are going to make nice yet with anyone who opposed the US led war:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...ons/index.html
So does this reinforce the general feeling of the US being an "arrogant bully" to the rest of the world? Or is Powell correct?
What did the French think would happen? They went out of their way to lobby against us this whole time, even traveling to various african nations to bribe for support, yeah were gonna spank you on the ass and give you a birthday cake. I dont think so!
Only in reaction of what US have done.Quote:
dublix said
They went out of their way to lobby against us this whole time, even traveling to various african nations to bribe for support
The embargo was established by the Un against Saddam for that he disarms his country.As Saddam is not there any more and to help the Iraqi people in the rebuilding of the country, France required to suspend this embargo, so that once the protected country the inspectors of UN checks disarm it. If the country is not disarmed the embargo should resume.
France is pushing the edge on this one, they were about to try to keep the sanctions going until it was verified that all the WMD were gone. Hello!! The people need food and medicine, and Saddam is no more! Suspend! The French are so callous and arrogant. Who do they think they are fooling with this shell game. Anyone can see the moral in dropping the sanctions immediately and letting those poor people have some good food, water, medicine etc...Hell, after what they have gone through they should have just about anything they want for a good long time.Quote:
Only in reaction of what US have done.
The embargo was established by the Un against Saddam for that he disarms his country.As Saddam is not there any more and to help the Iraqi people in the rebuilding of the country, France required to suspend this embargo, so that once the protected country the inspectors of UN checks disarm it. If the country is not disarmed the embargo should resume.
What did we do again??Quote:
Only in reaction of what US have done.
You offered Turkey 100's of millions of dollars in exchange for their support, and you almost got them to join you... too bad Turkish government didn't dare to go in against the Turkish people :DQuote:
What did we do again??
That's just one example of what Ghostdog means, I think...
you(usa) went against the un and the rest of the world and used "preemptive" force to kill 1000 s of people ,spyed on,wire tapped, bribed, and bullied fellow nations, saying the french are arrogant is the pot calling the kettle black and how many nations were/are putting up troops to kill iraqis hmmmmmmmmmmmmm 3 . cui bono ? maybe hmmm bechtel , halliburton and other bush cronys hmmmm and who pays the iraqis with their blood and their oil . good thing they have oil so they can pay for reconstuction. Not like the Afghanis which now are ruled by warlords ,well unless you live in Kabul.
Hey if the U.N wants to debate all day and not enforce their own mandates, then whomever is able to do the deed should. OMG CHRÉTIEN is such a moral authority excuse me!! I suggest you go talk to the Iraqi's that were throwing flowers at our troops and dancing on Saddam's face in the square, in the meantime all who opposed the war can just go get the rest of the egg of their faces!Quote:
you(usa) went against the un and the rest of the world and used "preemptive" force to kill 1000 s of people ,spyed on,wire tapped, bribed, and bullied fellow nations, saying the french are arrogant is the pot calling the kettle black and how many nations were/are putting up troops to kill iraqis hmmmmmmmmmmmmm 3 . cui bono ? maybe hmmm bechtel , halliburton and other bush cronys hmmmm and who pays the iraqis with their blood and their oil . good thing they have oil so they can pay for reconstuction. Not like the Afghanis which now are ruled by warlords ,well unless you live in Kabul.
<edit>
My words here may seem a bit harsh, but 9/11 didnt happen to you so i have no regrets..
Yeah, Turkey wanted what 30 billion to "allow" us to use their land??? And we were offering 16??? From over here it sounded more like extortion from an already nafarious regime, if you ask me. But they did remind us they are our NATO ally, hmmm.....
Yeah heaven forbid the turkish gov't go against their people, they'd just have to worry about bigger mass graves, right Negative??? :thumbsup:
France has already send food and medecine for iraqi.Quote:
dublix said
The people need food and medicine, and Saddam is no more! Suspend! The French are so callous and arrogant. Who do they think they are fooling with this shell game. Anyone can see the moral in dropping the sanctions immediately and letting those poor people have some good food, water, medicine etc.
Quote:
dublix said
"Only in reaction of what US have done."
What did we do again??
