Abu Mazin/Puppet or not?

Bomb blast rip through Israel again for the fifth time in three days. Seem's to me like "Abu Mazin" isnt doing a damn thing. He want's to pursuade the terrorist to give up their weapons and avoid doing it by force. This is nothing more than a horrible rerun of Arafat. This new appoinment of Abu Mazin as Prime Minister is nothing but a ruse.

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Latest Suicide Bombing Kills Two at Israeli Mall
Mon May 19, 2003 12:15 PM ET
By Shlomi Afriat

AFULA, Israel (Reuters) - A suspected Palestinian suicide bomber killed at least two people, including a security guard, and wounded 17 others at a shopping mall in northern Israel Monday, police and witnesses said.

The fifth suicide bombing in three days dealt another blow to hopes that a U.S.-backed peace plan will take hold to end a more than 31-month-old Palestinian uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war.

The suicide bomber appeared to have detonated his explosives when confronted by the guard at the mall's entrance, witnesses said. Police described the bomber as a man after initial reports suggested it was a woman -- a rarity for Palestinian attacks.

Police, medics and passersby clambered up steps to the covered mall entrance, whose doors were shattered by the blast. A Hebrew sign over the entrance bid shoppers "Welcome."

"There was a huge explosion at the entrance. Some of the wounded were taken away by ambulances, and there are some dead here," an unidentified witness told Israel in Afula, which is a few kilometers (miles) from the West bank.

Regional police chief Yakov Borovsky said: "We are talking about a dead terrorist and two other people killed ... All the possibilities are being investigated, but there is no doubt that our methods of security ... prevented far worse casualties."

An Israeli security source said unknown persons were spotted racing away from the scene shortly before blast. Israeli police units were sealing off the area for searches.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility. But Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, a senior figure in the militant Islamic movement Hamas, said the fight against Israel would continue.

"The attack indicates that the Palestinian people will not surrender to the Zionist terrorism and it says clearly that the Palestinians' blood is not cheap," he told Reuters in Gaza.

The attack was part of a surge of violence since talks between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas Saturday night on a U.S.-led "road map" to establishing Palestinian statehood by 2005.

The bloodshed prompted Sharon to put off a visit to the United States this week. Sharon has not yet accepted the road map, saying Israel wanted to request changes to the plan.

A Palestinian suicide bomber with 22 to 44 pounds of explosives packed on the back of his bicycle blew up near an army jeep in the Gaza Strip earlier Monday, killing himself and slightly wounding three soldiers.

A day earlier a Palestinian militant disguised as a religious Jew blew himself up on a Jerusalem bus, killing seven people, and a suicide bomber killed only himself when he detonated explosives near a roadblock shortly afterwards.

A suicide bombing also killed a Jewish settler and his pregnant wife in the West Bank city of Hebron Saturday.

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Now I know what the usual line is that always comes from Arafat "We condem the killing of women and children." Yet this bastard does nothing to stop any of it. In my opinion Abu Mazin is nothing more than a puppet of Yasser Afrafat. The "homicide" bombers are so predictable, every time peace talks are about to resume, the bombings begin to happen. Now you might say that this is soley the work of the terrorist, I disagree. If Yasser Arafat wanted to stop these attacks, he damn sure could, and when they "symbolically" put these terrorist in jail there is a nice revolving door in the back for them to go through. I say expel Arafat, get someone on the Palestinian side who is willing to pursue these terrorist, and then let the peace talks begin.

well if the isrealis would split the 3-4 billion a year they get from the states with the palestinians they would be able to afford real weapons and wouldn't have to do suicide bombings. (the palestinians are no different than blacks in south africa 20 years ago,can you say aparthied)

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well if the isrealis would split the 3-4 billion a year they get from the states with the palestinians they would be able to afford real weapons and wouldn't have to do suicide bombings. (the palestinians are no different than blacks in south africa 20 years ago,can you say aparthied)

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Is this a joke? You have got to be kidding me. Do you have a clue as to how much money the PLO has received from nations across the globe? They have received more than enough to help their people. How the hell do you compare not having money for weapons with the killing of women and children?

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aparthied

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Bull, how many concession's have we seen the Israeli's offer? Too many to count my friend! And what has been the response to these concession's by the PLO: Bombing after bombing, and murder after murder. Going after military personel is one thing, killing a baby at a shopping mall and families at wedding's is far different.

