Constitution (yet another US rant)

Heya all,

<Antionline specific notice>
Now with non-anonymous Antipoints I expect assignments to be valid. I know there will be assignments because they always are and how many people are hypocrit or not and maybe you don't care about not being anonymous, because you got so ****ing much antipoints you don't "fear" revenge. I can tell you I won't take revenge and you don't have to prove your power if you run out of words. However, because I'm just ignorant I ask again. Please don't neg people just because you don't like their opinion.
</Antionline specific notice>

Like recently in the news again, an Al Quaida man threaths the US again:
http://www.omroep.nl/nos/nieuws/inde...siers.html</a>
It's a dutch link and I'll try to explain what it says.
The first part is about some guy saying on some tv channel the US is goin to be attacked again. He says the real fight hasn't even begun yet. The second part is more interesting for my story. Washington is planning to bring about 600 prisoners for a miltary tribunal or a military court (if that's the correct translation). The prisonners are imprisonned at a US armybase and the people are from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Ausrtalia, Great-Britain. Six of them (of wich 2 of GB) will be judged very soon. Therefor they made a special tribunal wich may give them the death penalty. Washington says these people don't have the rights of prisoners of war from the conventions of Genève because they are enemy fighters.

Socond link:
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...ember_11th.asp

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Since September 11th, the freedoms that are at the core of our democratic society are, for many, no longer a guarantee. Hundreds of innocent Arab and Muslim individuals were rounded up and held for months with no idea why. Prisoners were shipped to Guantanamo Bay, where they have not been afforded the protections widely thought to be applicable under the Geneva Convention. New laws on domestic terrorism and relaxed restrictions on government surveillance of activists threaten long-established traditions of political expression. And perhaps most chilling, these detentions - like many actions by the Bush Administration - have been shrouded in a deep secrecy that is inimical to democratic accountabilty.

On all counts, CCR is fighting for the Bill of Rights. Out of 16 lawsuits related to civil liberties after September 11th, identified by the Legal Times in 2002, CCR is a party to nine. We will continue to work tirelessly in defense of individual liberties and the rule of law in the United States.

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If yer interested also have a look at the links at the bottom
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...vv&Content=239
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...8m&Content=210
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...0kV&Content=88
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...es2&Content=89
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...CpS&Content=90
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/septe...6Vx&Content=93
etc.

To not make this post to long there are many more examples of the US ignoring the constintutional right and the like. I know the US isn't alone on that (read disclaimer). That little bit of humanity so many people died for. The thing people cry for in warmovies. The dirty tricks you see in movies about the Vietnam war (from both sites) the mean people from whatever action movie.

The US is allowed to totally burn down two countries so far. One far potentionally hosting a Al Quaida leader. So far actually they didn't find him. Afghanistan lies in ruins. I didn't see prove Osama Bin Laden actually had to do with 11 september. They claimed it ? Then where's the prove Osama is in Afghanistan ? And why should we litterally *punish* the afghanistan people for his deeds. Bush didn't even try to hide he was killing as many people as had died in the Two Towers. The world did nothing I know, they were stunned by the agression from both sites. I'm taking about the US (disclaimer). Of course people will come with hidden and confident files that proves these things. Someone also said he had prove of Iraq having forbidden weapons and they knew it so sure. They knew the locations of training camps, where the missiles where hidden etc etc. Now... WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY THEN. Iraq lies in ruins. Nice side effect: Sadaam was an evil dictator.

These are just very few examples, but they do count I think. I know the common objections I always get when I say stuff like this, so please read my disclaimer:

<Disclaimer>
As you might have already noticed I'm going to bitch about the US government again. I'm actually posting it because I want to know other views because I *might* actually be wrong. Please don't come with arguments like "everyones doing it" and "why attack the US AGAIN". I don't only "attack" the US altough I do in this post. I also don't have anything against Americans personally. The reason why I "attack" again is because the issue never get's solved really. There's always some childish part in the chain that somehow ends the discussion in a way at least I am not fine with. I'm typing it here so I don't have to say this in every next post I make.
</Disclaimer>

I also know I always forget alot of stuff. I'll try to restore them in following posts if I remember them again. This post is just to long to be bugless.

Have fun and keep the discussion fair.

p.s.

A friend of mine told me this when I said I was going to "attack" the US "again":

<*> But understand we are the best in the world, and we can do whatever the **** we want
<*> Like yank leaders
<*> sell weapons and say "HEY, YOU ARE USING OUR WEAPONS"

so please don't send your FBI at me
</sarcasm>

It's an American who said this btw.

Neel, I'll try to keep this short....

Terrorism is a WORLD problem, not a US only problem.

These people have declared WAR on the US...they don't follow any rules, they just want to kill Americans and anyone else who happens to get in their way. Since they follow NO RULES why should we be expected to follow the Geneva conventions or EXTEND constitutional rights to people who are not even citizens of the US? These people are murdering bastards, plain and simple. I won't form an opinion on them deserving the death penalty though...I think that is something that should be based on the severity of the crime.

Religion is OK, but this type of fanaticism has no place in society.

As for your friend, all I can say is that his attitudes are those of a real peckerhead and do not reflect the attitudes of all US citizens.

I daresay that everyone would have a different opinion if it had been THEIR country that was hit on 9/11, but thats just me and I could well be wrong....it wouldn't be the first time and damn sure wouldn't be the last.

Allenb1963, I know terrorist are a world problem and I don't try to back them up. I was showing how the US treats those people even if they're already caught and not able to cause deads. I also was showing how the US treat other *nations* where they are suspected of having terrorists in their country. After having ruined the country the US and friends couldn't come up with the prove they had when they started, so there's a simple explanation: they didn't have prove ever. My post wasn't really about fighting the terrorists, but the way the US is doing it. They fight terrorist, but they kill nations wich doesn't have anything in common except the colour of the skin. It comes close to racism to say the muslims are bad in general while they in the past showed to be one of the more tollerant religions. It shouldn't be about the religion. It should be about the humans. Humans have rights whatever they did. Bush is responsible for killing more people then any of those prisoners and even he has those rights.

I'm 100% sure if 9/11 was in the netherlands I'd think the same. I'd want the bastards to pay, but I would also think we should then pick the right bastards. Killing nations and still fail to get the leader is plain stupid. It's even more stupid if there's no prove either.

My view.

allenb.... I agree with you that terrorism is a world problem but in answer to your question

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Since they follow NO RULES why should we be expected to follow the Geneva conventions or EXTEND constitutional rights to people who are not even citizens of the US?

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quite simply because we are supposed to be rational decent human beings. We (as in we I mean those countries that are supposed to adhere to the geneva convention) made those rules and just because the 'enemy' doesn't follow the same rules as us does not give us the right to disregard our own rules. If we do disregard our own rules of behaviour e.g. the geneva convention, how does that make us any better than a terrorist??

By not sticking to these self imposed rules, all it does is degrade us as 'noble' human beings with a sense of honour and justice. Yes you're right it does stick in the throat when you come up against those who do not follow the same rules - but we're supposed to be better than them - so why don't we act like it?

Now this is not the same as saying that those terrorists should get off scot free - they shouldn't ... but neither should they be treated as something less than human beings - to treat them in this way is the basis of what the UK, US and Europe tried fighting against 50 years ago. Despite the fact they are murdering bastards they are still humans and should be given appropriate rights. Bush himself said that the US and to an extent the UK is persuing a war on terrorism. Ok if thats the case then the terrorists at Guantanamo bay are enemy forces captured during a war i.e. they are POW's and should be treated accordingly.

Z

Sorry to make you mad, but I already told you what I thought if it was my country. I read alot about military battles etc because they intrigue me. This isn't like Napoleon though. It doesn't have anything to do with "battles", not even with tactics and barely strategy. Doing nothing was an option, but the US is in a to big mess now. I played warcraft and ago of empires alot. How does tha quaify me to attack a country kill millions and still fail without prove, without notice of human rights. In a battle there are the rules of war. When you make prisoners we agreed on another ruleset. It's not about the "fight" it's about the treatment of people.

The mistakes the US made in, for example, Vietnam aren't the issue, it's the reason of that war. *If* you go to war do it the right way, because you want to win. Besides the motives being wrong (imo), the US isn't addapting to the terrorist either, they're just acting like terrorists themselves by mass exterminating people with the same religion or colour of skin. So far the addapting...

To turn your own perspective change to yourself. What if YOUR country was being ruined because one American decided to fly an airplane into a rather large building in a country that always opressed yours. What if you entire family got killed by a tribunal of war solely because they lived to close to a *possible* terrorist camp and what if they didn't get a fair trial either?

