ongoing AP abuse

Folks, it's been brought to my attention again and again that there are some folks out there using the AP system to mercilessly harass and intimidate other members. Some are going to far as to team up with other members to neg folks, and some have created several user names and are negging with each of those user names. We know, as we've compared the IP addresses of said posters. This will not be tolerated. Going forward, if we catch anyone using two user names to neg another user, or ganging up to neg users as a team, they will be instantly banned and removed from the system, and will thus lose any APs they have.

The AP system was designed to allow the community to regulate and moderate itself. Overall, it works well, but there are some folks who are acting childishly, and basically acting out as they would never do in RL. This site is here to bring together folks who want to learn and share their knowledge about security, and chat with like-minded friends. Please, let's keep it fair, and quit the abuse of the AP system. Those of you who are doing it know who you are, and so do we. Nuff said.
Thanks,
intmon

intmon,

At last!!!, this AP system abuse will end once and for all. I agree 100%, well done!!!

And as you say... nuff said.

DKRR

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Originally posted here by intmon
. . . . . .or ganging up to neg users as a team, they will be instantly banned and removed from the system, and will thus lose any APs they have. . . . .

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Excelent. Thank you intmon. :) By the way. . . . how are you going to tell that someone is teaming up with others to neg/ban a member? Members can't see who gave what points to who. It may appear that there are more people "working togather" than there really are. What are your thought on this? :)

A quick question why havent the multiple accounts been removed ?

And would it be possible for you to list these "Alliance" members so we will know who not to trust any more.

RogueSpy,

Personally, i think there's no point in listing the "alliance" members if they will be banned. ;)

As less problems we have, as better this site will be. :)

DKRR

Well. . . they might not be banned if they quit their silly **** right now. But I would still like to know who they are.

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Originally posted here by RogueSpy
Well. . . they might not be banned if they quit their silly **** right now. But I would still like to know who they are.

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Don't you think that might cause additional problems Rogue. Some people might set out on a revenge trip and the next thing you know, the neg's are flying all over the place.

Cheers:

RogueSpy,

Oh!!! you mean the members that nowadays are allied, good point then, i'd like to know who they are too ;) but i don't think JUPM wants more problems here, and so, i think they're giving everyone a second chance.

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Some people might set out on a revenge trip...

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DJM, mmm... i don't think so, unless someone don't understand english, intmon was really clear in post #1.

DKRR

you will know as lists of people start getting banned and not because they have to many negative antipoints.

The system was "cleaned out" once before of aliance people, but obviously they have come back.

jupman> don't forget to watch for patterns in positive antipoints either. When someone has 50 posts and 7 green dots and never posted anything of value, its kind of obvious that therer is something going on there also.

I had thought about that too. . . after I posted. Well. . . . hrmmmm. . . . oh well. I say the sure way to fix this whole mess is to assign the Antipoint sender's name to the message. No matter if they type anything in the comments box or not. This will alltogather stop this stupid ****. People will not neg unless they need to. Right? Or am I just dreaming again? ;)

I agree with roquespy. I think we should know who is giving us positive points or negative points.

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Originally posted here by RogueSpy
I had thought about that too. . . after I posted. Well. . . . hrmmmm. . . . oh well. I say the sure way to fix this whole mess is to assign the Antipoint sender's name to the message. No matter if they type anything in the comments box or not. This will alltogather stop this stupid ****. People will not neg unless they need to. Right? Or am I just dreaming again? ;)

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I agree and tried suggesting that.

See: http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=243176

But, it sometimes seems like the new administration doesn't get around to giving us feedback on our feedback.
Oh well.

