S&DofAS

Parents: White Teacher Should Not Teach Black History

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2360897/detail.html#

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Using a white teacher at Oberlin High School would send the wrong message to black students, said A.G. Miller, an associate professor of American and African religious history at Oberlin College.

"The message is that we are not concerned about the importance of your historical background ... that that is less important than a schedule conflict," said Miller, whose three children graduated from Oberlin High School.

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Ahh! Excuse me but isn’t that the ideal that America is supposed to be striving for. That is, it DOESN'T matter what your historical background is, your country of origin or your ethnicity.

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Jaqui Willis, a black Oberlin parent, said the teacher is a role model and that removing him from the class would be detrimental to students.

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He's not being removed from the school!!!

Maybe children without the benifit of having American slaves in the family tree could also benifit from exposoure to what is apparantly an extraodinary teacher and human being.

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Phyllis Yarber Hogan, a member of the Oberlin Black Alliance for Progress, said a white teacher wouldn't be well-suited to teaching students about subjects like slavery.

"When you talk about slavery, students need to understand it is not our fault," she said. "Our ancestors did nothing wrong to be enslaved.

"How do you work through that when the person teaching it is the same type of person who did the enslaving?"

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I guess using Hogan's guidelines teachers of early American history would have to prove their membership in the Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution before they could teach the subject for only they could understand the operession the colonists experianced. When the building of the Trans-continental railroad is taught a person of Chinese extraction would have to be brought in Etc., Etc.

Now there is valid reason for keeping this teacher in place. Seven years experience in teaching the subject. That would make him a very valuable asset in that classroom but the above statements quoted are as stupid as any I’ve ever heard and maybe, just maybe, this teacher would like to broaden his teaching experience by moving on to something else.

This is so outrageous I can hardly respond!!!! :mad: Sadly, I can say I'm not surprised.

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"How do you work through that when the person teaching it is the same type of person who did the enslaving?"

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Work through that????? My God!!! Boo hoo! Tell me....how DOES one work through such a thing??? I'd try to answer but I'm still trying to work my way through therapy over the guilt, shame, and confusion caused by knowing that there have been white slaves. :confused:

Law suites would be flying at the near mention of the same idea the other way around. This is exactly the kind of thing that keeps racial tensions high. :mad:

I think a partial quote from an Eagles tune will fit nicely right about now...

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You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass

Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it

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Marvelous!

So perhaps we could take this to the next level:

Black only schools. White only schools...

But why stop there,

White only busses. Black only busses.

If I think about this a little longer I could devise a whole society based on racial segregation...

Something's nagging me from the back of my mind....

Can't think what bloke stuck at the top of column in Trafalgar Square could have to do with my vision for the perfect society though.

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Originally posted here by steve.milner
Marvelous!

So perhaps we could take this to the next level:

Black only schools. White only schools...

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Well there is now a gay only school in new york...and Ihave been hearing rumbelings from the extream side of the black power movment to restart segragation.

This is absolutly nuts, your race has no effect on your ability to teach any subject.


On the slavery point, this is something I am getting sick of....you cannot dump all the blame on white amreicans, perhaps we should look at africa and see who was doing the selling of slaves to the Europeans and later american slave traders.

True Bballad but at the same time it was the South Africans that is why there is such a strong hold of strong White's in South Africa.

Now UhHM

Here we go.

Now you want to get rid of all the problems that we are having. Simple I have an answer, why don't we just segregate the country I mean why stop with cities . This is How I see it everything west of Winnipeg goes Whites and eveything else to the east goes to blacks so what forget about the fact that there are other races in this place. Now if you don't like that one I got a better one for you this is what you do. You take all the people in the country that are not pure 100% there race and kill them. If your not pure then you don't deserve to live, come on. Can't you see it mass Genocide. So bad Hitler would be proud.


I just don't understand how something so insignifcant as your race can be so Important. To some people.

That has actually made me mad.

Come on people we should be getting over this by now. I mean damn isn't 400 yrs long enough. Damn!