You can be mad, I'm mad to.

Neel, It surly is a sad state of affairs in which the world is currently in. There could never be
any justification for murdering so many innocent people on 9/11, it's a sign of the cruelty that
these exstremist's call jihad. It's going to be a war that will have no end, only brutal and
continued suffering on both sides. I am trying not to take sides in figureing out the reason's
behind this current dilema that has gripped the globe, but it is not as clean cut as some would
have you believe. The US has been doing deals to suit itself for many year's, supporting many
varied individuals and groups one minute and then the next taking them out using some not
so humane method's. Some of these operations would have been legitimate security concern
while other's just plain greed of the $. I repeat i am not taking sides on this i am just being a
very concerned person trying to work it all out. I compaire it to going around town telling
everyone what they can do, when they can, how they can, and just slapping who-ever in
the face because they don't agree. Do this in real life in your home town and see how long
it will be before this kind of action come's back around to bite you on the ass, not long i
suspect.

I watched a very interesting documentary in the late 90's in which binladen was interviewed
regarding the U/S. It was a very predictive and obvious warning that there was going to be
reprisal attack's on the U/S in retaliation to it's polocies. At the end of this program i was
100% convinced that there was no doubt at all of these extremists carrying out their threats.

O.K this is going to upset some people but hey, let's face it the history of double dealing and
standover tactics is well known by all who have their eye's open to the obvious, only a super-
power could get away with it all. I will also say that i am gratefull for these action's as it has,
and still provides the freedom's that i enjoy, and have since i was born. I would definately
prefer to accept the "running's of the business" as it is than live under a dictatorship with
limited right's and restricted ambition's.

We can only hope that there will be a solution to this madness before many many more
innocent people perish at the hand's of madmen. Unfortunately i don't see that there could
be one forthcoming without a massive change of thinking from all the player's. Our kid's are
our future, yet we teach hate and war to often. The media has also got to totally revise it's
method of social engeneering to enable a more positive outlook and attitude for all.

anyway's that's my 2 bob, if you feel the need to correct me, or help me better understand
this situation feel free to reply not to insult.

That's it.. I wasn't going to post this.. I had written it up and just put it on my website beacuse I know regardless of the rules in here, someone will neg me for it.... Anyways.. I've gotta post this now.

Hey Hey,

I've stayed clear of cosmos for a very long time, as most of you have probably noticed. This is because like neel mentioned, this is supposed to be an AP-free zone, yet people don't seem to realize that. They still attack people for their opinions. Anyways here we go.

Like allenb said terrorism is a world problem, not a US problem and no they haven't declared war on the US, it was a terrorist act. A country is required to declare war, not a few individuals. However it is all the US's fault. 9/11 wouldn't have happened to any other country for the sole reason that no other country goes out and sticks their nose in other peoples business. The US has covertly been going out and killing 1000s upon 1000s of innocent people in countries around the world for years. They've funded most of these terrorist cells that now defy them. The 9/11 attack was... I wanna say justified, but murder is never justified, but it was expected. If you sit and poke a dog with a stick eventually that dog is gonna strike back regardless of how much you've previously pacified it. That is what the US has been doing all over the world, poking dogs with sticks and not expecting any backlash.

The words that neel posted from an American friend of his are quite accurate. I've met a fair number of Americans, travelling threw the states, growing up on a border town... etc. They all have the high and mighty attitude. They are the worlds schoolyard bully. You have what we want, so we'll just take it because we're bigger and better. America seems to enjoy causing problems. Just look at the Freedom toast and Freedom fries... what purpose did that serve other than to cause more problems and prove that Americans lack intelligence on the actual origin of those words. Much like the schoolyeard bully, American displays a severe lack of intelligence. TV shows like Street Smarts being broadcast in other countries, or even Made in Canada... don't help your image. They make things worse. To make up for the fact that they are ridiculed and disliked, they lash out the only way they know how. With their weapons.

It's not secret that I'm Anti-American. I've seen them do enough stupid **** to dislike them (Water Issues, Lumber Issues and most recently hunting issues in northern ontario). I've encounted 1000s of them who lack intelligence, and are cocky for the sole reason that they are American. They threatened to close borders because we decriminalized possession of one ounce of marijuana. They expect everyone to do as they say and listen to them. However many of my good friends are also American. I respect them as individuals, because that's what they are... individuals. It's unfortunate that most Americans simply want to follow what their government tells them. A government that is actually a dictatorship, a two-party democracy should never be called a democracy, you have no real choice. Also every American I've enountered who's spent any time in Canada says they wish they lived here, and I always tell them the same thing... we don't want your attitude here.

I'd also like to know why America has had this change of heart in the last 50 years. Now it's their responsibility to get involved? Shall we look at World War II? The US refused to enter the war until Pearl Harbor was attacked.. and I still hear Americans refering to that as an Act of Terrorism, not war. It's funny how it's war unless it happens to them, then it's always terrorism. The US spent 2 years watching other countries take up arms and stand up to the Nazi's and they sat on their asses. Yet now it's their responsibility to get involved? Bullshit... it's just a lightly veiled cover for going in and causing more ****.

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Hundreds of innocent Arab and Muslim individuals were rounded up and held for months with no idea why. Prisoners were shipped to Guantanamo Bay, where they have not been afforded the protections widely thought to be applicable under the Geneva Convention. New laws on domestic terrorism and relaxed restrictions on government surveillance of activists threaten long-established traditions of political expression. And perhaps most chilling, these detentions

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heh, reminds me of the Japanese camps of WWII

I am wondering. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Hmm, looks like intelligence is on the hotseat for misinformation. But don't worry. They will find a scapegoat if they did not already. Hey! But you never know! I might be proven wrong, and one day, we will dig up all kinds of biological weapons and a super-secret nuclear device.

Yes, leave your flames on the Assign AntiPoints link. Thanks in advance.

Mathgirl... with the utmost of respect I think you may have missed neel's point slightly. You're right there is no justification for murder - which is what happened on 9/11... but that is not an excuse to chuck all morality out of the window and disregard the rights of a fellow human being, just because the enemy doesn't play fair. For example those POW's in Guantanamo bay are currently not being accorded any rights of POWs as defined by the geneva convention. NOTE I am NOT saying that they should be given comfy cells etc, but similarly they should have the sh*t beaten out of them for being on the wrong side. As Neel said

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In a battle there are the rules of war. When you make prisoners we agreed on another ruleset. It's not about the "fight" it's about the treatment of people.

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And whilst I can't claim to have suffered a tragedy like 9/11... just so you know, one of my cousins was injured by a bomb in manchester UK, in 96. The bomb was placed by the IRA.... I do know some of the flip side of this argument so I do understand your point of view - yes I would like to see the person responsible in prison and paying for his crime but similarly I recognise that whoever he is, he is still a human being. I'm not a bleeding heart liberalist but I do believe that every human being has certain rights. You can't disregard those rights when something like 9/11 happens because then you're no better than a terrorist yourself

Z

All posted by HT:

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However it is all the US's fault. 9/11 wouldn't have happened to any other country for the sole reason that no other country goes out and sticks their nose in other peoples business.

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I've met a fair number of Americans, travelling threw the states, growing up on a border town... etc. They all have the high and mighty attitude. They are the worlds schoolyard bully.

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what purpose did that serve other than to cause more problems and prove that Americans lack intelligence on the actual origin of those words. Much like the schoolyeard bully, American displays a severe lack of intelligence. TV shows like Street Smarts being broadcast in other countries, or even Made in Canada... don't help your image. They make things worse. To make up for the fact that they are ridiculed and disliked

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It's not secret that I'm Anti-American.

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I've encounted 1000s of them who lack intelligence, and are cocky for the sole reason that they are American

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I think it's more than fair to say that you HT have failed to see your very own hypocrisy. The deduction i have come to from reading your post is that everyone but the U.S is very intelligent and perfect aswell.

Do your comments strike me as extremely arrogant; the very same arrogance you claim the U.S shows the world? .......YES.

nuff said.

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Originally posted here by paulie walnuts

I think it's more than fair to say that you HT have failed to see your very own hypocrisy. The deduction i have come to from reading your post is that everyone but the U.S is very intelligent and perfect aswell.

Do your comments strike me as extremely arrogant; the very same arrogance you claim the U.S shows the world? .......YES.

nuff said.