Even though I haven't been here long I feel the need to add my $.02 I think that adding someone's handle to pos/neg assingments would be a good thing but in the end will create more problems than useful because of the same ppl who have these "aliances" would be the childish ones who would look for retribution. The AP system, if we all act like adults, is a great idea but unfourntatly the day will never come were we will not have abuse of it. What I don't understand is the chronic need for some ppl to see 7 little green dots by there name. Is there some super-site benfiet that I am unaware of?


hjack

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Originally posted here by hjack
Even though I haven't been here long I feel the need to add my $.02 I think that adding someone's handle to pos/neg assingments would be a good thing but in the end will create more problems than useful because of the same ppl who have these "aliances" would be the childish ones who would look for retribution. The AP system, if we all act like adults, is a great idea but unfourntatly the day will never come were we will not have abuse of it. What I don't understand is the chronic need for some ppl to see 7 little green dots by there name. Is there some super-site benfiet that I am unaware of? hjack

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Actually. . . . The "Alliance" would end if this was emplimented. People would be afarid to hand out points in fear of retaliation. . . . unless the negative points were for a good reason. . . . and that the sender dosn't harass them with their comments. On to your last comment. . . . when you get up to 11. . . you get discounts of antiburgers and anti shakes. ;)

:firedevil

As gratifying as it would be to me to see a list of people who are currently involved in these activities, I don't think it is going to happen. Had they been considering such an action, it would have probably already taken place, or no warning would have been given. There doesn't neccesarily have to be an "alliance" for the entire site to react negatively to someone. As I understand it, this is their warning to clean up their behavior, a "second chance" so to speak. However, I'm quite sure you're going to see people banned...they won't be able to resist it. After JP started banning people the first time, you would have thought it would have stopped...but it didn't. And then, not only did it continue, but the people he banned for it complained mightily that they were being mistreated, DESPITE the fact that JP had their information sitting in front of him when he did the banning. Obviously they aren't people of great intelligence who learn their lessons quickly. :) IMO, you will find out who was doing it IF JupM follows thru with what they've said. It may settle down for a little while, but it will start again.


On the other hand, it would be quite gratifying after some of the accusations that have been flying about me and a few others lately to have that list published so that the entire site could see our names are not on it. :flip: :D

Rogue, when I refered to the ppl who are in these "alliances" I meant the ppl of like mind who would and are in these. Not just the current ones but the ones of like mind that either have or haven't become members yet. For every 10 ppl here, 1 of them is one of these. Its a shame that I graduate high school and finally think I am getting away from the "clicks" and come to find them here. Guess some ppl never really grow up eh?


hjack

How sad . . . . but very true indeed. When I first came here. . . it wasn't this bad. Times will only get worse as the computer age grows. More Crackers, Viri, worms, trojans, etc. . . . . you name it.

I hate people who twink, especially when it's got to do with something like Antipoints. As useless as they are, they are a pretty good indication of how helpful you've been to others and your dedication.

It's pretty sad.

I do like RogueSpy's idea, though. I say implement it if possible. The whole idea of anonymous points is dumb. Ask gore, it's like getting slapped in the back of the head for doing something useful, a freakin' tutorial on processors.

P.S. For those of you who don't know what the term "twinking" means. In online games like Everquest you'd build up one character just to have him turn around and start newbie characters with all the cool stuff it took forever to get ahold of. In essence you'd have a newbie with all of the finest stuff. Sound familiar?

I'm just happy something is going to be done here...and maybe flagging their IP will help a little too...I hope

I will believe it when I see it.

If I may point out something.. While dealing with those who have similar IPs there are two things that come to mind:

a) large institutions use NAT whereby multiple users have a single address

b) proxies will hide those truly determined to do what they want.

It's not to say that JUPM's intention is wrong nor should they not try it but I think members should be aware it may not be a total solution.

Yep. U are right Msmittens. If these people are hell bent on making our lives miserable. . . there is nothing we can do to stop them.

Note that I'll need help from you all to let me know when the unfair negging or apparent ganging up is happening, and to whom. I frequent this forum each day, but have many other sites to run, and can't spend as much time as I'd like here. Also, realize that I won't be able to respond to everyone who PMs me, but I do read every PM, and will do my best to fulfill my part of the bargain.