Oh yeah and if it is offensive for Whites to teach slavery what about, real American History. How the Indians got ****ed.

Whizkid2300

I have a headache.

Just so everyone know the aforementioned paragraph was from an extreme view. I do not think any of that would be wise.

Whizkid2300

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Originally posted here by bballad
This is absolutly nuts, your race has no effect on your ability to teach any subject.

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You're right, this is nuts - All of this is stupid.

Let the teachers teach, regardless of race.

If they're no good them, then sack them.

I know we aren't going to change the ingrained opinions of people, but you would have thought that those people in positions of power - Elected politicians, school governors & heads would have the sense enough to put their individual predjudice to one side and just get on with things.

These people are meant to be blessed with at least a little intellgence, right?

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Elected politicians, school governors & heads would have the sense enough to put their individual predjudice to one side and just get on with things.

These people are meant to be blessed with at least a little intellgence, right?

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...not if they are liberals.

The sad problem is that there are still text books in the south that reinforce this:
"When you talk about slavery, students need to understand it is not our fault," she said. "Our ancestors did nothing wrong to be enslaved. "
I've even heard of one that says that the blacks were set free to govern themselves but they screwed it up sooo badly that they had to be brought back down again... It's just my feeling that wounds can't heal until they stop being reopened.

A people's history is a powerful thing, particularly when reinvented and used against them. I know this isn't likely the case in Oberlin, but as it is in other parts of our great and accepting nation, don't you think parents might be a little over protective of their children...

The issue tha they brought up was not a qualitive judgment "good enough" it was a mater of sensitivity. You figure that the guy making a stink is a college professor in the field, meaning he has dedicated his life to studying that field, that he would get passionate about his childrens education, and as he has had three pass through that school perhaps he noticed somthing not to his liking.

Anyway, there are more sides than any newspaper/media outlet is going to investigate and evenhandedly report back to us, and therefore I won't pass judgement.
Dhej

After watching a "debate" concerning this subject on Fox News today, I have come to the conclusion that racism is in part being kept alive by the very organizations set up to oppose it. If you think about it....if there were no racism (and I hope to live to see that day) we have NO USE for the NAACP.

My line of thinking revolves around statements made by an NAACP lawyer. The man was positively vehement about having first hand experience with racial profiling and racial discrimination as prerequisites for being qualified to teach black history. His line of thinking was that to teach black history one must be intimately aware of what it is like to be a black person today....wtf does that have to do with history??

If we follow this line of thinking, then only a native of France can teach french....since one must be french to identify with the french experience and be effective as a teacher.

Anyone care to tell me where I can find a NUMBER with it's teaching certificate? After all, only a number can be effective as a mathmatics instructor because PEOPLE can't relate to being a mathamatical unit and cannot teach the subject.

As a nation of educated, informed people we sure have some shining examples of ignorance that hopefully will remind us of just how far we have to go as a society.

mg32,

conservatives have no bias's? That's a stretch!

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Originally posted here by fourdc
mg32,

conservatives have no bias's? That's a stretch!

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I was refering to the "at least a little intelligence" bit. ;)

Dhej I don’t believe there are schools in the south with books like that, school books are under state and federal regulation. So if and entire state thought that a racist book was proper the feds would prevent it and ive never heard what you say you’ve heard said. Lincoln freed the slaves in the hopes they would rise up against the south “.” That’s what they teach in school and that’s the truth

“A people's history is a powerful thing, particularly when reinvented and used against them.”


I couldn't agree more and thats exactly whats happening to most americans today
What kind of history are we writing for tomorrow?


whizkid2300

“True Bballad but at the same time it was the South Africans that is why there is such a strong hold of strong White's in South Africa.”