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You are just trying to attack me, because I've taken down your society and the government/country you have faith in. If that's the deduction you've come to, that's your problem. I never said that everyone else was very intelligent or perfect. I said the US causes problems and many of their citizens lack intelligence, that is the truth. No other country causes as many problems. I can't speak for the intelligence of other countries, but watch Street Smarts sometime... you'll see what I mean. What does xerosis affect? Guys response, The Xeroser. And they'll have many many people with stupid answers like that all night long. Then you get Made In Canada, where a Canadian goes into the US and asks Americans questions about Canadians and other stuff... yet no one knows any of the answers. That to me says lack of intelligence. I could also point out the serveral Americans on here who can't spell worth crap and then blame it on where they are from. I never said anyone was better than America, I just said we mind our own business.

I would have to disagree with arguing the point regarding these terroist parasite's
entitlements to any form of rights. Where was the consideration for the innocent
who suffered from the actions of these people? non-exsistant.
Most of these detainee's crying innocent would be among the first in their own countrie's
to rejoice at what happened.Dancing in the street and shooting guns etc.
A crime has been committed and needs to be investigated. If that involves detaining
so called innocent people along the way then so be it.

Yes this was a "reaction" to U/S polocy around the world but regardless of that it still
needs to be resolved. I think that saying the unfortunate people deserved it is damm
outragous and un-called for. Yes the U/S "government's" actions did cause this new phase
of termoil, but to say it's people deserved it is just wrong. To begin to understand the
enormity of global managment is i feel an impossible task for most to even consider
coming even close.

As far as Iraq is concerned, no proof of weapons of M/D needs to be found. It's leader
was doing deal's with either the French or the Germans year's ago regarding the
building of nucliar plant's , weapon's. He and his son's made it quet clear what sort of
people they were. Definately not worthy of being in the position to research and invest
in this technology.

It's not about playing fair anymore, your enemy is dirty and it is stupid to think these
people aren't going to take a shot while you play fair. While not on Australian soil, the
Bali bombings is an example of their fairness, targeting Australian's for being in support
of the U/S. Government actions, innocent citizens suffering. Yeah f--ck it i blame the actions
and the decisions of the "U/S GOVERNMENT" not it's people for this. :mad:

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You are just trying to attack me, because I've taken down your society and the government/country you have faith in. If that's the deduction you've come to, that's your problem. I never said that everyone else was very intelligent or perfect. I said the US causes problems and many of their citizens lack intelligence, that is the truth. No other country causes as many problems. I can't speak for the intelligence of other countries, but watch Street Smarts sometime... you'll see what I mean. What does xerosis affect? Guys response, The Xeroser. And they'll have many many people with stupid answers like that all night long. Then you get Made In Canada, where a Canadian goes into the US and asks Americans questions about Canadians and other stuff... yet no one knows any of the answers. That to me says lack of intelligence. I could also point out the serveral Americans on here who can't spell worth crap and then blame it on where they are from. I never said anyone was better than America, I just said we mind our own business.

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This is not a personal attack HT, i was just pointing out that you were doing the same things your accusing others of doing. By definition that is hypocrisy.

Streetsmarts, yes, that is by far the most idiotic show i have ever seen in my entire life. You are talking about the one with the "dunce cap" and all that stupid crap right? If so, then yes, that is a stupid show and i can guarantee you noone i know likes that crappy program. Hell, i'm still baffled as to why it's on WGN (i believe) in the first place.

I keep hearing you refer to this show, and you seem to repeatedly compare that show to Americans as a whole. This stupid show has nothing to do with most Americans. It's simply an ignorant tv show ok! This show does'nt in any way reflect our society, and i'm sorta insulted that you keep making this comparison. Are you telling me that Canada has no stupid tv shows....come'on.

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I never said that everyone else was very intelligent or perfect. I said the US causes problems and many of their citizens lack intelligence, that is the truth.

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Furthermore, i think you should re-read your first post. I think there is sufficient evidence to back up what i stated in my first post. It may not have been what you said word for word, but i'm not stupid enough to believe this was'nt the gist of what you said ok. Just as different words have similar meanings, the same applies here.

Edit: spelled ignorant wrong....go figure. :-)

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Where was the consideration for the innocent
who suffered from the actions of these people?

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I agree with you tidal_phase completely. They had no consideration for the little children, mothers and fathers. They had no guilt about ruining families lives. These people are heartless.

These terrorists wanted to attack us because they hate us, because we are not forced to worship Allah or whoever else they worship. We have freedom to do what we want when we want. We have freedom to stand out in the middle of a street and say awful things about are President, yet if you go to their country they will shoot you down just because they don't like where you come from.

What makes you say that Americans are stupid ignorant people HT?
Like allenb was saying you've have not met all of America therefore you cannot judge us Americans. Sure, there are some of us out there that are ignorant and stupid, but that does not mean that the whole country is that way.

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a Canadian goes into the US and asks Americans questions about Canadians and other stuff... yet no one knows any of the answers. That to me says lack of intelligence. I could also point out the serveral Americans on here who can't spell worth crap and then blame it on where they are from

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Just where does Canadians going into America and asking us questions that we do not know the answer to prove that we are dumb. I could go into Canada, ask a bunch of questions that you guys don't know then come back say canadians are dumb.

I'm very sure that theres also a lot of canadians HT who can't spell worth crap, and blame it on where they are from.

neel:

I see two countries invaded by the US. The first was a PROVEN haven for terrorists (I'm pretty sure it wasn't a coincidence that Usama Bin Laden lived in Afghanistan) and was ruled by a repressive regime where the slightest infraction WOULD GET YOU SHOT OR HUNG. Women were not even allowed to go to school. How would the female members of your family feel if a bunch of religious fanatics took away their ability to get an education and seek gainful employment? How would YOU feel if you saw your mom forced to BEG FOR FOOD on the streets? If giving a group of people back the rights to education and self government is "ruining" a country, then I'm ready to ruin the world my friend.

On to country number two...can anyone here spell OPPRESSIVE REGIME? It's a country where saying ONE BAD WORD against the leadership could get you and your family exterminated. A country where women could not walk down the street without fear because the head honcho's son had a reputation for grabbing women off the street and raping them if he found them the least bit attractive. These guys looked at torture the same way that the rest of the world looks at basketball or soccer....they did it just to get their kicks. So I guess if you are a sadist then hell yeah...we ruined that country too.

Yes, my government is FAR FROM PERFECT....but at least I can say that without fear of reprisals from death squads and other mercenary types. There is corruption here, but the people of the US have the ability to root such things out and remove them....something that every country in the world deserves to be able to do. After all...all men (and women) were created equal.

And neel, playing the race card was just plain wrong. We don't hate arabs nor do we hate muslims...we hate oppressive bullies and they come in all colors. If people don't quit playing the race card then racism will never go away...and we all have to start with ourselves when attempting to wipe out that particular blight from the earth.

I guess my "proactive point of view" is a wee bit too much for some of you people to handle. But tell me this...what are we to do when we see cruelty and injustice visited upon our fellow human beings....human beings who have had the power to control their own destinies stripped away from them? Turn a blind eye and thank God that it is happening to someone else? ANYTIME I see wrongs being done that cry out to be righted and something needs to be done I have to ask "If not me...who? If not now....when?"

So neel, HTRegz, and all the rest who don't quite "get it" let me say this....if I'm walking down a street and see you getting the crap kicked out of you by a bunch of hoodlums, I'm going to do something about it. Be it calling the police or jumping in and getting my own knuckles bloodied, I'm sticking up for the underdog. To be quite frank, if or when the day comes that one of you becomes the underdog, I seriously doubt that you'll bitch like you have here if I try to save your ass at the risk of my own...but then again you never know, some people just can't be satisfied.

cheyenne: Maybe all Americans aren't arrogant and unintelligent. However, I can base my opinions on those that I have met and experienced. Which is what I'm doing.

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I agree with you tidal_phase completely. They had no consideration for the little children, mothers and fathers. They had no guilt about ruining families lives. These people are heartless.

These terrorists wanted to attack us because they hate us, because we are not forced to worship Allah or whoever else they worship. We have freedom to do what we want when we want. We have freedom to stand out in the middle of a street and say awful things about are President, yet if you go to their country they will shoot you down just because they don't like where you come from.

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How about the innocent people the US killed when they attacked Afghanistan or Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter? Does that make you all heartless people as well? They attacked you because they hate you yes, but they hate you for funding them and taking it away, for providing funds to their enemies, for getting involved where you just don't belong.


Allenb: If the US had just gone in and dealt with the "hoodlums", no one would have complained. However they killed innocent people, and left a country in ruins. A single sniper would have done the trick, or a CIA assassin, but no.. you had to leave a path of death and destruction.