That's what I refer to.Quote:
Negative said
You offered Turkey 100's of millions of dollars in exchange for their support, and you almost got them to join you... too bad Turkish government didn't dare to go in against the Turkish people
That's just one example of what Ghostdog means, I think...
I am on a call right now with an SSH rep and the conversation changed from SSH to what is going on right now with the US. We have spent about 30 minutes just going over this and other topics related to the War.
I just wanted to say a few things about the conversation. Why would I bother with this? Just to hopefully point out that we are thinking here outside of the Bush. These are the opinions of me and the this sales rep only:
1) Ok - the war is fine, but we did say we were going over to find WMDs - disarm Iraq? Right? So where the hell are they? What irks us is that this thing is costing us about 1 billion US $$$ a week, and we have @36 out of the 50 states operating under a loss for a budget this year! Obviously the $$$ is major, but even more so the loss of life on both sides and still no WMDs! And now we look like even bigger A-holes to the rest of the world! ARRRGGH! Again - if we needed to go to war fine, I even wanted to go back in, but was blocked by my family - seriously - my wife almost tee'd my head off just for suggesting I go back in. Just - where are the WMDs?!?
2) We hate to say this, but this War and the "War on Terrorism" should have to be completely wrapped up - meaning we that we would have to have found both Saddam and Usama and give them a heavy lead head-heart proliferation operation - two in the head, one in the heart, before any other actions are taken! This is just good project management - you complete the project by completing the milestons, we close and celebrate! And this includes our
C-in-C 'refocusing' on NKorea and domestic issues. Yes - I know those issues are hot, but as I have stated before, Saddam and Usama have much less lead and iron in their diets than I and many others would like, and the US needs to prove that we can TCB completely... F**k!
3) On Powell and France - I guess this is more of a question than anything. When France officials, the Foreign Ministry in this case states:
Is is because of principal or economic interests that existed between Iraq and France before the war? I am still looking for evidence of the latter - but since this is cosmos, I am really wondering the 'real' reasons? Or is it as many opposing countries stated - simply the way the US govt proceeded with military action? Again - it may seem obvious, but I like to revisit things once inawhile.Quote:
"Throughout the Iraq crisis, France, along with a very large majority of the international community, acted in conformity with its convictions and its principles to defend international law."
/edit on
I just saw this, interestingly enough it was actually linked from a French news site to this US article. Let's see what you think:
France's scheme hits a U.S. wall
/edit off
I may add more later as I am starting to calm down now, but I'm sure my temper will be back up soon.
Well hopefuly next election cycle one of the dems is smart enough to revive "It's the economay stuipd" what worked for dad works for shrub. As for which country is worse, I will be very critical of the US, and yes we are arrogent but lest not forget who isn't part of the nuke nonproliferation treaty. One hint they like forgs legs...that same country also test air burst nukes over south pacific atols...this same country considers the third world as a source of colonies and nothing else...people whos grandparents where Algerian can't get citizan ship there..and finaly they didn't give women the right to vote untill the 1980's. I don't mind the US being painted as a baad guy..but DON"T try to paint the french as a good guy. Remember if it wasn't for the arrogence of France and the UK considering the Middle East their personal sandbox for most of the 20th centurary none of this mess owuld have happened.
Do you speak about France? If so then the nuclear test were done underground not over atols. France have made some test to finalize a program (1996) and now all the experiment are made on a simulator. Last US test were done in 1994. But what about the new US weapon project "obust nuclear earth penetrator" (mini nuke).Quote:
bbalad said
that same country also test air burst nukes over south pacific atols...this same country considers the third world as a source of colonies and nothing else...people whos grandparents where Algerian can't get citizan ship there..and finaly they didn't give women the right to vote untill the 1980's.
Algeria is an independant country since 1962. I know there's some problem with the algerian who fight for France but all algerian can't be french if there are not born in France.
France give the right to vote to women in 1944 (1920 in the USA).
I have read the article submit by vescovono (France's scheme hits a U.S. wall) and I find it very strange since Mr. Chirac always said UN. I don't understand why now he would have said France. In all the interview I've seen and read he always said that post war must be done by UN. I don't know timesunion.com so I don't know if I can take this or not. If someone have another article I appreciate (I belive that cnn, bbc, washintonpost, lemonde are good).