Of course attacking the USS Liberty sinking it and then shooting at the US Sailors that were abandoning the ship was something else too. (1967)

Why the US Navy didn't take Israel off the map for that one is beyond me.

Well, you can argue this one either way, but I believe they mistook our ship for an Eygptian ship. Friendly fire happens, and they are our friend and better to be wounded by a friend than by an enemy, because a wound from a friend can be trusted. ;)

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Originally posted here by bugsthecat
well if the isrealis would split the 3-4 billion a year they get from the states with the palestinians they would be able to afford real weapons and wouldn't have to do suicide bombings. (the palestinians are no different than blacks in south africa 20 years ago,can you say aparthied)

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You obviously haven't been keeping an eye on this situation for very long to make such an asinine comment such as that.
Aparthied? Talk about apples and oranges. Ugh!

P.S. I don't even know why I responded to such a ludicrous post. I need to be more selective.

You know, I can understand why the Palestinians are blowing themselves up in Israel. I can understand it, but I can't justify it - acts of violence is unjustifiable IMO, it should only take place when all else is tried.

The Palestinians are occupied by a powerful enemy, and I guess they want to fight every way they can. The suicide bombings are effective and the Israelis certainly has noe good way of stopping the bombing.

Back in the 40s my contry was occupied by the Germans. The German army was supreme to the Norwegian, and there really was no hope of fighting the conventional way. So people went and blew up buildings and bridges, terrorism I guess, but I don't think anyone called it that at the time.

I'm not trying to create a parallell between the Germans during WW2 and the present Israel, after all the Israelis are friends and a democratic state. But I can see a common denominator between the German occupation of Norway and the Israeli occupation of Palestine - both Norwegians and Palestinians hated/hate their occupant and are willing to do a lot of bad things to harm the enemy. Even if it's not really gonna make the enemy go away. The men who blew up the German police HQ in Oslo in 1942 didn't believe the Germans would go away - but they though it would frighten and piss of the Germans, I guess that was a reason good enough for them. Innocent people were killed, but I don't think the Norwegians cared. Most people when they look back, probably think it still was a right thing to do.

A friend's grandfather became a member of the Norwegian nazi party (controlled by the Germans) during the occupation. That was wrong and cowardly, don't you think? Well, he was a peace loving man, and he did it because he believed that would stop the violence. I'm not sure what I would have done, but I think I would have tried to fight the occupant. Today we know that would have been the right choice, because the occupant was finally defeated. And we know that the Palestinians are wrong about fighting, because they are not gonna win - only make matters worse. Maybe the Palestinians believe fighting will get rid of the occupant, i don't know.

So, IMO the Norwegians were right to blow up German istallations, and the Palestine are wrong to blow up Israeli. And it's all got to do with the outcome of the conflict. Would I support the Palestinian suicide bombing if I knew it would make Israel withdraw from the occupied soil. Hmmm... Maybe. Probably.

Again, I would like to say that I do not in any way place Nazi Germany and Israel side by side. I'm just trying to use examples that are close to me, and the German occupation is easy for me to relate to.

And I would like to say that in the Israeli/Palestine conflict, there are not really any badguys. Just an extremely difficult conflict and people who do what they think is right - no matter how wrong they might be.

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Would I support the Palestinian suicide bombing if I knew it would make Israel withdraw from the occupied soil. Hmmm... Maybe. Probably.

Again, I would like to say that I do not in any way place Nazi Germany and Israel side by side. I'm just trying to use examples that are close to me, and the German occupation is easy for me to relate to.

And I would like to say that in the Israeli/Palestine conflict, there are not really any badguys. Just an extremely difficult conflict and people who do what they think is right - no matter how wrong they might be.

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From reading your article here, you seem to almost sit on both sides of the fence. It wouldnt be a bid deal to do a sucicide bomb on a soldier, but i made it clear in my post that these are targeted against women and children. There is no justification for killing women and children.

And about the occupation, what do you suggest the Israeli's do just sit back and allow this rein of terror to continue? If this was my country we would take action, just as we are already. They have to go in and fight the terrorist, and this terror is about one thing antisemitism plain and simple. Just like when the Iraeli's gave Arafat a whopping 97% of what he wanted, and what was his response?: The entifada(or uprising) against Israel. And this same entifada continues today. I would caution you to not be fooled by what Arafat says in english to the press ,but pay close attention to what he says in arabic(if your lucky enough for someone to translate for you)some programs will give you a bit of what he is saying in Arabic to the "street" after the cameras are off. This has nothing to do with land or occupation, the Arab nations have already stated that Israel should be wiped of the map, and many Arab states don't even recognize their nation as legitamite(or their right to exist).