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Allenb: If the US had just gone in and dealt with the "hoodlums", no one would have complained. However they killed innocent people, and left a country in ruins. A single sniper would have done the trick, or a CIA assassin, but no.. you had to leave a path of death and destruction.

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Last time I looked, political assassinations were illegal (I think) on a world wide basis (or at least they are illegal by US law)....BTW, did you ever stop to consider how many of OUR people have died over there? Not to say that one nations people are more valuable than anothers....not at all...all human life is precious. But why aren't you harping about the THOUSANDS killed by the deposed regimes because they dared to stand up for themselves? I guess it's only chic to bitch when Americans pull the trigger.

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How about the innocent people the US killed when they attacked Afghanistan or Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter? Does that make you all heartless people as well? They attacked you because they hate you yes, but they hate you for funding them and taking it away, for providing funds to their enemies, for getting involved where you just don't belong.

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Yes there were innocent people like children and women killed in those countries, but there is a difference. The difference being that we never meant for their deaths, we never meant to harm innocent children, and we are sorry they were killed. However, these terrorists that attacked us are not sorry, they meant to kill women and children. They have no problem with it. But we have a conscience, and are sorry for their deaths.

We are merely defending are country from further attacks. When the President takes office he swears to do what is best for his country. In this case it meant dealing with countries harboring terrorists.


What allen says is very true about these countries gunning one down for saying something bad about their president. These people must continually live in fear. I know this because I have been to some of these countries. I have seen what it truly is like to live in a third world country. People that I have talked to never talk about their government or what they don't like, because if they do then they are dead.


So far so good, no ones been banned yet :)

Sorry for the order of the post... it goes by posts made not by person:

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I didn't see prove Osama Bin Laden actually had to do with 11 september. They

claimed it ? Then where's the prove Osama is in Afghanistan ? And why should we litterally

*punish* the afghanistan people for his deeds.

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bin Laden himself claiming responsiblity is not enough proof for you? The proof that Osama

was in Afghanistan was based on information from several top Taliban officals.. and why

should we punish the Afghanistan people? Simple, they run a state sponsored terrorist group,

a group that attacked America, thus we need to eliminate that group before something happens

again...

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I'd want the bastards to pay, but I would also think we should then pick the right

bastards. Killing nations and still fail to get the leader is plain stupid. It's even more

stupid if there's no prove either.

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Who says we picked the wrong countries... I totally think we picked the right countries to

attack and I say we should finish off the trio by taking out North Korea... Afganistan ran a

government funded terrorist organization, Iraq was headed by Saddam, a man who killed his

own people, INNOCENT people, people like you and me.. and now North Korea is firing up its

nuclear arms factories in an effort to make a statement of some sort, we as the world's big

brother have an obligation to take out the scum and we did so...

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quite simply because we are supposed to be rational decent human beings. We (as in we

I mean those countries that are supposed to adhere to the geneva convention) made those

rules and just because the 'enemy' doesn't follow the same rules as us does not give us the

right to disregard our own rules. If we do disregard our own rules of behaviour e.g. the

geneva convention, how does that make us any better than a terrorist??

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There's a time for diplomacy and there's a time for action... we did our jobs abiding to the

Geneva Convention but when our soldiers are being pecked off 1-2 a day, it gets ridiculous..

we need to play on the same grounds as the enemy or those numbers will go up higher and

higher....

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Now this is not the same as saying that those terrorists should get off scot free -

they shouldn't ... but neither should they be treated as something less than human beings -

to treat them in this way is the basis of what the UK, US and Europe tried fighting against

50 years ago. Despite the fact they are murdering bastards they are still humans and should

be given appropriate rights.

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And how have we exactly taken away their appropriate rights? We've fed them, sheltered them,

gave them the right to speak, and we're holding military tribunals (soon enough) to prove

guilt or innocence.

[quote]To turn your own perspective change to yourself. What if YOUR country was being

ruined because one American decided to fly an airplane into a rather large building in a

country that always opressed yours./quote]

How have we oppressed Aghanistan... we helped them in THEIR war with Russians and then we

left.. what else do you want from us... money from my tax dollars to pay for a war started

by a bunch of Arabs...

[quote]You have what we want, so we'll just take it because we're bigger and better. America

seems to enjoy causing problems. Just look at the Freedom toast and Freedom fries... what

purpose did that serve other than to cause more problems and prove that Americans lack

intelligence on the actual origin of those words. Much like the schoolyeard bully, American

displays a severe lack of intelligence.[quote]

We enjoy causing problems? What are you talking about... this is ridiculous.. the world

depends on America, immigrants from all over the world stream accross our borders like

parasites nightly just to get a chance to be here...

When something goes wrong in the world, a country attacks another, like Iraq and Kuwait,

who's called in to seperate the world... AMERICA. When peace discussions counldn't be

reached in Yugoslavia, who was called... AMERICA. We show a lack of intelligence.. how about

the rest of the world.. 'We hate America... but I'd kill to be able to live there...'

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They threatened to close borders because we decriminalized possession of one ounce of

marijuana. They expect everyone to do as they say and listen to them.

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And all of you expect us to help you... to let you in to our country, to help you when

someone attacks, to give grants for tourissm...

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It's unfortunate that most Americans simply want to follow what their government

tells them. A government that is actually a dictatorship, a two-party democracy should never

be called a democracy, you have no real choice.

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And you know this from...? We have elections, we run our country our way and we're doing

fine as of the last time I checked... and I'm not even going to tell you that you should

really take a look at what you're saying.. two-party.. there are millions of parties.. but

none are supported...

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Also every American I've enountered who's spent any time in Canada says they wish

they lived here, and I always tell them the same thing... we don't want your attitude here.

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I'm an American and there isn't a shot in hell that I'd give up what I have in America to

live with a bunch of dim-witted fools such as yourself...

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I'd also like to know why America has had this change of heart in the last 50 years.

Now it's their responsibility to get involved? Shall we look at World War II? The US refused

to enter the war until Pearl Harbor was attacked.. and I still hear Americans refering to

that as an Act of Terrorism, not war. It's funny how it's war unless it happens to them,

then it's always terrorism. The US spent 2 years watching other countries take up arms and

stand up to the Nazi's and they sat on their asses. Yet now it's their responsibility to get

involved? Bullshit... it's just a lightly veiled cover for going in and causing more

****.

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Excellent, you've touched my favorite topic.. back then we did help, how about WWI, we went

and saved the Allied Forces' asses and WWII was no different.. why was our entry into the

war late? Because of the Depression! Our economy was in a rut, we didn't have the money for

another war and The Great War (WWI). But when Japan attacked, we didn't want anything else

to happen so we declared war on the Axis powers.

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I am wondering. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Hmm, looks like

intelligence is on the hotseat for misinformation. But don't worry. They will find a

scapegoat if they did not already. Hey! But you never know! I might be proven wrong, and one

day, we will dig up all kinds of biological weapons and a super-secret nuclear device.

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Well.. on account that Iraq is the size of Texas and I doubt that there is a sign that says

"WMD HERE ->", it takes time.. searching for a missiles in Iraq is like searching for a

needle in a hay stack... it takes LoTS of time...

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You can't disregard those rights when something like 9/11 happens because then you're

no better than a terrorist yourself

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It's that of be killed... I don't mind lowering/disregarding their rights when it depends

whether or not my friend's dad will come home or he'll be killed by some stupid Arab that

thinks Allah told him to kill..

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And they'll have many many people with stupid answers like that all night long. Then

you get Made In Canada, where a Canadian goes into the US and asks Americans questions about

Canadians and other stuff... yet no one knows any of the answers. That to me says lack of

intelligence. I could also point out the serveral Americans on here who can't spell worth

crap and then blame it on where they are from. I never said anyone was better than America,

I just said we mind our own business.

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Because some random American doesn't know about Canada and other random topics, that makes

you believe we are uneducated? Man, people can't spell correctly, damn, that proves America

is the shittiest and most uneducated place there is!!! Grow up! You make all these claims

but you're people still cross our borders with nothing but dreams of living in America...

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And neel, playing the race card was just plain wrong. We don't hate arabs nor do we

hate muslims...we hate oppressive bullies and they come in all colors. If people don't quit

playing the race card then racism will never go away...and we all have to start with

ourselves when attempting to wipe out that particular blight from the earth.

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To them it doesn't matter, they live in fear of us, we lead the world, and they find every

execuse to make it sound like we are horrible people.. but yet they envy us.. they wish of

living here and work their entire lives to come here one day...