The South Africans kept slaves like every other nation on earth including the black nations.. They didn’t export them

http://www.museums.org.za/iziko/slavery/

This website tells the story of slavery at the Cape of Good Hope.
Unlike the Transatlantic slave trade that exported slaves from Africa, this slave society existed in Africa

http://batavia.rug.ac.be/slavery/Old_Slave_Lodge.htm

· only VOC institutional enterprise which had its own ships dedicated to the importation of African slaves along the East Coast of Africa e.g. Mocambique & Madagascar;
· slaves were imported from West Coast of Africa initially, thereafter from India and Batavia, and later from Madagascar, and Mocambique, etc.;


During the early to mid sixties in this county, the SDAR (sons and daughters of the American revolution) and other white self interest groups lobbied for “more” of America than every one else. They thought they were entitled to special privileges Their actions were declared un-American and a stop was put to it.

I think were seeing the same kind of thinking coming from, what im calling “the sons and daughters of American slavery”. Albeit their claims to family longevity in this country are true. Some dating back to the early colonists and in some circles this does grant status, they like the sdar do NOT deserve more of America than every one else.

Yes parents can be unreasonably over protective which is why society has rules to protect the children of others.

mg32,

You're right about the intellligence part. I've discovered that anyone that defines him/herself as a liberal or conservative, democrat or republican as a person who couldn't think for themself. Every human being has the ability to reason for him/herself to lock oneself by a political ideaology defined by others is to deny that ability.

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Originally posted here by allenb1963
The man was positively vehement about having first hand experience with racial profiling and racial discrimination as prerequisites for being qualified to teach black history. His line of thinking was that to teach black history one must be intimately aware of what it is like to be a black person today.

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What an absolute crock.

So to be able to teach the history of the black death in Europe you need to have suffered from it yourself and know from first hand experience what it was like to hear the peel of the bell and the cry of 'Bring out dead!"

That guy needs a good slap.

Ok I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but I start reading, and you know what Allen is about as close as it is going to get. Now I will first say tebob what is the name of every teacher and every school Birnmingham Alabama. I doubt that you know. Why because neither you nor I, nor the federal gvt. for that matter can keep track of every school and every teacher. Now I will say that racist books in Public schools you beat your ass there are. I am willing to beat money on that I am from Cleveland so I don't know much about the South but I have had friends tell me stories abou there teachers and things that they, have mad them read and do in school. Tebod so you know, Schools fall under state gvt. not federal. So if you are in a racist state and something goes up what is going to happen. Please tell me that you guys don't think the Alabama isn't racist that is an entirely different story all together. Steve I have to aggree with you on lthre thing about that Lawyer needing a slap they usually do. Lawyers are there to get paid hsi own morals in this situation don't come in his job comes in. Now rathere or not the NAACP is still tryig to keep racism alive that is to be seen. I am not sure I would no tdoubt it though. For that matter we could also say that the KKK is trying to get rid of racism think about it if there are only white people in America then there is not Racism. It is all objective.

Whizkid2300

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Originally posted here by mathgirl32


I was refering to the "at least a little intelligence" bit. ;)

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Conservatives more intelligent...that’s a stretch. :rolleyes:

Now don't get me wrong, both groups have their morons, but one group has a high population of college professors, the other has a high population of good old boys.
:D

Lets try not to politicize this too much as it is mostly a racism issue (on the part of the parent and NAACP), and both sides have shown that they can be equally bigoted regardless intelligence.

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Originally posted here by Tedob1
Dhej I don’t believe there are schools in the south with books like that, school books are under state and federal regulation. So if and entire state thought that a racist book was proper the feds would prevent it and ive never heard what you say you’ve heard said. Lincoln freed the slaves in the hopes they would rise up against the south “.” That’s what they teach in school and that’s the truth

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There as a time I would have agreed with you on this point, but the fight over the confederate flag on state houses, Trent Lott, and the love of all things Dixie has shown me that institutional Racism is alive and well in the south. Hell some guy was just lynched in Florida for dating the white police chefs daughter (ruled a suicide the man some how tied his hands behind his back and hung himself from a tree.). Raciest text books wouldn't surprise me.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, The wisdom of MAN is as irrelevant as an opinion that
empowers a certain breed of *******S that give us our o'h so pleasant traits, ie,
OPPRESSION, RACISM, SLAVERY, PERSICUTION, INTOLERANCE, just to mention a
minute fraction. I can only guess at how many centuries we have been evolving
into the present SAD, SORRY, IMMATURE, SELF CENTERED, GREEDY, WAR LOVING,
PATHETIC, example's of the human race.