We all remember the 6 day war don't we?

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How the war started...

Years before the war, hostilities between the Arab nations, and the Jews had already been at a high point. The Arab nations refused to accept the fact that Israel could be a Jewish state, and so, President Nasser of Egypt called for the destruction of Israel. At first, there were just attacks on civilians once and a while, but the attacks became more and more ferocious, until it came to Israeli villages being heavily shelled by Syrian troops from the Golan Heights. Israel had warned Syria, but Syria came to Egypt for help, and by then, Egyptian forces were packed into the Sinai Penninsula. Nasser then closed down the Atrait of Tiran, which was a very important trading link between Israel and the other countries of the world. Such an act was an act of war, but what they didn't know was that Israel would react with full force.

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<edited spelling again> :p

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Originally posted here by FrameWork
From reading your article here, you seem to almost sit on both sides of the fence.

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Quite right. I don't support any of the violence - but I support both sides in the conflict. I support Israels right to safety, and I support the Palestinians right to have their land back. At the time it's not likely that Israel will get their safety, or the Palestinians get Palestine back. It's a no-win situation where both parts stick to what they know - fighting and conflict, instead of what's right - peacemaking.

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It wouldnt be a bid deal to do a sucicide bomb on a soldier, but i made it clear in my post that these are targeted against women and children. There is no justification for killing women and children.

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Yes I know what you wrote, and in my example from Norway civilians was also killed. Another example of terror against the Germans was the bombing of German cities where thousands of civilians died. But, I agree with you, killing civilinans is wrong. What I find interesting is how we do accept it in some cases, but not in other.

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this terror is about one thing antisemitism plain and simple

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Here we disagree. I don't think the average palestinian would be an antisemit if it wasn't for the occupation. My thought is that the occupation has triggered antisemetism. Of course some Palestinians would be antisemit anyway - but there are racists in every society.

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We all remember the 6 day war don't we

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Well, the Palestinians (and also the Israelis) are certainly paying for that know.

I like your level headed responses proactive, you would make a great diplomat (and no that is not sarcasim, it's a compliment).

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Here we disagree. I don't think the average palestinian would be an antisemit if it wasn't for the occupation. My thought is that the occupation has triggered antisemetism. Of course some Palestinians would be antisemit anyway - but there are racists in every society.

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Fair enough, but how do you explain the vast antisitism running rampit across the Arab nations? This is not an isolated occurrence, it's wide spread, particularly in the Arab states.

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Originally posted here by FrameWork
I like your level headed responses proactive, you would make a great diplomat (and no that is not sarcasim, it's a compliment).

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Thank you! :)

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Fair enough, but how do you explain the vast antisitism running rampit across the Arab nations? This is not an isolated occurrence, it's wide spread, particularly in the Arab states.

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It's not only antisemetism, the hate is also aimed at America and Europe.In demonstrations the American and the Israeli flag is burnt side by side. And today I read in the paper that some Al-Qaida spokesman urges for suicide attacks in the whole wester world.

But what has triggered these opinions amongst ordinary arab people? I believe that the goverments of the arab countries are to blame.

Here's a little story: Let's pick an arab country where anti-western feelings are high and growing rapidly, like Saudi Arabia. For years misrule has brought people to their knees and they don't have many opportunites. Now they are angry, and the large masses of angry people are concerning the leaders. Of course it's illigal to criticise the goverment - so people aren't allowed to let their steam out. And they are not entitled to choose new leaders. Those who do criticise the goverment are jailed, and people are afraid to speak their mind. The leaders on the other hand are worried they aren't capable of controllling the anger much longer. Things are about to blow up into their faces. The leaders are very concerned.

So, then comes along a religious fundamentalist leader. He has the gift of speech, and he talks about the evil Israelis and Americans. The people listen and suddenly much of the anger is not directed at the goverment anymore. "Aha", says the leaders, "maybe this is our way out?!" So they decide not to do anything with the growing anger - after all it's not directed at them. The goverment, which has never allowed demonstrations before, decides to allow anti-western demonstrations. People are allowed to have opinions! But suddenly the anti-western anger comes out of hand, and terrorists start to blow up stuff in other countries. People now are so angry that they are even willing to commit suicide for the fundamentalist leader. The goverment leaders realise they have no choice to but accept what's happening. They can't control it, and if they try do something about, the anger will once again be directed agains themselves. The End.