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If the US had just gone in and dealt with the "hoodlums", no one would have

complained. However they killed innocent people, and left a country in ruins. A single

sniper would have done the trick, or a CIA assassin, but no.. you had to leave a path of

death and destruction.

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Illegal, unless in a time of war... but why are you so stuck of this innocent Iraqi family

that gets hit by accident? Why don't I hear complaints about those 2000+ dead people in NYC

or those onboard the two planes (Pentagon and Pennsylvania).. those people are just as

innocent as the ones there, so what makes you care so much for them.. I know, ITS YOUR HATE

TOWARD AMERICA... IT MAKES US BAD AND EVERYONE ELSE GOOD!

It being 12:18 now and me running low on liquor.. I'm going to sleep!..

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Originally posted here by cheyenne1212

We have freedom to do what we want when we want. We have freedom to stand out in the middle of a street and say awful things about are President, yet if you go to their country they will shoot you down just because they don't like where you come from.

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I know some would consider it nit-picking and not quite on topic, but i just felt compelled to add in my 2 cents of insight. While we might not fear our government attacking us for speaking out against it, many people have feared for their lives and safety because they openly expressed their oppinions about the conflict in Iraq. People have had their tires slashed, been spat on, and im sure in some cases not widely pulicized beaten for not agreeing with the war. Its pretty sad when (at times) our own fellow citizens are more of a threat to our freedom's and liberties than criminals and terrorists.

Yes, syini666 that does happen to people sometimes when other people do not agree with them, and it is a sad thing. However, what I was saying, was that we can speak out, and not have to worry about secret police knocking on our door in the middle of the night. Other countries do have to worry about that.

Jaguar all I can say is:

Very Nicely said.

So I didn't "quite get it" ? Now at least try to put some enrgy here and read the posts with less ubjected to anger etc, just because my point is different. I said VERY clearly in my first post I don't agree with terrorists. i also said VERY clearly altough I know other countries do the same and that ****, I was going to discuss the US here. Maybe it's unfair to put the US on it's own all the time, I don't care. I want this to be discussed because of all nations the US is a very important one and because they are they should at least behave in what they do. I'm not discussing the terrorists here. Now to make it a little easier for you I'll start this quoting thing again:

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These terrorists wanted to attack us because they hate us, because we are not forced to worship Allah or whoever else they worship. We have freedom to do what we want when we want. We have freedom to stand out in the middle of a street and say awful things about are President, yet if you go to their country they will shoot you down just because they don't like where you come from.

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On one side you say you don't want to sitick the racust thing on it, but here you say something different. The misconception that this is a "Jihad". You say, cheyenne1212, they kill so many people to get people to believe in Allah ? Because that's what a Jihad is. It's in their sacred book to spread the religion as far as they can and if neccesary with the means of a war. This is not a "Jihad". The US is to far away for that. They just hate America and their way of free-market, dirty tricks we all seem to know off etc etc. The "terrorists" being muslim fundamentalists isn't the issue. That's the reason they have the lifestyle the have now and that's where they get their mental strength from. It's NOT the reason to attack the US. The issue about geting shot for yelling bad things about the president is not the issue because I was taking about the US. The US who, ON A SIDENOTE, arrested a german guy for comparing Bush with Hitler.

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I see two countries invaded by the US. The first was a PROVEN haven for terrorists (I'm pretty sure it wasn't a coincidence that Usama Bin Laden lived in Afghanistan) and was ruled by a repressive regime where the slightest infraction WOULD GET YOU SHOT OR HUNG. Women were not even allowed to go to school. How would the female members of your family feel if a bunch of religious fanatics took away their ability to get an education and seek gainful employment? How would YOU feel if you saw your mom forced to BEG FOR FOOD on the streets? If giving a group of people back the rights to education and self government is "ruining" a country, then I'm ready to ruin the world my friend.

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"You" were fighting terrorists. The US should mind their own buisiness in other countries politics if they want to stay out of fire. By doing all kinds off stuff they get themselves into problems, now the US should also be able to handle critisism.
I made a note at the beginning, I wasn't even discussion terrorists nor the war on terrorism. The threads title is constitution. Whatever proof their was, you exterminated an entire nation. The very first intend of bombing Afghanistan is to *murdered* as many people as had died on 9/11. It was an action of revenge. They wanted to destroy the terrorist camps by more effective means, but they failed. That doesn't mather, the fact is they still ruined millions of peoples life. The US did.

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On to country number two...can anyone here spell OPPRESSIVE REGIME? It's a country where saying ONE BAD WORD against the leadership could get you and your family exterminated. A country where women could not walk down the street without fear because the head honcho's son had a reputation for grabbing women off the street and raping them if he found them the least bit attractive. These guys looked at torture the same way that the rest of the world looks at basketball or soccer....they did it just to get their kicks. So I guess if you are a sadist then hell yeah...we ruined that country too.

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The opressive regime was, like I said in the first post, I nice side effect. The intentions of the war were to get those hidden weapons of mass-destruction who could be used against the US. Now many people died there, but no weapons and no Sadaam yet. That doesn't mather, the fact is they still ruined millions of peoples life. The US did.

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Yes, my government is FAR FROM PERFECT....but at least I can say that without fear of reprisals from death squads and other mercenary types. There is corruption here, but the people of the US have the ability to root such things out and remove them....something that every country in the world deserves to be able to do. After all...all men (and women) were created equal.

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If you go on the racist thing again, why shouldn't the entire globe be allowed to be ruled by muslims ? Because you think this system is best because you grew up in it, you didn't live in the other culture so you can't judge as I can't judge the intelligence of americans.

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And neel, playing the race card was just plain wrong. We don't hate arabs nor do we hate muslims...we hate oppressive bullies and they come in all colors. If people don't quit playing the race card then racism will never go away...and we all have to start with ourselves when attempting to wipe out that particular blight from the earth.

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I know it was wrong and I did it on purpose. Not to call you a racist, but many many people thing like this: muslim==terrorist. So this card is an issue and so I brought it up.

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I guess my "proactive point of view" is a wee bit too much for some of you people to handle. But tell me this...what are we to do when we see cruelty and injustice visited upon our fellow human beings....human beings who have had the power to control their own destinies stripped away from them? Turn a blind eye and thank God that it is happening to someone else? ANYTIME I see wrongs being done that cry out to be righted and something needs to be done I have to ask "If not me...who? If not now....when?"

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I don't want to discuss those terms you all have like "proactive point of view" I learned in the previous thread wich was about these thing, you actually have a point. The point in this thread is the way you treat people after they are caught or treat a nation wich is "suspected" of "possibly" hosting "some" terrorists. The ignore human rights as much as the terrorists do if not more. This is a different thread and I didn't want to discuss this **** again. Please read the subject.

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So neel, HTRegz, and all the rest who don't quite "get it" let me say this....if I'm walking down a street and see you getting the crap kicked out of you by a bunch of hoodlums, I'm going to do something about it. Be it calling the police or jumping in and getting my own knuckles bloodied, I'm sticking up for the underdog. To be quite frank, if or when the day comes that one of you becomes the underdog, I seriously doubt that you'll bitch like you have here if I try to save your ass at the risk of my own...but then again you never know, some people just can't be satisfied.

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People have a reason to "beat up" someone. You would not interfere if you could not win, because that would be plain stupid. You together with almost all people on earth are to "pussy" to come help me if I was beaten up by 10 people and you were on yer own. Only if you got some B12 bomber handy in yer pocket (so I'm comparing with the US now) you would interfere and you wouldn't interfere because you liked me, but just because I was loosing. Maybe I was the badguy trying to rape on of the gangs little daughter and they could stop me just in time.

=======

Part 2:

To jaguar291: you got the same thing alenb has.

So you got proof and so you picked the right country... Don't you see what you are saying here ? Besides I didn't see the prove of terrorist camps in Afghanistan (only some fague lowsy pictures, wich weren't worth ****), you ruined the ENTIRE country, not the terrorists.

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There's a time for diplomacy and there's a time for action... we did our jobs abiding to the Geneva Convention but when our soldiers are being pecked off 1-2 a day, it gets ridiculous.. we need to play on the same grounds as the enemy or those numbers will go up higher and higher....

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Your soldiers getting killed has nothing to do with the treatment of prisoners of war. You got killed because the enemy was strong to, and your soldiers less strong then they appear to be in warmovies on television. The prinsoners didn't kill those soldiers and if they did, how can unarmed people be a threat to an army ? Sounds like the armies fault to me.

Much respect for all soldiers though, but that quote was just wrong.

