Value of certification

I am about 2 practice testes away from my Security+ cert. What can I expect to gain in my career by having this cert? I origionally started studying for this as a way to better my understanding. I have been in networking since 1992 and really have covered everything from helpdesk to design and implementation to a short stint as a Director. My only cert right now is an MCP in NT.

What I am trying to ask is, what benefit will certs have for me if I am serious about getting into security? I currently make very little because I do not have certs (except the one mentioned above). I want to change that as well as become a proficient security expert.

Snow

I've learned that certs always look good on paper, but in the end, experience is ALWAYS the key.

For instance, at my work we have a guy who worked in IT for 3 years with no certs. He can outperform the new guy we just hired who has Cisco certs and an MCSE.

In my experience (with both a degree as well as a number of certifications), I find that the only thing the certifications truly offer me (besides knowledge) is something to write behind my name. Sometimes, employers will ask about my certifications, and on a few instances, I was able to earn a little extra money, but overall, they help you gain knowledge which, in itself, makes you more marketable and giving you an advanage over other applicants.

AJ

Well the first thing you have to understand is that a Cert is not a sure gurantee that you wiil get a better job or more money. A perfect example of this is the flood of "paper" MCSEs out there. I'm not sure I'd let half of them load a VCR tape let alone an operating system.

The next thing to keep in mind is that employers are looking for a number of things which include Certs but more likely they will look at your experience and a laundry list of other things. Take my word on this one, I'm actively involved in our recruiting process. ;)

Another important point is that Certs are like clothing fads, they are constantly changing and who knows which one will be hot next. A good example of this is the infamous Novell CNE Cert. I know that my company (years ago) spent tens of thousands of dollars on Novell training for me and today they are about as usefull as used toilet paper.

To sum it up, obtaining Certs is one small part of a well rounded IT professional. Look to balance experience with Certificates. You'll also need to be able to sell yourself to employers which means you will need social skills. One step further on this, you'll need to be able to translate techie terms to non technical co workers and managment. As if this isn't enough, you'll need to compete against thousands of others who are trying to do a better job at it than you are.

So you see, it's not what Cert will get me where I need to go, it's, "What things do I need to master in order to stand out from a crowd and leverage opportunities when I am successful at doing so?".

Make sense?

--TH13

That is exactly what I was thinking but I was not sure it was the same in the security filed as it is in my current field. I want more than anything to stand out and be recognized more than my counterparts. That drives me to learn all I can. I have a basic degree but that has never gotten me in the door for a job.


I am hoping to earn these certs. (security+ and CISSP eventually) to enable me to get the jobs I want. I am very interested in security as it requires a WIDE variety of disciplines to master. I have most of them but I am still not at the level that I want.

And I really want to increase my income potential. That is, after all, a driving factor for me.

Snow

It has been my experience that when looking for a job your certifications are the last thing that an employer takes in to consideration. I have done work as a desktop technician, network support and software support for about five years now with no formal training and no certifications. In January I got my MCSA and MCSE and decided I would start looking for a new job. So far these certs have gotten me nowhere on the job market but they have caused my current employer to "help" me with advancing my career within the company and a few bonuses on the paycheck here and there. That is where I see the value of certifications really existing. I gues it shows that you are dedicated to learn and help the company if you are willing to spend the money and time to get the certs. I know I ramble a little here and there but I do try to make sense. Have a good day.

Don't depend on certifications to get you a job. Certifications are just icing on the cake.

As a completely self taught Manager of Information systems with 20+ years of experience "playing" with computers, 15 years of that in network administration and ten years of that in my current position with a staff of six I can assure you that 90% of the battle is the way you write your resume and cover letter and how you then interview if your resume stays out of the trash.

Rule 1. When I read resumes there will be no spelling or grammatical errors.... Period. If you don't have the gumption to use a spell checker and grammar checker when you write something that presents yourself to others then your attention to detail is zero. Attention to detail is important in this business..... so let's get it right.