Heh, neat story, eh? :) It might have some truth to it - at least this is what I believe is the reason for the anti-western feelings.

Your welcome. :p

And as for your story, it's 100% correct. In Saudia Arabia the problem is the "wahabis" and "wahabism" these guys preach hate 24 hrs a day in the local mosque's. Sooner or later this will backfire on the Saudis as it did just a few days ago with the bombing's in Riyadh. All i can say for them is you reap what you sow. :rolleyes:

Semite, a member of any of a group of peoples of southwestern Asia chiefly represented now by the Jews and Arabs, but in ancient times also by the Babylonians, Assyrians, Aramaceans, Canaanites and the Phoenicians.

How can a Palestinian, a Saudia Arabian, a Syrian be an anti-Semite?

the definition came right from Websters Collegiate Dictionary

Another one from dictionary.com

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1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible. A descendant of Shem.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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That's a good question. I've only heard the term "antisemitic" in relation to Jews. Probably someone got it mixed up along the way - and then other people started using the term within this new context. And suddenly the meaning of the word is changed.

Makes me think of the old hacker/cracker flame war. Some people claim that a hacker is the good guy and the cracker is bad - that there is a difference to the words. But to 99.8% of the worlds population "hacker" is a negative term for a person who breaks into other people's computer system. When all these people put this meaning in the term - well, the meaning is changed, and the hacker has gone bad. Probably lots of examples - all languages are evolving.

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Originally posted here by proactive
Thank you! :)

But what has triggered these opinions amongst ordinary arab people? I believe that the goverments of the arab countries are to blame.

Here's a little story: Let's pick an arab country where anti-western feelings are high and growing rapidly, like Saudi Arabia. For years misrule has brought people to their knees and they don't have many opportunites. Now they are angry, and the large masses of angry people are concerning the leaders. Of course it's illigal to criticise the goverment - so people aren't allowed to let their steam out. And they are not entitled to choose new leaders. Those who do criticise the goverment are jailed, and people are afraid to speak their mind. The leaders on the other hand are worried they aren't capable of controllling the anger much longer. Things are about to blow up into their faces. The leaders are very concerned.

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Lets look at this point. In a country like Suadi/Kuwait/Fromer Iraq you had a great hatred for Americans and a very oppressive government. In Jordan/Quatar non repressive government no great hatred for Americans. Now you could argue the repressive countries spur on a hatred for the west and that is partially true in some instances but lets look deeper.

What do the countries in group B have in common, They are self governed without western interference.

Group A? They have oppressive regimes that where put into power, and kept in power by the west. I think I can understand the hatred.

As for calling the Jewish state of Israel an invader that must be defeted/distroyed. I don't see how that is anti-Semitic.

Its kind of funny how the Israelis are trying to pull the racism card on this one seeing that unless you are orthodox Jewish you have no rights in Israel...none...A friend of mine is reformed Jewish and was working over there, he had to fly to the states to get married because Israel doesn’t allow any non-orthodox Jew to marry. He has moved back to the states after his wife got attacked for praying in public. This is the group calling racism, just because people are upset that they stole homes and land?

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Now I know what the usual line is that always comes from Arafat "We condem the killing of women and children." Yet this bastard does nothing to stop any of it. In my opinion Abu Mazin is nothing more than a puppet of Yasser Afrafat. The "homicide" bombers are so predictable, every time peace talks are about to resume, the bombings begin to happen. Now you might say that this is soley the work of the terrorist, I disagree. If Yasser Arafat wanted to stop these attacks, he damn sure could, and when they "symbolically" put these terrorist in jail there is a nice revolving door in the back for them to go through. I say expel Arafat, get someone on the Palestinian side who is willing to pursue these terrorist, and then let the peace talks begin.

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The actual situation seems to be that Mahmoud Abbas, while Prime Minister in name, does not have as much power as he would like. He does appear to be dedicated towards a peaceful resolution of the situation, however he is being held back by Arafat, who still retains influence in the Palestinian administration. What needs to happen for this road map to work is for Arafat to be completely removed and stripped of all power, give it all to Abbas and see if he can do something.

And the attacks against Israel have nothing to do with antisemitism (how did you come to that conclusion?). It's simply that Israel is occupying land which Palestinians believe they have rights to.