As for showing the names of those who assign APs, I think that's a great idea. I'll see what I can do to make it happen.

Concerning how we'll be able to tell who's ganging up with whom, that'll be more difficult, and will take more time, but it's certainly doable. As we all know, nothing that's posted online is totally secure, and once written, is there forever for the most part. It just takes a little tracking down.
Thanks,
intmon

Thank you intmon. :)

Right on.

I'm happy 2 see that in the short period of time intmon has agreed and decided to implent a recommendation that all of us have agreed might be a good idea. I was kind of worried when I hear that JP was leaving and selling antionline to a "corporation". I really expected everything to go downhill. Glad to see its not.



hjack


PS. *gripe* Whats up with the mircosoft ad's? *gripe*

w00t w00t.

At first, i was very cautios about JM taking over, i thought too much like a buisiness and predicted chaos. I was very wrong. I see that JM is doing an excellent job, yes, some things take time, but they are here for US, US, and only US. I find it excellent that something is being done, and so drastically too. I would like to use this occasion (post) to say special thanks to the new site admins, for everything they have done for us, everything they are doing, and everything they will do in future. Im not really bothered about seeing who the peeps were that screwed around abusing the AP system.

Intmon, you also mentioned about getting some help from our side. Last night for the first time i followed the link "how to become a profiler", and i was impressed. Im sure that JP will give you more insight than he gave us on that site, and its truly a powerful way of getting information. I for one want to go into the "profiler" direction a bit deeper now, it has opened my interest. I got fired a short while back, so i have much more time now with my new job (just a simple pc tech), and i will use this new time i have now for a come back to AO. I havent posted any tutorial for a long time now, nor have i posted anything directly security related since 1 month now. I was too busy getting a new job. This will change now. In my free time im dedicated to security as is, and i will keep it that way.

One more thing, MSM, greekgoddess are still waiting for their "pink dots", and gore and I are still waiting for our blue ones. Shrekkie prefers "buggers" for his ;) Is that doable?

Hehehe, oh well, thanx again for doing what your doing.

Cheers.

one way of slowing down drive-by AP neg's..

Cheers

keep up the work intmon, im shoure i speek for most if not all the members hear in AO when i say well all do our best to try and help you...

holy ****, i do believe someone just murdered the English language..

Murder! Murder, i say!!

intmon, we are at your mercy. for too long all the AP abuse has been going on an it's high time it was stopped. many members made very valid points, RogueSpy, DKRR, debwalin....but i think as a concensus we are all pretty happy the culprits will be stopped. Except for those culprits tho...

Believe it or not somebod'ys negged me twice in Tech Humor for only posting one line.

I think some people take the antipoint system to far.

As korpdeath already said, yea i got two negs on my processors tutorialm one was blank and dropped me about 45 points and another said "you of all people should know i already knw this" well if you already knwo it dont ****ing read it *******.

also

http://www.antionline.com/showthread...811#post630811

Was there a reason i got negged for that too? its another blank one of course, so inmon, what we gunna do about all this? You going to boost me back up the 70 points i lost for two posts? a tutorial and my post about OSs i dont think deserved a neg, and since this post is about people being negged unfairly and abusing the system i think i deserve my points back.

Anti Points may be useless to most of you but I for one am DAMn PROUD to be a top ten AP earner. Sorry if i actually care about this site.

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Was there a reason i got negged for that too? its another blank one of course, so inmon, what we gunna do about all this? You going to boost me back up the 70 points i lost for two posts? a tutorial and my post about OSs i dont think deserved a neg, and since this post is about people being negged unfairly and abusing the system i think i deserve my points back.