Yes there is a lot of good in the world, and a lot of good people also, but the fact
remains that there is no solution to the problem of what somebody thinks of another
person that is not to their standards. Religon is a platform for most disputes and is,
and has been used for centuries to justify the extermination of the opposing beleif.
I mean come on. I suppose being an athiest, or a non beleiver if you will, i can sit
on the outside and look in un-biast and see that far to much trouble has , and still
is being created due to somebody's religious beleif. (please don't assume that i -
automaticly have the oppinion that religion is bad . i don't , i respect a persons choice
to have faith in it ) I also see that it has travelled way to far, for it to be just cleaned
up and forgotten. It has been taught and haned down over milenia, and along the way
fragmented into an enormous number of versions, with so many O/S it is impossible to
be restored. Yes i am a pessamist, but i am also definately an optamist (spelling sorry)
i hope that as a world of people that in reality are the same, our self-inflicted stupidity
can eventually be relized and just maybe there could be a place for the following
generations to become unified in a common goal of PEACE, well we can only hold our
breath's while there are the EGOTISTICAL DICTATOR'S , AND THE SELF OPPINIONATED
*******S in some sort of leadership role.

Do as you are told as we are the power, the decision maker's,
We give you the freedom, but wer'e also the taker's,
We will place in your hand, your heart a gun with glee,
With a wink a smile, and a deal, from the power's that be,
Only we know what's right you just beg down and kneel,
Cos it's our way or no way we don't give a **** how you feel
It's a ..............AAHHH BUGGER IT THIS WILL BE ENDLESS BLAH BLAH BLAH.

yes i heard about the fla lynching. the very obvious answer would be the chief. its just too obvious for me to say its him...but it probably is. racism is alive and well accross the country. there's no doubt about that. here in nj a homeless man heard some one call "hey whitey". when he turned around a group of black teens started shooting him with paint ball guns putting out one of the mans eyes. not quit on a par with fla. but racism just the same. i just dont think that keeping whites from teaching black history is going to help put an end to this.

while its true TidaLphasE23 there is nothing we can or even should do about the way one man feels about another. everyone is entitled to their own opinion it's his actions that concern us all.

TidaLphasE23: what??? perhaps youshould sober up a bit before you try a long post :)

:fu: Drunk you reckon bballad? This was a thing the Australian government
encouraged Aboriginals to do as to not become an educated minority capable of a valid
argument regarding their right's. Persicution of the weak is a common standard of society
in wich we all have experianced. I suppose that being an alchoholic,drug addict,wife beating
law breaking,racist, is a resolt of third world doing's not our own.
Did i not explain myself properly ? Did i have an opinion that was different to your's ?
Can't you read the rambelings of an alchoholic, or are your eye's closed to the obvious fact
that you are the only one that replied to my post negatively? You are entitled to your
opinion as am i, your's sux.

Sorry folks I need to feed the troll for a second. Tida I wasn't disagreeing with your point, mainly because I couldn't tell if you had one. Perhaps more people would have responded to your post if it was coherent.

I am still not sure what the hell you are talking about, but it truly doesn’t seem even minutely related to this thread. If you noticed the article what we are dealing with here is a minority discriminating agenst the majority ..

Please explain how I forced any one in the third world to be a drunken moron...any one who is alcoholic / drug addicted /whatever has no one to blame but themselves regardless if the yare in the developed world or not. A human is a human regardless of where they live and personally I find it rather disgusting that you look down on people who live in poverty and claim that they don't have the ability to be responsible for their own actions. No one is an animal incapable of free will regardless of where they live.