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The actual situation seems to be that Mahmoud Abbas, while Prime Minister in name, does not have as much power as he would like. He does appear to be dedicated towards a peaceful resolution of the situation, however he is being held back by Arafat, who still retains influence in the Palestinian administration. What needs to happen for this road map to work is for Arafat to be completely removed and stripped of all power, give it all to Abbas and see if he can do something.

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Well, we finally agree on something. ;)

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And the attacks against Israel have nothing to do with antisemitism (how did you come to that conclusion?). It's simply that Israel is occupying land which Palestinians believe they have rights to.

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How did you come to your conclusion powertoad?

Killing women and children and the rederic that you hear in the "street", come on, this is antisemitism.

Have you ever taken the time to read some of the transcripts of what is being said in the mosque's all over the Middle East? If you would take the time to read a few, i'm sure the antisemitism will be more than apparent. ;)

Here, take a look at this site and follow a few link's, it's more than convincing.

Arab Antisemitism Documentation Project

<edit-added link>

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Originally posted here by FrameWork
[B]

How did you come to your conclusion powertoad?

Killing women and children and the rederic that you hear in the "street", come on, this is antisemitism.

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And killing women and children asleep in there beds in an apartment complex is what casualties of war. It’s hypocritical to call the attackers anti-Semitic and not call the Israeli’s racesist.

Remember there are no civilians in Israel, they arm the populace and send them out to "settle" what little is left of Palestinian land. (lets not forget that every inch of Israel is Palestinian land.)

with the Palestinians you are dealing with the former middle class of the area. They had good jobs, good education ect. Then the Israelis came in and said this house is too nice for you we will take it...here have this tent...oh and your job, well you have no right to make money so you can't have that either...and forget about an education for your kids.

I assume most people here are middle to upper middle class, imagine if someone came into your home at gun point and kicked you out telling you that they where "settling" the area, and if you tried to resist the army would kill you. Then you are told that you get to go live in that tent city with no running water or electricity for the rest of your life ... oh and you can't have your job but can work as a slave laborer. If some one tired this on me I would shoot them and be called a hero, the Palestinians shoot them and are called terrorists.

For me there is no difrence between a Israli and a Nazi.

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And killing women and children asleep in there beds in an apartment complex is what casualties of war.

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Well, while on a military operation this is classified as "collateral damage", it's not meant to be insensitive but that is the name for it.

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Remember there are no civilians in Israel, they arm the populace and send them out to "settle" what little is left of Palestinian land.

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I have heard some dumb things in my life, but this statement takes the cake. You need to study reality a little more closely.

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For me there is no difrence between a Israli and a Nazi.

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This just shows your ignorance, and unwillingness to open your eyes to the truth of the matter. You sound like a Nazi with this obsurd comment. :fu:

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How did you come to your conclusion powertoad?

Killing women and children and the rederic that you hear in the "street", come on, this is antisemitism.

Have you ever taken the time to read some of the transcripts of what is being said in the mosque's all over the Middle East? If you would take the time to read a few, i'm sure the antisemitism will be more than apparent.

Here, take a look at this site and follow a few link's, it's more than convincing.

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The generally accepted definition of antisemitism is being anti-Jew or anti-Israeli people (even though that's not a proper definition of the term). The simple way that I came to my conclusion is that if any other group of people had been given the land Israel occupies now and kicked the Palestinians out, and treated the Palestinians the way the Israelis do, then the Palestinians would be running suicide bombers against them, regardless of their religion. It just so happens that the people who took their land are Israelis - this doesn't mean that Palestinians are antisemitic. Unlike Hitler, the Palestinians hate the Jews because of all this **** that has happened to them with occupation, settlers, displacement, etc. whereas the Nazis hated Jews simple because they were Jews. The latter is more definitely antisemitism, while the former is because of what the Israelis have done. All the statements on that page you mentioned are because of the occupation of Israel, they would be saying the same disgusting **** about whatever force occupied Israel.

I'm just trying to make a distinction between the Nazis (traditional antisemites), who had no justifiable reason to kill Jewish people, and the Palestinian people.

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Well, while on a military operation this is classified as "collateral damage", it's not meant to be insensitive but that is the name for it.

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Now, if the Palestinians referred to their victims as 'collateral damage' in their fight to take back Israel, people would be pissed off. But when it's sanctioned by a government it's ok.