Question for the americans on this board if France should have to pay for their beliefs, what about the americans that have been caught looting Iraq? On ABC news they only had a couple of minutes devoted to this but a Fox reporter was fired because customs found 12 painting from Saddam`s palace rolled up in his luggage also what about all the stuff taken out of the american marines gear that they took from museums? Now before you get upset about this it was your own news media that brought this up. According to Mr Bush you were going over there to free the people from Saddam and not to steal from them so "What should they be charged with?" Maybe the americans should stop and think, by bad mouthing other countries and then getting caught looting it does make the rest of the world wonder just what was the real reason for overthrowing the Iraqi government that America helped put in place.
ANY looters should have to face justice. In this war it especially includes Americans. We also have however Iraqi's looting from other Iraqi's. It infuriated me that looting at all took place even worse when the musems and the like were hit - again no matter WHO does it. It's just wrong. I also think looting does not reside within one country alone - meaning that I would be hard-pressed to believe, any country would be so righteous that looting would not be a temptation; it's human nature. It's wrong, but it still falls within human nature.Quote:
Question for the americans on this board if France should have to pay for their beliefs, what about the americans that have been caught looting Iraq? On ABC news they only had a couple of minutes devoted to this but a Fox reporter was fired because customs found 12 painting from Saddam`s palace rolled up in his luggage also what about all the stuff taken out of the american marines gear that they took from museums? Now before you get upset about this it was your own news media that brought this up. According to Mr Bush you were going over there to free the people from Saddam and not to steal from them so "What should they be charged with?" Maybe the americans should stop and think, by bad mouthing other countries and then getting caught looting it does make the rest of the world wonder just what was the real reason for overthrowing the Iraqi government that America helped put in place.
Just think of all the wars we have had and how treasures of a war torn country have disappeared. Hell when Rome was the world power, the emperors of that time demanded looting; probably along with any other nations in the past that 'won' a war in the enemy's homeland.
Obvioulsy looting is not right and whomever partakes in this lifetime or other, should face charges and justice. For this war, the ex-Fox reporter will face charges, along with any other American caught; so too should it go for anyone committing looting and is caught.
Quote:
Originally posted here by lostit44
Question for the americans on this board if France should have to pay for their beliefs, what about the americans that have been caught looting Iraq? On ABC news they only had a couple of minutes devoted to this but a Fox reporter was fired because customs found 12 painting from Saddam`s palace rolled up in his luggage also what about all the stuff taken out of the american marines gear that they took from museums? Now before you get upset about this it was your own news media that brought this up. According to Mr Bush you were going over there to free the people from Saddam and not to steal from them so "What should they be charged with?" Maybe the americans should stop and think, by bad mouthing other countries and then getting caught looting it does make the rest of the world wonder just what was the real reason for overthrowing the Iraqi government that America helped put in place.
Personally, I find that behavior absolutely disgusting. Anyone caught looting should be punished without hesitation. Extradict him to Iraq and have them find a suitable punishment for him. He did steal belongings from them... after all.
BTW- All Americans did not get caught stealing so your line of logic is WAY off. Oh, wait you caught us, we went there just to loot all those wonderful paintings of Saddam, you're right. Is our M.O. that obvious????
peace
Let it be noted that ver few americns looted, especaly when compared to the Iraq's. Also note every one cought was punished. I will bash my country and president when warrented (like his estate tax cut) but this time it is not warrented. Agian the French controlled this portion of the world until the 60's and did much worse then the US ever has...Don't go looking for blood on someone elses hands when you are drenched in it.
France has not controlled this protion of the world. France just have a colony : Algeria.Quote:
bballad said:
Agian the French controlled this portion of the world until the 60's
We wont even go into French Indo-China, or the French colonies in Africa to disprove this one.
Look up the Sykes-Picot Agreement singed by France and England after WW1 from this the French got Syria and Lebanon.