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And how have we exactly taken away their appropriate rights? We've fed them, sheltered them, gave them the right to speak, and we're holding military tribunals (soon enough) to prove guilt or innocence.

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They were caught and held without reason and some other things you knew if you read the articles. Also the US murdered nations with no good reason.

ok, because your post is so long and generally filled with the same **** I don't agree with I'll stop bitching at you because it's not going to help me prove my point anyway. Again, I'm discussing the US and I know 2000+ people got killed in the US, it's not the issue in this thread. Sniping is wrong, killing a million is wronger.

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To them it doesn't matter, they live in fear of us, we lead the world, and they find every execuse to make it sound like we are horrible people.. but yet they envy us.. they wish of living here and work their entire lives to come here one day...

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And quit the ****ing patriotism fool. Don't hide about you "fellow" americans. Show some more self thought out things instead of quoting President speeches all over. Try to be objective for a change.
I know you're going to quote me on this because "you didn't quote president speeches" or something. Think again if yer going to post that.

You know Ogres are very friendly ?

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have a degree in military history...specializing in strategy and tactics. While I do not call myself an expert, one thing I learned is that the U.S. has made plenty of mistakes in the past by not "adapting" to the enemy.

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tho I can not say I have a degree in it I have studied politics both Irish and worldwide for 2yrs and I think that this has some bearing.
Yes perhaps it is a more difficult approach to seek out individual members of an originisation - but as ZoneWalker said we must indeed do so in order to preserve our own standings as civilised people. Surely by sinking to their level we are becoming no better than they are?
The only difference is one group calls it terrorism while another calls it war.

I agree that what happened in America was an atrositie and the people who committed such a crime should be punished - I do not however feel that the death penalty is a suitable punishment as these people have demonstrated they are more then willing to die for their cause and will only create more martyers but that is for another discussion.

However I do feel that it should be only the people responsable and not their entire nation that is punished.

For example - the IRA has been responsible for bombings and killings on the mainland UK yet the world would be up in arms if England started slaughtering those people in N.Ireland - take a look at reports about bloody sunday and the problems it caused and that was a far far far smaller scale than what is going on in Afghanistan.

You can not punich a whole nation for one groups crimes - yes they need to be brought to justice but the tactics being used to do so tm are doing nothing for Americas popularity - and yes I am aware even the Prime minister here is backing the US
but at present that decision has cost him alot of his following and has contributed to the death of at least 1 mp

The only reason that Bush has not commited political suicide over this matter is that the vast majority of people in the US are blinded by their hatred and do not see the way in which this is being handled by those in power.

Now all thise is my own humble opinion and I do not mean to offend - yes perhaps I would feel differently if it was my own country & perhaps I do not know the whole troy as I can only say what I see in the media. But I do feel that the US goverment has alot to answer for in the way they have attempted to capture those responsible. I also hope I hve made clear that I feel those responsible have to be brought to justice but while being fair to the rest of their country

v_Ln

************second part added after seeing Jag's post********************

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bin Laden himself claiming responsiblity is not enough proof for you?

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yes but how do you he did?? you know because you have seen it on TV in newspapers etc - but you dont know for sure - ever hear the expression 'dont believe everythign you hear in the nes?' - I am not saying he isn't responsible and most likly is but I just thought i would raise the point that we as a whole rely on the media way too much for information and are very easily swayed by it

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we as the world's big

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I'm sorry but this comment strikes me as out & out arrogance - if look at it on a global timescale America is really the baby brother - yes you maybe one of the super powers but historically America as it is today is a fairly new country.

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There's a time for diplomacy and there's a time for action... we did our jobs abiding to the
Geneva Convention but when our soldiers are being pecked off 1-2 a day, it gets ridiculous..
we need to play on the same grounds as the enemy or those numbers will go up higher and
higher....

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so by the same train of thought you feel that the English soldiers in N.Ireland should have started killing people purely on their religion? They were being picked off in 1's & 2's but did that give them the right to kill people purely because they thought they might be terrorists?

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And all of you expect us to help you... to let you in to our country, to help you when
someone attacks, to give grants for tourissm...
brother

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Well you expect us to help you...to let you in our Country to help you when someone attacks you??? so why shouldn't we expect the same???

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I'm an American and there isn't a shot in hell that I'd give up what I have in America to
live with a bunch of dim-witted fools such as yourself..

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dim witted?? once again grouping entire nations together because of theb actions (in this case words) of a few - really starting to become a habit for America isnt it???

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But when Japan attacked, we didn't want anything else

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and the fact thatv the american goverment knew about the attack on pearly harbour before it was due to happen and did nothing to stop it to give themselves an excuse to enter the war does not in any way take away from what you were saying.....also many noted historians have concluded that even without the Americans joing either o the WW's the out come would have been the same - it would perhaps have only taken longer

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we lead the world

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in what arrogance?? please think beofre you type you do not lead the world - what truely has america provided for the world other than the osbornes?? (who are british) What great writers has america produced that could rival the likes of shakepeare, Orwell, Shaw?? do they have painters to rival De Vinci or Michelangelo?? composores who can claim to be better than Beethoven??

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Illegal, unless in a time of war... but why are you so stuck of this innocent Iraqi family
that gets hit by accident? Why don't I hear complaints about those 2000+ dead people in NYC
or those onboard the two planes (Pentagon and Pennsylvania).. those people are just as
innocent as the ones there, so what makes you care so much for them.. I know, ITS YOUR HATE
TOWARD AMERICA... IT MAKES US BAD AND EVERYONE ELSE GOOD!

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I dont hate America - i quite like it even lived there a while and really enjoyed myself - and do not get me wrong I am not blaming the whole of America for your goverments actions - I am simply saying IMHO the way they have gone about trying to capture those responsible is wrong. And I do also feel bad for those who died in 9/11 and all the other times since - I truely feel for their families and can understand the hatred that has formed since then - but in order to be better than those who committed such crimes we can not stoop to their level

jaguar291 mate no offence meant - i can see your very patriotic person and i commend you for it - but you need to seriously take a step back and look at your country and its place in the world as a whole - instead of looking out through rose tinted glasses

v_Ln

neel...just one thing...don't quote someone else and then jump my **** over it like you did in the first part of your latest post. Your views have been duely noted and if your country ever gets in trouble, I promise to protest any aid that my country might try to give you.

BTW...why is it that you hate America and it's citizens so much?


[edit] Calling me a Pussy is a bit drastic...you don't know me my friend nor do you know what I am capable of. You sit on your high horse and judge me "pussy" just because I am an American, yet in doing so you are doing one of the very things that you complain about. A wee bit hypocritical in my opinion, but since I am only an American I guess my opinion really doesn't matter, does it? [/edit]

you still didn't get me
I don't hate america or it's citizens. I wanted do discuss these issues I heard of about the US, who is like the most powerfull nation on earth now. They just did some bad things of wich I think shouldn't be tolerated from a nation like the US. They have enough power to do it the right way and they even agreed on it. I wanted to hear other points of view on only that small thing, because imo they are facts and can't be ignored. I didn't plan to get in another rant about terrorists and who's fault it all is and whatever.

And please don't get your feet on dutch ground if we're in trouble. I don't want your help.

p.s.
I don't understand what you said about

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neel...just one thing...don't quote someone else and then jump my **** over it like you did in the first part of your latest post

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You say, allenb, they kill so many people to get people to believe in Allah ?

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Thats what I am talking about.....you put someone elses words in my mouth. I don't mind you quoting me, just make sure it's something that I said when you do it.

You don't have to worry about me getting my feet on dutch ground....your attitudes have removed any desire I might have to see your country. Do us all a favor and don't defile US soil with your toes either. As for this conversation, I can see that it's just another "lets bash the US" festival so I'm going to try to stay out of it. I hope that you get great satisfaction from your thread neel, it's painfully obvious that you enjoy what you are doing. I should have known that trying to participate in a conversation with someone from a country where shooting up was legal would be an exercise in futility as evidenced by your inability to keep track of who said what.

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They were caught and held without reason and some other things you knew if you read the articles. Also the US murdered nations with no good reason.

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These people were enemy combatants... which is perfectly legal, read the Geneva Convention buddy... we did not murder anyone... we were attacked and threatened, we took the necassary actions to prevent more deaths on our part...

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And quit the ****ing patriotism fool. Don't hide about you "fellow" americans. Show some more self thought out things instead of quoting President speeches all over. Try to be objective for a change.
I know you're going to quote me on this because "you didn't quote president speeches" or something. Think again if yer going to post that.