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I assume most people here are middle to upper middle class, imagine if someone came into your home at gun point and kicked you out telling you that they where "settling" the area, and if you tried to resist the army would kill you. Then you are told that you get to go live in that tent city with no running water or electricity for the rest of your life ... oh and you can't have your job but can work as a slave laborer. If some one tired this on me I would shoot them and be called a hero, the Palestinians shoot them and are called terrorists.

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The sad thing is this is pretty much how it happened, yet most people believe that Israel is in the right. Might be worth putting yourself in a Palestinian's shoes (or lack thereof) for a minute.

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Now, if the Palestinians referred to their victims as 'collateral damage' in their fight to take back Israel, people would be pissed off. But when it's sanctioned by a government it's ok.

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You would have a terrific point, but this is not the case with the palestinian terrorist. They're primary target's are civilian's. ;)

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Originally posted here by FrameWork


You would have a terrific point, but this is not the case with the palestinian terrorist. They're primary target's are civilian's. ;)

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And the Isralies primary target isn't civilians? look if you have two groups of civilians killing each other you don't get to call one group terrorists and the other settlers. If someone is trying to stael your home or kill you you have a right to defend what is yours. This dose not make you a terrorist.


That’s because its the Israeli "civilians" that are "setteiling" their land, at gun point with the support of the government. Besides every "civilian" in Israel is in the reserves and has been in the military(its a requirement for citizenship). When a nation is attacking and not just their armed forces then their are no civilians.

as for the settler statement being stupid, do your own research next time.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/03/11/2910.html
http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001...on_aims_to.htm
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/3252947.htm
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/appe...ge_palesti.htm

The armed "settlement" of what little territory the Palestinians have left is happening.

And any one who wages a war of genocide agenst a people as the Israelis are doing, can and should be put in the same category as the Nazi's.

Israel was a mistake in the first place and its time for the UK and the US to admit the experiment has failed and dismantle it.

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The armed "settlement" of what little territory the Palestinians have left is happening.

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Your right, they are armed, but wouldnt you arm yourself if a terrorist was trying to kill your wife and children?

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For me there is no difrence between a Israli and a Nazi.

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And after a statement such as this, you have no credibility, and i'm not gonna waste my time responding to your warped statements again.

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Originally posted here by FrameWork


Your right, they are armed, but wouldnt you arm yourself if a terrorist was trying to kill your wife and children?

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And with this you just proved my point the Palistinians are not terrorists they are being attacked and protecting themself, their wives and children.They are not going in and stealing land and homes, they are just trying to keep what littel they have left.

Look bballad, it's obvious that we are both never gonna agree with one another. Let's just end the back and forth here, because it's not getting us anywhere. I say we just agree to disagree, deal? :cool:

I don't care if you guys are finished. :)

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Your right, they are armed, but wouldnt you arm yourself if a terrorist was trying to kill your wife and children?

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They're settling the Palestinian territory. Do you understand this, it seems like it's flying over your head. Bulldozer comes in and wipes out your house. Other people come in, build a house, and tell you to piss off. International support for this country which is doing this is quite strong, while no-one seems to really care about your plight. Of all people in the world who talk down about it, if the same thing happened to a bunch of Americans, you'd be doing whatever you could to fight this as well. You can grandstand cos you're sitting pretty right now, but I bet it'd seem a whole lot less like 'terrorism' and a whole lot more like 'freedom fighting' if you were on the receiving end of a forcible eviction.

Sure they're armed, but its because they took the land by force, and they know that they should be afraid of people who don't mind strapping on bombs to get the message across that the Israeli settlement policy is not right.

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I don't care if you guys are finished.

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No worries. :)

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They're settling the Palestinian territory. Do you understand this, it seems like it's flying over your head.

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No offense toad, but do you not understand that killing women and children is wrong, because it seem's to be flying over your head!



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I'm gonna just explain real quick the reason why your right on the fact that the Israeli's are taking the land from the Palestinians. You might not like it, but you will have to take that up with a different Person. From what i understand, the Bible is the one of the oldest book's explaining in detail, history, among other thing's correct (whether you believe or not) ?

This is a passage from that Book.

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"Say to the people of Israel, When you pass over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their molten images, and demolish all their high places; and you shall take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given the land to you to possess it. You shall inherit the land by lot according to your families; to a large tribe you shall give a large inheritance, and to a small tribe you shall give a small inheritance; wherever the lot falls to any man, that shall be his; according to the tribes of your fathers you shall inherit. But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of them whom you let remain shall be as *****s in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell." (Numbers 33:51-55 RSV)

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This is why the Israeli's are there, and this is what i have believed since i was a small child.