Rule 2. is does the applicant demonstrate the fact that s/he _read_ the Ad? I dunno but I get resumes that have _none_ of the experience I am looking for. None whatsoever!!!! You not only waste your time but you waste mine..... How much more of _my_ time are you going to waste if I give you the opportunity.

Rule 3. If you tell me about all your certifications you had better demonstrate some experience to back them up. If you don't then they are worth exactly the paper they are written on as far as I am concerned.

If you don't meet the first three rules you won't meet me..... Period..... I don't care who's brother or sister you are or how much my CEO likes you.... I won't waste your time and you therefore cannot waste mine.

I learned the hard way several years ago that college degrees and many certifications are pretty meaningless in this business. See, the business, (when you actually have to deal with users as opposed to being more theoretical), isn't just about making computers work. It's making computers work while not dis-affecting x hundred users. It's making them work despite x hundred users by pre-planning and having multiple plan B's all so the users don't know you are messing with their data. This means you need to be technically adept, creative, quick to learn, attend to those details and you need to show me that in the interview.

Too many colleges teach 10 year old programming languages and call it a degree in compter science and I say B$...... Computer Science is the science of computers - how they work - why they work - not programming in the obscure language the university's accounting department use so the university can have some free programming done by the students and overseen by the teacher.

I ask this simple question at the beginning of each interview. "What is the relationship between the IRQ, port address and the CPU?". Your answer directly determines the length of the interview and you would be surprised how many short interviews even those with Masters in Computer Science have had with me.

It's not that I am a nasty bastard...... But I don't like wasting my time or anyone elses..... ;)

:p

Yeah , I agree,

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Don't depend on certifications to get you a job. Certifications are just icing on the cake.

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but the problem I have is-

Cake without icing on it doesnt look tasty.

Dr Evil

OOOOO!!!! I know the answer Tiger!!! :)

It's an address that the CPU uses to comminicate with a particular device such as a NIC or a mouse. Can I interview a bit longer??!!

Sorry buddy, I couldn't resist. I like your cynical humor.

Horse: ROFLMAO.....

Now you went and ruined it...... You could have at least hidden your post..... Now I'm going to get 2,000 resumes 'cos now everyone thinks they can get at least a ten minute "chat".... ;)

I have always interviewed well. I have a very well written resume that has been reviewed and tweaked by many hiring managers and influential people I have met over the years. I always get the comment, "You need some formal training or certifications to get noticed. Your resume says you have done these many things but are not good enough to certify". I always took that with a grain of salt as I really do have a large skill set. It has afforded me many jobs. All of them below my realm of expertise because I do not have the paper to back it up.

I am getting flushed out of the market at this time by kids 10 years younger than me to DO have a "paper cert" and could not find there way around a patch cable with a diagram. How do you suggest expressing my qualifications as a proffesional without a certification stating that I have what it takes to achieve this piece of paper? A certification, in my case, would not be a paper cert. I do not just study to pass a test. I study to learn. The passing grade has always just been a fringe benefit.


Snow

Have you worked for well known organizations? For instance, on my resume you'll see plenty of work done at the Pentagon and with branches of the Dept. of Defense. Sometimes the place you have worked will carry a great deal of weight. Do you have anything like that?

I have worked for Raymond James, Price Waterhouse Coopers, IBM, Danka, and I am currently working for Janus Mutual Funds.

Snow

As a person who makes IT related decisions for my company, here is how I view certifications.

Certifications are good but they are not the silver bullet for employment. They may certify that you have at minimum a book level knowlege of that subject, and that is fine. But nothing makes up for work experience. A stong history of performance in your area of expertise is key to landing a job, certifications on top of that are a bonus, and a nice presentation of yourself is priceless.

Not all certs are created equal. Those that require verified work experience (CISSP/CISM) are very useful in some situations, for example... relocating. If I have a candidate from another country and they have such certs then I am likely to give them a chance if they lack such certs I am likely to pitch the application. Why? because it is too much of a pain for me to go verifying their education and experience, plains and simple.