Native Americans in this country have struggled with this for a long time, the rampant alcoholism didn't begin to subside until their society relised that it wasn't the white mans fault that they where drunk but their own and started dealing with the problem instead of blaming others for it.

Yes persecution is common but it isn't just the minority being persecuted by the majority. Sure I have been chased out of small town America by pickups full of good old boys with baseball bats, but I have also seen white kids beaten for being in the wrong neighborhood, or white people not accepted for a position because the yare white or male or whatever when a company or school need to fix a quota, I was offered a full rid scholarship to a number of universities because of my heritage while far more needing and deserving kids got passed up because they where white. Hell my family from Ecuador is the most raciest group you would ever meet. the point is that persecution runs both directions, the way to end it is not to give a group special privileges (only blacks can teach black history, a gay only school, ect.) but to treat ever one equal. So if an aborigine has a drinking problem don't blame the government that keeps him as an alcoholic, blame him and then try to help him recover (if he wants help).

Ballad I Have to say that was probably the best written, most thought provoking piece that you have written since I have been here, Tidal you did come at Ballad wrong you don't say

Drunk you reckon bballad? This was a thing the Australian government
encouraged Aboriginals to do as to not become an educated minority capable of a valid
argument regarding their right's. Persicution of the weak is a common standard of society
in wich we all have experianced. I suppose that being an alchoholic,drug addict,wife beating
law breaking,racist, is a resolt of third world doing's not our own.
Did i not explain myself properly ? Did i have an opinion that was different to your's ?
Can't you read the rambelings of an alchoholic, or are your eye's closed to the obvious fact
that you are the only dickhead that replied to my post negatively? You are entitled to your
opinion as am i, your's sux.

That was a bit much man come on that is bound to start an argument and Ballad be the better man Tidal is new he doesn't know how things work yet.

In other words both of you guys chill out. Or can I jump into this Flame. Refer to Flame thread if you want to think about it.

Oh yeah remember, you got to be intelligent enough to type so you have to have some sense.

Whizkid2300

bballad,
I was under the impression that the subject in general related to racism. Am i the only
person that has the opinion of the human race being in a downward spiral toward
extinction? All the talk and debate on this matter is irrelevant when the "majority"
of decision makers buy votes, kissing babies and pleasing the elite with their chosen
policies, putting aside the social issues that unless addressed will far outweigh the cost
of some economical decisions being made. It's damm frustrating being a hungry troll
not having any choice or input in the decisions being made by our governments. I may
be wrong in some of my opinions and ideas, but at least i can i can admit that.

Since when did i look down on poverty stricken people? If anything i had a go at the
war causing discrace called religon. Do you think that religon has nothing to do with
racism? What would you class the word infidel as being? racist? How can you blame
a person that's born into a certain religous beleif, or born in the backblocks of the world
exposed only to what they grow up with and are taught, for being onesided and selfish
to the rest of the world?

What would you expect a race of people oppressed for more than a century by white
folk and elitists to do when they are eventually given normal entitlements? be happy?
Not seek any revenge?

What would you expect ? I mean we talk about about justice and equality for all on one
hand and on the other decide who is entitled to this. This is a no win situation that will
never have a solution. Hell will freeze over well before there is any real progress in the
problem of racism and hatred. May an asteroid with a cataclismict punch cleanse the earth
of this infection, maybe then people would no longer suffer under the corupt ideals of
some.


Point taken whizkid2300. maybe i am enjoying the freedom i have a little to much.
Man this bourbon is good stuff. cheer's

Ok Tidal I don't know if you were being a Smart Ass when you said what you said at the bottom.
Point taken whizkid2300. maybe i am enjoying the freedom i have a little to much.
Man this bourbon is good stuff.

I believe that all people are born equal it is our own mistakes and REMARKS that make us look like asses.

Do I believe that religion has something to do with racism, you dam right I do. Here let's look at it like this who Killed the Aztecs. Why did they kill them. Religion.