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There is also another verse i have alway's tried to never forget.

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Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed.

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Also taken from that Book.

Aside from the fact that they are on the right side of history, and i know they are good people, this is why i will support them until the day i die. :cool:

You may not like what i have stated here, and you might think i'm not being objective, but this is what i believe and now you know the reason for all of my post's concerning Israel.

If Israel is blessed, then why are the women and children being killed. Maybe they will receive their blessing in the hereafter.

I am a christian myself, I am not evangelical, I don't where it on my shirtsleeve. Though I find guidance in the Bible, I refuse to let it dictate my course of thought (after all that's why God gave me the power to reason). The Bible was written originally in Arameic (correct me if I'm wrong), translated to Hebrew, then to Ancient Greek, then to Latin, then to the other languages of the world. You don't suppose in that 2000+ years someone who was trying to market a religion would have popularized a translation? I'm not implying evil intent in the translating, I'm not implying deciet on the part of the translator, maybe just a different choice of a word or two along the a way.

Jimmy Carter visited Poland and gave a great speech. In it, he told the Polish people that Americans Loved the Polish people. Unfortunately a state department translator used the Polish word implying a more corporal love than a spiritual, emotional love. Hey, love is love right.

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No offense toad, but do you not understand that killing women and children is wrong, because it seem's to be flying over your head!

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JC- it's in response to the forced settlement, doesn't take a rocket scientist, I know it's wrong, but it's not a completely unprovoked reaction. It's not justified, but it's most definitely understandable.

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I'm gonna just explain real quick the reason why your right on the fact that the Israeli's are taking the land from the Palestinians. You might not like it, but you will have to take that up with a different Person. From what i understand, the Bible is the one of the oldest book's explaining in detail, history, among other thing's correct (whether you believe or not) ?

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Incidentally, why do I have to take it up with a different person? Are you not willing to defend your faith? Or is it simply that you have no logical arguments or reasons for literally interpreting a book which is thousands of years old and has been translated ad nauseam, when the interpretation in question indirectly supports bulldozing homes and displacing innocent people?

The Bible is the inspired word of God as set down by human beings. This does not guarantee authority or correctness on all subjects. I don't believe that God would be in favour of what the Israelis are doing right now. I do believe that God would be in favour of a peaceful resolution to this whole situation where the two nations can live side by side without suicide bombings and state-sanctioned eviction and settlement.

I guess this is the point where all discussion on the subject ends, because the opposing sides are unwilling to compromise on key issues - the pro-Israel side on the issue of the Bible's statement that the land can be forcibly taken, and the pro-peaceful resolution side on the issue of logic and reason.

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Incidentally, why do I have to take it up with a different person? Are you not willing to defend your faith?

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Look i'm not a righteous man toad, but i do believe and i want to be(not always easy). I have already defended my belief's, what i was saying is that i didnt speak those word's, God did. But i will defend the Jew's and what is said in that book until i die. I havent tried to impose any religion on you guy's, i was just stating that what the Bible say's about the Jew's, and their land, is where i draw my rationale about the entire subject.


I believe one thing, you guy's believe another......i'm fine with leaving it at that. ;)

fourdc - the OT was written in an early form of Aramaic, the NT was written in Classic Greek. Since then, other root languages used have included latin, hebrew, and many more, in fact translation is still continuing today.

And as everyone can attest, you lose quite a bit in the translation. Which is why I think it's fairly humorous that people try to "interpret" English/American versions of both Bibles including but not limited to the King James version which, in and of itself is quite pathetic having all of his majesties hang-ups and bigotries.

Nevertheless it seems so many people flock to hear what these "great" men have to say about a bastardized version of hearsay, etc. etc.

Like flocks of sheep to the slaughter.

so, what about abu mazin, not to get back on topic or anything.

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Originally posted here by KorpDeath
And as everyone can attest, you lose quite a bit in the translation. Which is why I think it's fairly humorous that people try to "interpret" English/American versions of both Bibles including but not limited to the King James version which, in and of itself is quite pathetic having all of his majesties hang-ups and bigotries.

Nevertheless it seems so many people flock to hear what these "great" men have to say about a bastardized version of hearsay, etc. etc.