Luckily the French are rather inept at war (see Indo-China) and Syria and Lebanon where able to gain freedom in successful revolts in the late 40's early 50's. They continued to try and eake out a foot hold until the mid 50's ( I was 10 years off in my earlier post ).
So yes The French did control this portion of the world.
What’s with all the people on this board that are ignorant of their own countries history? I thought the Europeans where supposed to be well educated when it came to history and geography?
HUh...Remember folks the US is the evil backward country....Yet any one regardless of country of birth can become a US citizen...In France the "progressive" good guys you are a second class citizen unless your ancestors where all born there.Quote:
Originally posted here by Ghostdog
Algeria is an independant country since 1962. I know there's some problem with the algerian who fight for France but all algerian can't be french if there are not born in France.
I am not saying the US is perfect and can do no wrong. I am just commenting on countries in glass houses throwing stones.
Lack of information never stopped anyone here from having a baseless opinion.
(That's an open invitation for anyone to take a shot.) ;)
And USA is good at war (see Vietnam).Quote:
bballad said
Luckily the French are rather inept at war (see Indo-China)
I was always null in history geography at the school but the difference now it is that I grew, I becomes aware of what surrounds me but I still have gaps.Quote:
bballad said
What’s with all the people on this board that are ignorant of their own countries history? I thought the Europeans where supposed to be well educated when it came to history and geography?
You can become a French citizen if you ask for it. Since Napoleon you are French when you are born in France even if your parents are not French. If a US woman comes in France during holidays and have a baby, the baby can have the french nationality.Quote:
bballad said
HUh...Remember folks the US is the evil backward country....Yet any one regardless of country of birth can become a US citizen...In France the "progressive" good guys you are a second class citizen unless your ancestors where all born there.
I have trouble reading the grief that is being given by the Europeans on this board.
I travelled through some of the areas that were the "cradles" of western civilizations. Egypt, Israel, Greece to name a few. I visited one historic area after another to be told by local guides that the archeological teams that dug the areas stole most of the artifacts that came from them. Most of that work was done by French and British teams.
What about the burning of the library of Alexandria? History has lots of references of destruction and looting.
It's not right. It happens. The US isn't alone with this problem
You can find a lot more us victories then defeats...can you say the same for a post neploianic france?Quote:
Unless you are Algerian, or you parents where Algerian...what’s with that?Quote:
You can become a French citizen if you ask for it. Since Napoleon you are French when you are born in France even if your parents are not French. If a US woman comes in France during holidays and have a baby, the baby can have the french nationality. [/B]
I am not saying that the US is perfect, just don’t try and hold France up as any better it has plenty of serious issues.
What neploianic mean ? I can't find it in my dictionnary but what I can say is that France has a much longer history and we have a long war experience. Yes we lost war but in last years there is not much war that a single country do alone. The Iraq war is not a US victory it's a victory of US and UK with some Australia help too. How many war US or France did alone ? I think there is not much.Quote:
bballad said
You can find a lot more us victories then defeats...can you say the same for a post neploianic france?
Yes you can become a french citizen if you are algerian. The war between our countries is finish. Don't you have seen how Chirac have been welcome the last time ?Quote:
bballad said
Unless you are Algerian, or you parents where Algerian...what’s with that?
I don't say that France give the nationnality to all foreign people who ask for it, there is some condition like to be a US citizen but if someone has all the condition he can be a french citizen.
I'm not saying France is a perfect country, I'm not saying US is worse. Our two countries have good things and bad things. We are living in two countries with there own past, with there own evolution. No one is better, no one is worse. When I see and hear the anti american and anti french I'm sad. We are in most industrialized countries and our gouvernment play as kids. Yes we have a different point of view but the fact being able to say it show that we are in a democracy. Why act like children ? That gives a good vision to Iraqi of the démocracy and countries which "control" the world (United Nations).Quote:
bballad said
I am not saying that the US is perfect, just don’t try and hold France up as any better it has plenty of serious issues.
I will have to ask forgiveness to re-posting to one of my older threads, I just thought this might make some people feel a little bit better on the looting going on in Iraq:
Thousands of Iraqi artifacts found
It's not everything, but it's a good start.