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I know this useless, I know that you're not going to change what you believe and I won't either.... but I feel should I point out that I believe Bush is an idiot.. I will never intentionally quote him nor attempt to sound like him... I love my country and will support it to my death....

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I'm sorry but this comment strikes me as out & out arrogance - if look at it on a global timescale America is really the baby brother - yes you maybe one of the super powers but historically America as it is today is a fairly new country.

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What does my country's age have to do with anything... we have the world's longest running and most stable government, our economy is well off better than most competing nations, and we have yet to be defeated (truly) in war... my country's age has nothing to do with how powerful or how great it is....

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yes but how do you he did?? you know because you have seen it on TV in newspapers etc - but you dont know for sure - ever hear the expression 'dont believe everythign you hear in the nes?' - I am not saying he isn't responsible and most likly is but I just thought i would raise the point that we as a whole rely on the media way too much for information and are very easily swayed by it

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I'm assuming you're the kind of person that even if he told you it to your face, you would still deny and claim some kind of excuse...

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and the fact thatv the american goverment knew about the attack on pearly harbour before it was due to happen and did nothing to stop it to give themselves an excuse to enter the war does not in any way take away from what you were saying.....also many noted historians have concluded that even without the Americans joing either o the WW's the out come would have been the same - it would perhaps have only taken longer

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The American government did NOT know that an attack would occur, they knew something was going on but disregarded it as not a threat... and those historians you speak of are random people who make up random thoughts like that... it is in history books (not one but most college accepted books worldwide) that if the US had not entered the war when Hitler made his push toward Paris, Europe would have fell within hours...

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I am simply saying IMHO the way they have gone about trying to capture those responsible is wrong. And I do also feel bad for those who died in 9/11 and all the other times since - I truely feel for their families and can understand the hatred that has formed since then - but in order to be better than those who committed such crimes we can not stoop to their level

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Judge and judge... all people do is blame America for everything... what have we done wrong... we attacked a nation that habored terrorists, we attacked a country run by a man who killed his own people, a man that invaded Kuwait, a man that wanted to launch SCUDs at Isreal... we took out two nations that were nothing but scum....

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jaguar291 mate no offence meant - i can see your very patriotic person and i commend you for it - but you need to seriously take a step back and look at your country and its place in the world as a whole - instead of looking out through rose tinted glasses

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I'll admit we aren't perfect... but I still don't see that we did something wrong.. we are taking care of problems that would only escalate over time... you think Saddam was going to leave everyone alone? Do you believe al-Quieda (misspelled?) was going to sit in a cave and play chess? No, these people were planning attacks and we took the necessary actions to eliminate the threat...

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Your views have been duely noted and if your country ever gets in trouble, I promise to protest any aid that my country might try to give you.

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But then he'll be back.. bitching that we didn't help, making accusations that we don't take enough action and so on....

jag291

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Thats what I am talking about.....you put someone elses words in my mouth. I don't mind you quoting me, just make sure it's something that I said when you do it.

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I'm sorry for that, that should've been cheyenne1212. I corrected it.

Well I think this is going to be my last post in this thread. I'm getting tired of reading the long essays. lol

No matter what I will always stand by my country. I will stand by my president. We attack these countries because we must. Because its a game of surviving. If we allow these terrorists to thrive in countries then it makes the world a more dangerous place. We are defending our selves.

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You can not punich a whole nation for one groups crimes - yes they need to be brought to justice but the tactics being used to do so tm are doing nothing for Americas popularity

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When the leaders of these countries refuse to co-operate, and continue to hide terrorists then they must be dealt with.

We would like to be able to capture the people responsible for these attacks vahallen, but its a little hard to go into a country like Afghanistan, or Iraq and ask their president to hand over the terrorists. This is what it takes to eliminate terrorists. When you look at Afghanistan, and Iraq there are a lot of regular civilians who would be more than happy to take out an American. Therefore we must go into these countries in force and find all of these people.

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Judge and judge... all people do is blame America for everything...

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I'm not blamming america for anything - all I am saying is the goverment in America should target those responsible for the attacks against their nation and not the nation as a whole. I have no personnal problem with America - however I do fell that trampling a complete country under foot while searching for a terorist group is wrong

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I'm assuming you're the kind of person that even if he told you it to your face, you would still deny and claim some kind of excuse...

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I'm not making up any kind of excuse for him & in all truth my comment there was a lil off topic. I was simply using Bin Laden as an example of how everyone (well the vast majority) - Americans, British, etc etc believe what they hear in the media.....Bin Laden was just an example I was refering to media stories as a whole - sorry for the confussion.

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The American government did NOT know that an attack would occur, they knew something was going on but disregarded it as not a threat...

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This is something that will remain to be very hard to prove our disprove until all secret documents from that time are released - which I doubt they will be even if they havn't been destroyed by now.

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and those historians you speak of are random people who make up random thoughts like that... it is in history books (not one but most college accepted books worldwide) that if the US had not entered the war when Hitler made his push toward Paris, Europe would have fell within hours...

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Actually durring my time studying the rise of natzism and WWI / WWII or text books made very little mention of the American role in the war - the focus only tended to shift to the American contribution after the war had ended. Also the WWII was a war of attrition - these wars are not won or lost in hours - so I feel your last comment is completly unfounded

v_Ln

I have to say... I totally agree with Valhallen on every point he has made, can't put it better myself.

However Jaguar one thing you said

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These people were enemy combatants... which is perfectly legal, read the Geneva Convention buddy... we did not murder anyone... we were attacked and threatened, we took the necassary actions to prevent more deaths on our part...

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This may not be strictly true... some of those people at Guantanamo bay were captured in Pakistan.... not a million miles from Afghanistan I know.... a couple of those folks at Guantanamo are from the UK... muslims yes, but still from the UK. According to the families those captured british people were on holiday in Pakistan... now I don't know if that is true or not... what I do know is the US is currently refusing to send those people back to the UK to be judged according to British law... why is that? Why not let your supposed allies deal with its own subjects?

As for murder... that depends upon what you class bombing civilians as... by the looks of things and in light of 9/11 most Americans class the taking of civilian lives as murder... so what about the civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq that have been bombed?

But this is getting off the original point which a lot of us are trying to discuss... we're NOT arguing with your right to go and make yourselves safe against a terrorist organisation... we're NOT saying that you cannot seek out those who wronged you.... we ARE saying... do it like civilised human beings, seek out those responsible and don't trample a country underfoot just because you can. To quote v_Ln

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those responsible have to be brought to justice but while being fair to the rest of their country

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Z

Just one point for this one....fallowing or breaking the Ganevea convention has nothing to do with the rule of law...especaly considering the world court is purely volintary and that the US isn't part of it. Look at the convention as more of gidelines then rules and you will be much closer to the truth. So in detaining forign nationals that are not subject to our constitution (that only applies to US citizans) we can do what ever the hell we feel like (this is true for any country). If you don't like british (or whatever) citizans held for secrate tribunals and possably the death sentance, don't extradite them to the US and arrest any US troop theat tries to kidnap them. Humm but your goverments happely extrodited them...thats the dirty littel secrate of the world, the germans/british/pakistanies/french, wanted to be rid of these guys but didn't have the balls t odo it themselvs so they let the us do the dirty work..then turned around to their citizans and said..see how evil the US is, vote for me again.

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Originally posted here by jaguar291
The American government did NOT know that an attack would occur, they knew something was going on but disregarded it as not a threat... and those historians you speak of are random people who make up random thoughts like that... it is in history books (not one but most college accepted books worldwide) that if the US had not entered the war when Hitler made his push toward Paris, Europe would have fell within hours...


jag291

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Umm goatta call you on this one Jag, Europ fell long before the US entered the war, britian was the only hold out of the old world, nad the ysurvived only because of some briliant use of duble agents...as for Peral Harbor, well we had decoded the Japanese code months before..if we didn't know about the attack it was due to gross incompatince on the US side. (there may have been some of that as warrnings of the attack where delayed by radio operators on break). But I find it curious that all of our important navel vesels (the carrier groups) where out doing manuvers, while relics that would stir up a lot of public sentament but had littel stratigic value where in port. Also look up project "ever green" a praposed invasion of cuba offered by the pentagon during the kennady administration. It was declassified in 2001 and for any one who thinks the goverment would never sacrifice US citizans for the good of the country it makes an eye opening read.

Once again vahallen, we are targeting those responsible for the attacks, but like I said earlier, when the whole country is harboring terrorists it makes it a little hard for us to just go after them.

Zonewalker, it is a sad thing when innocent civillians do die during a war but sometimes it does happen. We do not intentionally kill these civillians but mistakes do happen. War is never a good thing but it does happen, and when it happens people die including civilians. Thats how its always been.