N

Ok Tidal I don't know if you were being a Smart Ass when you said what you said at the bottom.
Point taken whizkid2300. maybe i am enjoying the freedom i have a little to much.
Man this bourbon is good stuff.

I believe that all people are born equal it is our own mistakes and REMARKS that make us look like asses.

Do I believe that religion has something to do with racism, you dam right I do. Here let's look at it like this who Killed the Aztecs. Why did they kill them. Religion.

Now I will generally say that most religions have had there religion wars.

Please no one take this offensive but Catholics and Muslims have everyone else beat in this department which brings me right back to the beggining of this article I have a pretty good feeling that the Lawyer that was representing the NAACP was Muslim or a member of the Nation of Islam.

It is free to say what you want as I am sherly doing but it is another thing to run your mouth and take a shot at someone when they are sherly trying to moderate.

If you were not taking a shot at me then sorry.

But, if you were I will open a room for this discussion to continue and I will prove to you just how lax your thinking is. And why you might want to put the Bourbon down.

Whizkid2300

whizkid2300, no i was not being a smartass when i said point taken. But it's just to
hard to resist thanking you for your offer of further discussing this matter in a room.
Can i bring the bourbon? Can you send sherly instead? Or could you just e-mail me her
phone number. thanks again. :D

Religious killings and raical killings are only sometimes related, not the same thing. Look blacks are christians in america and so is the clan. As for the aztechs, most of them where killed off by the aztechs. Those would fall under religious killings and not racial.

whizkid2300

"Schools fall under state gvt. not federal"

Up to a point. States can not have their schools do anything that is un-american. As long as were talking birmingham. you must remember from your ancient history class what transpired there in alabama when they refused to integrate their schools. troops were brought in. the same thing would happen if they started teaching the benifits of fachism, anti-semitism or anything else deemed un-american.

if a teacher had students read parts from a book from another time to illustrate the way people thought in that time i could believe that. but not the way your putting it. you have been given second hand information and have 'choosen' to take it at face value as the person i quoted did. i have been given third hand info from both of you and have choosen NOT to believe it. i've lived in the south. i also spent 15 years in texas, (the south west but still the south). i KNOW that until the late 80s there were still restuarants there were a black man could only eat in the kitchen. That has been stopped. if you KNOW of a school that is trying to force racist beliefs on students...i think you should report them to the feds. they have no more right to do that than someone has to say a white man cannot teach black history. Racism in any form is not acceptable.

Tedob you are right it comes in many different ways and views. But at the sametime it is racism. That goes the same way there are far to many schools and teachers to monitor. Now I will say that my info was second hand and there for liable to be suspect. But, thnk about it this way, if you catch a cab in ny is it easy for a black man to get a cab. I personally believe that racism is still very live and strong in this country. But that is another discussion. One that I will start in a room and post the key. But later.

Whizkid2300

Quote:

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Originally posted here by Tedob1
Dhej I don’t believe there are schools in the south with books like that, school books are under state and federal regulation. So if and entire state thought that a racist book was proper the feds would prevent it and ive never heard what you say you’ve heard said. Lincoln freed the slaves in the hopes they would rise up against the south “.” That’s what they teach in school and that’s the truth

“A people's history is a powerful thing, particularly when reinvented and used against them.”


I couldn't agree more and thats exactly whats happening to most americans today
What kind of history are we writing for tomorrow?

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If you wish a source for my statement it came from a talk by a man named James Lowen his website is here and the book that he discussed during the talk was Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything That Your Highschool History Book Got Wrong

And textbooks are approved at the state level, though usually it is more of a local decision as obviously not every school uses the same books nor does every school update its books regularly, though I am sure that if someone made a big enough stink it would be brought to the federal level, but often that kind of thing isn't taken to well by the locals. It'd be nice to think that all schools were created equally, but to think that would be sticking ones head in the sand.