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Most everyone believes that 90% of the negs they get are 'unfair' - not saying these are justified, but surely everyone looks at their reds and goes 'wow what a *****' or something like that. Sure the admins could go through all your complaints about unfair neggings but there would be way too many to bother dealing with, and when its only on a small scale you should probably just live with it. IMHO bannings and point adjustment should only happen when it looks like a concerted and/or continued effort at negging a particular person, or when multiple accounts are used to boost a single member's point total.

Easy way to think about it is how many greens you get that are unfair. I know when I first got here I posted something in tech humour that bumped me up about three dots, and it turned out later that it had already been posted. If you're going to whinge about unfair negs, then it should work both ways. Just something to put it in perspective.

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Originally posted here by powertoad5000

Most everyone believes that 90% of the negs they get are 'unfair' - not saying these are justified, but surely everyone looks at their reds and goes 'wow what a *****' or something like that.

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Personally, I understand that sometimes I say stupid things. We all do. What bothers me most is not the fact that I was given a neg for a post, but the comments (or lack thereof) that come with the negs. If you're going to neg me, fine. Just tell me why and don't be a jerk about it. There's no need for "Shut up *******" or "haha yeah. goto hell."

P.S. I don't mean "you" as in "Powertoad," just a general term. :D

intmon AKA the gangbuster, well done. :) . All of you childish point assigners, watch out now.

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Originally posted here by 11001001


Personally, I understand that sometimes I say stupid things. We all do. What bothers me most is not the fact that I was given a neg for a post, but the comments (or lack thereof) that come with the negs. If you're going to neg me, fine. Just tell me why and don't be a jerk about it. There's no need for "Shut up *******" or "haha yeah. goto hell."

P.S. I don't mean "you" as in "Powertoad," just a general term. :D

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My question here is...what can be done about it? As you know, you really can't do a "blank" AP assignment now...you have to at least hit the spacebar. I don't know if that can be altered, but it seems like there are so many ways it could be gotten around...wouldn't you have to exclude every possible combination of unacceptable answers? And how would you go about doing that? You could make it so all curse words were unacceptable, but then what are you going to do about garbage, I.E. "asdfsadfa" or something like that. It seems to me that you've created quite a bit of work for someone to code that, and yet you're still going to be able to get around it. Granted maybe they wouldn't be able to curse at you, but IMO (and I think it's what the rest of you are saying too) it's not so much being cursed at...I don't care about that...but the fact that there is no constructive criticism, it's just a "drive-by" negging so to speak. But I really don't know how you'd change that.

And I'm not being a bitch...everytime I open my mouth in disagreement, I get slammed with that...I'm just pointing out flaws that I see, and opening the floor for suggestions I haven't thought of. :p

I think people forgot why antipints were annonomous. By putting peoples names with them it will encourage alliances. If someone gives you a negative antipoint and you disagree with it (wether you deserved it or not) you are going to want retribution. Well, if that person has more points then you, then you are gonna see what you can do to get bac at them. I don't care if people get retribution on me or not because i don't give a crap about antipoints, but it is going to happen. If I feel someone deserves negative points I am going to assign them. And i will guarantee that some people will disaggree with me giving them and they will want to get me back for it. To me its no big deal, but some people will be upset by it. And a lot of people will stop assigning antipoints because they will be afraid of retribution. If you give out to many greens you get the big out of balance message so you gotta give out reds. But if you give out reds then you get reds yourself. So the ap system will just become obsolete.

If you are going to include peoples names, you might as well delete the system all together because it won't be long before its unused anyway.

souleman, if there are less APs assigned one way or another because a username/IP is displayed next to them, I don't think anyone here will suffer for it. And there will be a lot less ganging up because we'll all know who's been assigning what--I'm not sure what you mean about this encouraging alliances? Those who feel strongly about a post will still be able to make their feelings known. IMHO, it comes down to personal responsibility, or lack thereof.

I realize it's not a perfect solution, but right now it's something that can help fix the current AP problems. If it doesn't work out, nothing is written in stone, so we can always change it later down the road. Thoughts?
Thanks,
intmon