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Actually durring my time studying the rise of natzism and WWI / WWII or text books made very little mention of the American role in the war - the focus only tended to shift to the American contribution after the war had ended. Also the WWII was a war of attrition - these wars are not won or lost in hours - so I feel your last comment is completly unfounded

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Umm... after spending about an hour reading and talking with other World War II knowledgables (new word?).. my information is correct for the most part... let me expand on this:

When we entered the war in '41, Roosevelt and Churchill made an agreement that all Allied forces would first concentrate on Nazi Germany, the larger threat at the time. Like bballad said, England was the only stronghold left for the Allied forces in Europe when we entered the war and they were running low on supplies. We came with the ability to mass produce weapons and vehicles and we supplied them with both and furthermore troops... we then, along with the Brits, dropped over 2 million men on Normandy over a 90 day period and pushed east taking France and so on until the end of the war... on the other side of Europe, the Soviets were barely keeping up with the Germans but when we entered, Germany was forced to fight a war on two sides.. Germany then mobilized a lot of its troops toward the west where US and UK forces were pushing toward Berlin, thus giving the opening for the Soviets to fight and move the Germans back, which eventually led to the capture of Berlin by the Soviets... soon after Germany declared an unconditional surrender to the Allied forces. As you can see that if the US had not entered the war, England would have been taken and eventually the Soviets would have fallen... it was the US's ability to mass produce weapons and vehincles and our enormous amount of troops that led to the Allies's victory in WWII....

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This may not be strictly true... some of those people at Guantanamo bay were captured in Pakistan.... not a million miles from Afghanistan I know.... a couple of those folks at Guantanamo are from the UK... muslims yes, but still from the UK. According to the families those captured british people were on holiday in Pakistan... now I don't know if that is true or not... what I do know is the US is currently refusing to send those people back to the UK to be judged according to British law... why is that? Why not let your supposed allies deal with its own subjects?

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Since I don't see the UK making a big fuss over this incident (pending it being true) I'm guessing that the US has proven to the UK that these people were in fact somehow dangerous... I don't know the specifics but maybe its that in a time of war we can hold people we suspect to be dangerous at our camps?!

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But this is getting off the original point which a lot of us are trying to discuss... we're NOT arguing with your right to go and make yourselves safe against a terrorist organisation... we're NOT saying that you cannot seek out those who wronged you.... we ARE saying... do it like civilised human beings, seek out those responsible and don't trample a country underfoot just because you can. To quote v_Ln

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those responsible have to be brought to justice but while being fair to the rest of their country

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Afghanistan ran a state sponsored terrorist organization... we took out the Taliban and attempted to rid Afghanistan of al-Quieda.. as for Iraq, we took a man out of power who was a threat to his own people, the man killed his own people in the early 90's and invaded Kuwait. The man was a threat to the inernational community and since the state supported, we took care of the threat.. yes, yes, I'll give you the fact that innocent people died... its war, people will always die, you cannot stop that... but we did the correct thing.

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Umm goatta call you on this one Jag, Europ fell long before the US entered the war, britian was the only hold out of the old world, nad the ysurvived only because of some briliant use of duble agents

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Yup, my bad, messed up a few details... but corrected them in this post.. see above...

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as for Peral Harbor, well we had decoded the Japanese code months before..if we didn't know about the attack it was due to gross incompatince on the US side. (there may have been some of that as warrnings of the attack where delayed by radio operators on break). But I find it curious that all of our important navel vesels (the carrier groups) where out doing manuvers, while relics that would stir up a lot of public sentament but had littel stratigic value where in port.

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I agree that it happened because of error on our side but it happened which is still an attack on a neutral side (not really, we were selling tanks and weapons to the Brits) and that led us to enter the war...

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Also look up project "ever green" a praposed invasion of cuba offered by the pentagon during the kennady administration. It was declassified in 2001 and for any one who thinks the goverment would never sacrifice US citizans for the good of the country it makes an eye opening read.

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I have no doubts that the US would sacrifice US citizens for the good of the country... I'll check this out sooner or later..

jag291

cheyenne... yep you're right civilians do and have always died in war, I can't argue with you on that... I realise mistakes do happen and that they are always a sad thing. However would you agree that we should always at least do our best to minimise (at least) civilian casualties? If we do agree on that then, that's all I'm saying - that we should act like civilised humans... yes wars happen, yes people die... sometimes these things happen for good reason and yes sometimes violent action is necessary.... I agree with you - but it should never be the case that we lose our own humanity, sense of justice or morality whilst doing this.

Jaguar... the UK is making something of a fuss about it....most of it is behind the scenes I'll grant you that but I can guarantee that a fuss is being made - it's gone political at the moment because of the UK/US past relations but this issue has put a strain on current diplomatic ties. Whilst I agree that during times of war things can be a bit different, a lot of people in the UK have had their noses put out of joint because during this war on terror the US and UK were supposed to be allies. To some people in the UK it looks like you don't trust us to deal with the suspects who are our responsibility (those that are British subjects).

As far as Afghanistan and Iraq... the fact that the governments of those countries were corrupt is not in question, the fact that the world is probably a better place without them is not in question. The question is did the US (and the UK and your other allies) do enough to minimise civilian casualties, did we conduct ourselves in a proper fashion during the war? Like I've been trying to point out in all of my replies that's one thing some people are concerned about. when people hear US citizens saying 'we were justified in doing it' or 'we did the right thing' yeah broadly speaking we may have done the right thing.... question is did we also do the right thing by trying to rectify any mistakes made whilst bombing the ass off the country? Some people don't think you (perhaps I should say us since the UK are also your allies in this) have done enough to rectify any mistakes made.

Sadly I don't (at the moment) have time to go into a really lengthy reply (being at work) but I'm finding this quite an interesting conversation . Bballad - I'd like to take you up about talking about the geneva convention later if I may - I'd like to hear your thoughts on something.

Z

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Originally posted here by jaguar291

When we entered the war in '41, Roosevelt and Churchill made an agreement that all Allied forces would first concentrate on Nazi Germany, the larger threat at the time. Like bballad said, England was the only stronghold left for the Allied forces in Europe when we entered the war and they were running low on supplies. We came with the ability to mass produce weapons and vehicles and we supplied them with both and furthermore troops... we then, along with the Brits, dropped over 2 million men on Normandy over a 90 day period and pushed east taking France and so on until the end of the war... on the other side of Europe, the Soviets were barely keeping up with the Germans but when we entered, Germany was forced to fight a war on two sides.. Germany then mobilized a lot of its troops toward the west where US and UK forces were pushing toward Berlin, thus giving the opening for the Soviets to fight and move the Germans back, which eventually led to the capture of Berlin by the Soviets... soon after Germany declared an unconditional surrender to the Allied forces. As you can see that if the US had not entered the war, England would have been taken and eventually the Soviets would have fallen... it was the US's ability to mass produce weapons and vehincles and our enormous amount of troops that led to the Allies's victory in WWII....

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That is basicly right on, although russia had woken up before we entered and may have beateb the Germans with out US intervention, this would have been a *very* bad thing and is part of why we focused on Europ first. Then when the russians turned towards Japan we droped the bobmb t okeep them out of that side of the war. If you spend time looking deep into history you can see the cold war being faught in the middle of WWII.

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Originally posted here by jaguar291

I have no doubts that the US would sacrifice US citizens for the good of the country... I'll check this out sooner or later..

jag291

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Let me sumerize project ever green for those who havent read t yet. This was just post bay of pigs and the pentagon was foaming at the mouth to get their shot at Cuba and Castro but relised that the US would never go for a war in Cuba and the Soviets would come running if we attacked (not to mention the nuks that would be lobed at us.). So we came up with a plan to paint Cuba in such a bad light that the US citizns would beg for war and the world comunity, includeing russia would let us do what ever we wanted. The plan called for takeing anti-Castro cubans and useing them to attack Miami (pretending to be pro-Castro terrorists/state sponserd from Cuba). they where to attack soft targets, especaily high rise office buildings, and the ywhere to acheive at minimum a specified number of civilian casualties. This would upset the US citizans and the world so much that we could then go invade Cuba. Kennady shot the plan down and removed the secratary of defense who proposed it (he was republican), that defense secratary has ties to Cheny and Rumsfeild.

We do do our best zonewalker to try and not kill any civilians, but it does happen. It would be very nice if civiliians never died. I believe that if we weren't trying to minimize civilian casualties then there would be thousands of civilians dead. But we do try to minimize their loss.