Like flocks of sheep to the slaughter.

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Hey leave poor king jimmy alone it wasn’t his bigotries that came into that bible but the bishop of Canterbury. King James at the time was being courted by the catholic church who kept sending him alter boys, the King James version of the bible had some specifically anti-homosexual bits added to it targeted at him..

As for using the bible as a reason for Israelis right to the land. Remember the Palestinians have just as much claim through Islam and the Koran.

Im getting real tired of this, let me make it clear. Here's what the muslim's holy book states.

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“On the contrary, despite passages that are very hostile to the Jewish people, the Koran clearly concedes that Israel belongs only to the Jews.” He cites three verses in particular that confirm the Jewish right to the Land of Israel:

Moses said unto his people [the Israelites]: “Remember the good deeds that Allah has done for you, who appointed and gave you prophets and rulers, something he has not given to any nation in the world; and now, my people [the Israelites], enter the Holy Land which Allah has destined for you. Do not turn back because otherwise, you might be doomed and come to ruin." (Sura 5:20-21)

Then, we let the people [Israel], who were despised, inherit the eastern and western parts of the land which we had blessed. And the fair word of the Lord was fulfilled for the children of Israel because of their endurance. (Sura 7:137)

Then we said to the children of Israel: “Dwell in the land, and when the promise of the hereafter will be fulfilled, we shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations." (Sura 17:104)

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From: http://www.israeltoday.co.il/article...&ArticleID=118

This is what their very own religion teaches, it's awfully strange how they alway's skip past these verses.

um. I think you find that trend elsewhere as well.

The tendency to conveniently overlook aspects of an issue one wishes to ignore is widespread.

The Muslims consider themselves the decedents of Ishmihal, and as he was the eldest son they fell that they are the rightful inheritors of Israel not the Jews who where decnded from Abraham. So yes they fell that the Israelites should control the holy land, but they fell that they are the Israelites who should get that control. Remember christianity/judaism/muslum all originated with the same people, and is just the evolution of one religion.

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Originally posted here by bballad
The Muslims consider themselves the decedents of Ishmihal, and as he was the eldest son they fell that they are the rightful inheritors of Israel not the Jews who where decnded from Abraham. So yes they fell that the Israelites should control the holy land, but they fell that they are the Israelites who should get that control. Remember christianity/judaism/muslum all originated with the same people, and is just the evolution of one religion.

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But actually in the Koran it states that Israel was meant for the Jews and they should return to claim what is theirs.

Let me track down the actual passage but if you look you'll see it.

granted these religions were pretty much cut from the same cloth it's just that no one agrees on who is the "One God" and whether or not he had a son, etc. etc. etc. I think that is what sticks in their collective craw.(And what I mean by that is all of the religious zealots argue these points.)

If I remember my Koran correctly the holy land belongs to the Israilites, its been a few years and much like the bible there are diffrent versions. Now who are the isralites, the western european jews who invaded Palistine with the help of the British, or the Muslims who have lived there for centuries dateing back to before they where muslims? Yes it states that the holy land belongs to Isrialites, but in the muslims eyes that is them the sons of Ishmahail.

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Originally posted here by bballad
If I remember my Koran correctly the holy land belongs to the Israilites, its been a few years and much like the bible there are diffrent versions. Now who are the isralites, the western european jews who invaded Palistine with the help of the British, or the Muslims who have lived there for centuries dateing back to before they where muslims? Yes it states that the holy land belongs to Isrialites, but in the muslims eyes that is them the sons of Ishmahail.

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Here's one definition. (FIrst one I found, funny it's from a Catholic website..:))
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08193a.htm

Israelites
The word designates the descendants of the Patriarch Jacob, or Israel. It corresponds to the Hebrew appellation "children of Israel", a name by which -- together with the simple form "Israel" -- the chosen people usually called themselves in Old-Testament times. Foreigners and Israelites speaking of themselves to foreigners used the term "Hebrews", commonly explained as denoting those who have come from "the other side" of the river (the Euphrates). Another synonym for Israelites is the term Jews (Ioudaioi), especially used by classical authors, but also often found in Josephus and in the New-Testament writings. The object of the present article is distinctly geographical and ethnographical, leaving, as far as possible, the other topics connected with the Israelites to be dealt with in the article on JEWS AND JUDAISM, or in particular articles on the leading personages or events in Israel's history.

That's a popular definition. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's about the jist of it.