And whoever mentioned the French teacher analogy picked a bad one for their point, most foreign language teachers are required or "strongly recommended" while at college to spend time in the country of their subject..., and it is pretty damn hard for a white person to have a black experience... After doing study of French literature I have found that a lot of the content is missed by the American reader, just because of the multitudes of cultural references that we just don't get... Its just a really bad analogy when dealling with the humanities because peoples have culture, something numbers don't, so they require a different kind of understanding.

But I tire of attacking arguments supporting what I believe is right, I just feel that if we are to condemn their actions we should recognize their valid concerns over the education of their children, even though they are protecting them in a manner that is dangerous to their own cause, but if we condemn them without the proper argument we can do just as much damage to our own causes...

Your champion for runnon sentences,
Dhej

Quote:

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Originally posted here by TidaLphasE23
bballad,
I was under the impression that the subject in general related to racism. Am i the only
person that has the opinion of the human race being in a downward spiral toward
extinction.

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I missed this statement the first time through.... romantzation of the past is a horrible fallacy, give me one example of who things where so great why back when that is so bad now....one example of how we are spiraling downward. Is humanity perfect...no but we are a hell of a lot better now then we use to be. there was never a noble savage, or a peaceful society. This was a fallacy of arrogance in recent anthropology, read "War Before Civilization" for a wonderful and well written debunking of this myth.


Oh and any one try to pull the “well TV is no amid at the lowest common denominator now and use to be so grate” card, remember “Gilligans Island”, “Dukes of Hazard”, and “The Love Boat” where prime time television.

bballad, Yes it is true that we have come a long way, technology, medicine,
science, great things have been acheived just in the last century, but to say
that certain discovery's havn't restricted our progress and put us on a road to
total desruction is just being ignorant. Sure the research into many weapons
development has also aided advances in medecine and technology in general,
but how can all this really be positive? We can now save more lives with the ever
growing advances made with this research, but we can also kill more people with
the new weapon invented. If you think that the cold war never exsisted, and how
close the world was to being exploded, then you must have been on mars. To think
that the good outweighs the bad is also joke. Since when in the last 100 years can
you honestly say we have progressed toward a more peaceful world? It's the power
of the weapons that brings peace, explain that to me with an example of there not
being a downward spiral toward destruction, and i will stand corrected.

Well considering that we have ended the old war, no longer have anything that could be called a 100 years war, or commit canabilism on our enamies I would say that yes we have come a long way. The majority of us now consider genocide a bad thing is also a good sign as we haven't allways thaught that (in fact wars in prehistory where often wars of genocide spaceficly targeting women and children of opposeing tribes.). Oh and when did I say the cold war never happened, I beilive what you may be refering to is my comment that the cold war started long before the accepted start date.

Now for examples. well as a society we consider lynching someone because of their race a bad thing, this was not true in the early 1900's. We also tried to stop the wars of genocied (with mixed results) that have been waged in the balkens and africa for as long as there have been people there to fight. lets look at the former Yougoslavia, we have groups that have been trying to wage war on each other for thousands of years, it wasn't untill this centuray that the idea of global peace caused world powers like the US and Russia to step in and say killing each other and rapeing each others women is a bad thing. Humm takeing in that light it seems we are crawling up from barberism not the other way around.

Your turn, how are we more barbaric now? So we have bigger guns now then we had then, we are less likely to use them now so its a moot point.

Well o.k. we have become more surgical at killing, in the end the result is the same,
women and children are slautered, people die. What reference's are you quoting from
regarding the rape and torture of woman in recent war campains not happening? It
is a common occurance that all involved are guilty of. When the "terroists" eventually
get their hands on the weapons of m/d they will prove without a doubt that we as
human beings "are" barbaric in the real and horrible sense of the word. I dont think
it will be a moot point then.

I am not saying that we are not barbairic, just that we haven't been getting worse in recent years, we have allways been this bad if not worse..... Remember stacking the heads of thousands of your enamies at your border as a warning use to be considered the proper thing to do.