I do not give any weight to certs based on tests alone, but I know some places do and others give pay bonuses. So the answer is... maybe. Just look at job listings and see if jobs you are interested in every mention certs.

catch

I have posted similar points on similar threads, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Experience and knowledge outweigh everything else in the long run.

Unfortunately you have to get in the door first. Some companies require a degree to even talk to you. Some job postings list CISSP or CCNA or MCSE as the case may be as a requirement. In those cases obviously you syhould have whatever it is the prospective employer is requiring.

In general I am in favor of getting a certification or two and an entry-level job basically straight out of high school and working your way up. While working and gaining experience you can hopefully get your employer to pay for or at least subsidize your education. At the very least you will have an income to pay for school while you pursue a degree instead of racking up $50,000+ in student loans.

By the time you hit the glass ceiling into middle or upper management where a degree starts to become more of a requirement you will have earned it- but you will also have 5 or 6 years of experience, a good income and no student loan debt.

Everyone goes round and round about this. I just think that when you spend 4 years going to college you come out with a piece of paper, hardly any practical knowledge applicable to the real world, a bunch of student loan debt and you are gunning for entry-level positions.

There are exceptions to every rule and everyone's situation is unique. This is just my $.02

You need the piece of paper these days to say I can do this stuff.

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You need the piece of paper these days to say I can do this stuff.

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If you walked in to an interview with me and all you had was a piece of paper and you couldn't answer questions to demonstrate a high level of techincal unsderstanding, I'd direct you to the nearest bathroom and tell you how to use that piece of paper.

Or if I *really* didn't like you, I'd send you over to TigerShark for a follow-up interview. LOL. FEAR TigerShark, he is even more angry than I am. ;)

Again, certs are just one item that a well rounded IT professional must posses - period.

--TH13

Hey Horse...... That's hardly fair...... It's not anger..... It's.... er..... A highly developed sense of......er..... the value of my time...... Yeah.... that's it......Highly developed....... ;)

That is good to hear. I am pretty well rounded. I was a contractor for a few years and had the chance to learn many skills quickly while on the job. As I said I have done amlost everything you can imagine in the technical field outside of programming.

I guess I really just need to work on my resume to get my skillset accross in a more obvious manner. Being in Denver right now, the market is tougher than what I am used to in Tampa. I am going to have to work on networking a bit as well to make up for my lack of "Get in the door" credentials like certifications.

You have all been a great help and I think you have set me in the right direction (since I was deffinately on the wrong one when I started this post).

Thanks to all of you!!


Snow

Tiger,

Suuuuuuuuuure, I understand. Really - I do. :)

Hey if you *really* want to weed out the slackers, ask them:

In relation to IRQs, why are SCSI devices faster?

LOL

I know this is kinda late, but I thought you might be interested in the following article:

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Certifications are Worth It by Linda Musthaler

Every year, Certification Magazine conducts a survey to determine the effect of technical certifications on an IT professional's salary and career. During the economic boom, certified professionals could boast of huge salary gains that were higher than their noncertified colleagues. Salary disparities between the "haves" and "have nots" often reached 20% and more. It was easy to say, then, that attaining a technical certification was worth the time, cost and effort.

But what about today? The economy has soured, IT spending has slowed to a crawl, and many IT professionals have experienced or witnessed massive layoffs. Those who have been laid off are having trouble finding jobs. Is there still any value in getting a technical certification?

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It was published in a recent issue of Network World and the whole article can be found online here

AJ

Edit: Type in link address

I'm just about to take a course in webdesign, which will give me the chance to get 4 cert

adobe photoshop 7
macromedia dreamweaver mx
macromedia flash mx designer
macromedia flash mx developer

although I work as a System Administrator on a windows 2000 network, I'm trying to expand to webdesign also, because it's something that I like and can give a few extra bucks at the end of the month.

Ther is also a course pack that I'm thinking of getting next that gives you MCSA + MSCE + MCDBA.

to specialize in a field or study is better or to be a master in every field :confused: