Point and click programming?

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Non-programmers could play a major part in developing complex computer programs, thanks to a new language developed by Sun Microsystems.

Ace is based on Sun's successful Java language and provides software development tools that give a graphical representation of computer code.

Manipulating the diagram on-screen automatically alters the underlying code. For example, moving a line connecting two boxes could change the point at which a piece of input data is entered into a program.

"Non-programmers can use Ace to build a skeleton of their application," says Ali Sayed, a member of the Ace project team. "But to make it completely working they [or a colleague] will have to write some minimal amount of code." Ace should also let non-experts modify a program after its core components have been written.

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Sounds interesting on the surface, but kind of frightening too. It would be a shame to see knowledge of BASIC, COBOL, the "C" family fade away in the same manner that old world craftmanship skills such as wood carving, glass blowing and stone masonery disappeared with the advent of the industrial revolution. Admittedly that is a remote possiblity, but it is a possibility all the same if ACE is successful at doing what it promises to do. What, pray tell, does the rest of the community think?

Original article here.

Man that's really scary....

Visual Studio already makes it easy enough for people to code, they need only minimal knowledge, this is going to make it even easier. If it includes a simplistic network programming base then their could be a huge rise in the number of script kiddies out their. Exploit ideas that are now released but without public code, could now be coded by individuals with almost no knowledge.

It's a scary turn in the future.

They are just trying to keep up with visual studio .net. Take the brains out of the skeleton work so that developers can devote their time to the business logic. I find it quite nice actually, as long as you are mindful of the skeleton code and it's quirks.

I doubt we will ever see the death of the more complex languages. With code quality becoming as big of an issue as it has. You just can't replace the elegance of a skilled programmer with such a cookie cutter approach.

It could have some great uses for companies who want to shave that payroll budget. Alowing people who have lesser knowlege of the more technical aspects to come up with simple solutions and still get paid as opperators. Not very promising for IT professionals.

'They' will always need 'us' though.

sounds like visual basic with a twist :P

While I am sure that lower level languages will always be around for the dedicated, there, or at least this is what we had drilled into our heads in CS classes, has been a trend towards the use of , and I might be wrong, but I think they called them CASE languages, where it is so high level that you never see the nitty gritty under the hood. VB was the closest I had ever seen to it, thanks for the interesting article. While things like VB and ACE are great things, you will always have those who need the extra bit of tweak that you get out of doing stuff in lower level languages (even down to assembly). I don't know if you have ever tried cross-compiling stuff, I know when I did, I could usually make the assembly program 20% or less of the original compiled one...

/nebulus

I don't like the idea of that. It's pretty annoying that soon people who have no idea how to program in C++ or other languages will be able to make their own programs. Sort of like all those 11 year olds who have their own website because of Yahoo and they put up a friends list and a guestbook all thanks to that website maker that Yahoo has. I just can't stand it, mainly because it takes no knowledge whatsoever.

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Originally posted here by nebulus200
While I am sure that lower level languages will always be around for the dedicated, there, or at least this is what we had drilled into our heads in CS classes, has been a trend towards the use of , and I might be wrong, but I think they called them CASE languages, where it is so high level that you never see the nitty gritty under the hood. VB was the closest I had ever seen to it, thanks for the interesting article. While things like VB and ACE are great things, you will always have those who need the extra bit of tweak that you get out of doing stuff in lower level languages (even down to assembly). I don't know if you have ever tried cross-compiling stuff, I know when I did, I could usually make the assembly program 20% or less of the original compiled one...

/nebulus

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you are really admitting VB as a great thing? How is a non cross-platform language "great"

VB was 'great' for its simplicity. Rather than having to mess around with code to capture the events, draw boxes, draw frames, etc, it is all added in by literally dropping it onto the screen and then detailing what events you want to capture and what to do when they occur. Since everything is so object oriented, you can in many cases add functionality to your program with a mouse drop. While I get what you are saying about cross-platform, that is not what I was commenting on nor was I saying that VB is the end-all-be-all, I was only commenting on the ease of use and its relative closeness to a CASE tool versus say something like C++.



/nebulus

Here's my 2 cents.

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Non-programmers could play a major part in developing complex computer programs, thanks to a new language developed by Sun Microsystems.[1]

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I don’t believe non-programmers will play any role in the development of complex computer programs. Current programmers have an in-depth understanding of the language they are using and the tools needed to solve the problem. A non-technical person is not going to have the abilities or knowledge to solve a complex programming problem.

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Manipulating the diagram on-screen automatically alters the underlying code. For example, moving a line connecting two boxes could change the point at which a piece of input data is entered into a program.[1]

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Am I to believe that ACE is able to enable a non-programmer to connect symbols, by a drag and drop interface, which would allow them to create a complex program. It would seem to me that this “developer” would need to have a decent understanding of algorithms and data structures. How many non-programmers do you know that that knowledge?

I have yet to see any drag and drop tools that will write out every bit of code need to create a worth while program. I don’t believe the code produced by a non-programmer will be efficient. When will the code be optimized? Will it be done by the non-programmer or the compiler? Good programmers spend years perfecting there craft and looking for ways to improve there code. It is my belief that non-programmers using a language like ACE will not be replacing the real programmers anytime soon.


Cited References

1) Knight, Will (2003). Code diagrams enable 'point-and-click' programming, NewScientist.Com.
Accessed May 22, 2003 http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993743

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Originally posted here by nebulus200
VB was 'great' for its simplicity. Rather than having to mess around with code to capture the events, draw boxes, draw frames, etc, it is all added in by literally dropping it onto the screen and then detailing what events you want to capture and what to do when they occur. Since everything is so object oriented, you can in many cases add functionality to your program with a mouse drop. While I get what you are saying about cross-platform, that is not what I was commenting on nor was I saying that VB is the end-all-be-all, I was only commenting on the ease of use and its relative closeness to a CASE tool versus say something like C++.



/nebulus

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<little kids voice> sniff but but but i dd don ddont liike it :( ::bah:: </little kids voice>

seriously though, its just like say.. maya, yet more widely used, and maya *is* cross-platform.. my question is, why does microsoft have to invent stupid **** ? :P

erm, maya? Too bad hardly anyone uses it. VB is great, especially if you understand what you are doing and how com works. I've built e-commerce systems that handle massive loads of traffic and pump through millions of dollars with it....and the real great part is that it doesn't take much time to build.

You do still have to know good coding practices with these new systems. They are simply taking out alot of the menial work that takes far too much time and can be automated. People can only 'point and click' program the simplest of apps and even then they will not work in a flawless manner without tweaking by someone who has half a clue. This is not 'bad news' for programmers unless you have no skills and cannot prove your own worth.

Like I said, I use these tools every day and like them alot. They take out alot of the brainless work that needed to be done to build applications and allow me to focus more on the important stuff (for the most part).

Yeah but theres a difference between drawing really beautiful forms in VB then codeing everything else as oppossed to just point & click apps that ask what you want then it builds things for you. Besides the increase of script-kiddies... what if companies start useing stuff like this while the more experianced coders are force to do grunt work like tech support and debuging other peaple's apps. Computers are already easy to use and are sometimes in the hands of morons... I don't see giveing these peaple the ability to make programs to be much of a good thing.

How many times must I say this....

hellooooo more experienced coder here who uses these tools to save him time while still taking the effort to produce quality code!!

Only people who would lose jobs to these tools are the ones who do not have skills.

There have been CASE tools around for *sooo* long now. Back in the 1980s, they were suggesting that programmers would be obsolete.

Yet we aren't.

There are a lot of tools provide graphical tools. The Rational Rose bunch take their pretty little UML diagrams, Java classes spit out the end. The VB bunch drag all their stuff on to their forms.

However, none of them actually reduces the amount of "real" programming required. When all the UML diagrams are drawn, all the VB forms dragged and dropped, code still needs to be written. And it is this, by which programmers are distinguished.

These tools just take a small amount of labour out of doing the tedious (i.e. easy) bits of programming, they don't make the actual work any easier.

Slarty

I'd agree with Slarty on this one

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These tools just take a small amount of labour out of doing the tedious (i.e. easy) bits of programming, they don't make the actual work any easier.

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Both methods i.e. coding by hand or drag and drop, have advantages as well as disavantages and the productive (and therefore highly employable programmer) will take the approach of being able to use both methods to quickly produce a decent programme (like Juridan says).
It only seems scary if you're not willing to adapt because lets face it in the real world we all know that an employer wants the programme you're lovingly crafting by hand yesterday.

Just my tuppence worth anyway

Z

thats flow diagram programming....I'v done some of that for Firmware Basic....it's ****...the code comes out all bloated and such...sure, you can do it without virtualy any knowledge...but you'r very limited in what you do, no where near as good as normal programming....oh well...
Ma 2 cents

- Noia

The other thing to realise is, that not all CASE techniques make programming faster.

The bits of software development which these tools automate are usually the really easy ones, hence don't take very long to do by hand anyway. If the method also makes writing the other pieces of code more difficult (which it usually does), then it can be counter-productive.

I really prefer a literate editor to enable me to hand-code things slightly faster, than some whizzy GUI to do a load of stuff for me, because:

- I don't trust the Whizzy GUI to get the code right in the first place
- I won't be able to maintain the auto-generated code (well, not as easily)
- I don't like things happening behind my back (it causes bugs)

i dont think i could ever trust my business and all my money into a program created appon a template. Without much knowledge, the program could make errors that would not cause a segfault at a certain point, but later contain many overflows or different problems.

mmm... slarty... yeah I agree ... I probably should have expanded upon my initial post cos you're thinking along the same lines I am. The point I was trying to make is similar to the thread not long ago about 'who writes HTML by hand' these days. There was something of a discussion of the merits of using dreamweaver over notepad... dreamweaver enabling the designer to concentrate on the artistic tone of the website easily without having to know HTML in depth... but similarly it's useful if you do know HTML cos you can tweak the rubbish that a WYSIWYG usually generates. A similar point exists with this topic.... I'm not necessarily saying that these tools are a wholly good thing mind you, just that it may be as well to be reasonably familiar with both methods to keep oneself in gainful employment. But I take your point about not trusting the code - and I wouldn't disagree with you either.

Z

When I need to pump out a quick lil app.. I always use VB... it might not be as clean but it definately saves me time.

I have to sit and wonder....

I wasn't around when c/c++ broke out onto the scene (wasn't old enough). But how many assembly programs made the same argument. You go from having to do everything yourself langauges that compiled and interpret the machine code for you and then you get programming languages like c/c++ that have their header files, so that the nasty part of the coding is already written and defined for you saving you time. When you look at it VB and now ACE are no different, you still have to do work.. The type of work you have to do has changed.

IceStorm commented on non-programmers and then in the same paragraph changed this to non-technical people. There is a difference here. I am a non-programmer. I could claim I'm a program because I code in like every major langauage, but in many of them I'm not efficient or very skilled. Doesn't mean I'm non-technical. I'm a very technical person. Solving complex programming problems won't really be a problem if it's all point and click. How do I make it do this? Well I drag this box over here and drop it. I know several "programmers" who can't see the solution in their head. They flow-chart it and code it and debug it and test it again. Where as other's can see what to do, they just have to figure out what code to apply to it. I'll give you an example. My friend is redoing his website (all php w/ mysql). He messages me when he can't get something and tells me the problem. In less than 5 minutes usually I can give him a solution. I won't know the correct code to do it, but I'll know how to solve it. If all I had to do was point and click, I'd have no problem, even now I can just browse for the code to do what i want and then manipulate the commands. Also he mentioned Algorithms and Data types.. Again. wouldn't be needed. If I have a box that will hold numbers and a box that will hold letters and a box that will hold both and a box that will hold 1 letter... and so on... I know what needs to go into that box, so i just select the one I need. That's why it's point and click, they won't have to define data types. As for algorithms... It's just another word for a step-by-step problem solving procedure. Someone who doesn't know how to problem solve, prolly shouldn't be working. So they won't be able to develop they algorithm in code, they don't have to, they just point and click.

I've thought about this more since my last post, and from a security point of view, I don't like the idea of anybody being able to code. However from a business owner's point of view. I love it. The ability to easily and quickly develop small apps is great. Say you are running a focus group, suddenly you need a program to handle the data from the group, instead of the person having to contact their IT Dept, or an outside company. If all employees are trained (a small seminar on basic use of the GUI and then a few people with intensive training (i'm guessing it wouldn't take a whole late if it's all point and click) and boom, your program is ready and no one had to wait for it.

Everyone keeps refering to "tools" for coding, like anything else you need the right tools for the job. I would'nt use ASM to write a wep app, and I would'nt write a graphics driver in VB. (I wouldnt use COBOL for ....um what do you use COBOL for? :))You can never eliminate the lower level languages- what would all the higher level ones be written in??

Regards,
-Maestro

I see a spot opening for young crackers, to accomplish a popup box and call theirselves coders. I see them taking the new found confidence and pushing it to illegal limits much like those children today. Downloading garbage software, things like trojans. With no real knowledge of how they work, why they work the way they do, and how these things they are doing is possible. They just like to believe that they are in control of more than what surrounds them, when in fact they control nothing more than a GUI. Take this away and you have children again. Take it away from a real coder, and he builds his own.

This point can be argued, and without doubt; it will be. This is just my opinion...

i just realized... isn't the title of this thread an oxymoron ? :)

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Originally posted here by er0k
i just realized... isn't the title of this thread an oxymoron ? :)

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Yup, and so is the ID10t who started it......

:P

I do like the simplicity offered by "Point and Click" programming, but for me it tends to take the fun out of programming. Programming on your own tends to give you a sense of pride at having truly created something, through your own skills. The new trend is creation through the skills of others. It almost seems like forgery.

I have some experience usig a CASE tool http://www.genexus.com called genexus, it is very powerful generates apps ina C, VB, java even C#. It is pretty much point and click programming. But it still has its mistakes generating code sometimes which need to be fixed by hand coding, which means even if you create an app using a CASE tool programming knowledge is still needed.

Just a Tangent; ne one here know ALGOL?

I believe that visual programming languages are nasty. For example i've studied at school in this year visual fox. it was awfull. every time i sit in my desk and i looked on the walls cause i wasn't interested. so i went to my informatics classes a year for nothing