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I don't....honestly. I believe that if you took an "atheist" to the top of a twenty story building and threw them off that they would cry out for God, Allah, Budda or some deity to save them. The one problem is that I have yet to find an "atheist" whose beliefs in atheism are firm enough to help me prove this theory....any takers out there?
yes... i am atheist... and i wouldn't cry out for help from some higher being
I'll grab the rope allen if you bring the duc tape.
Then on the count of three we'll throw him off a building and see what he says :fu: lol
I tend to think that an atheist would cry out for some higher being to save them given a situation that you presented. I think that they would do in hopes of one of these people being true.
there isn't anything wrong with being atheist, it doesn't mean anything bad.. I just don't believe in a higher being.
There's a lot of "pious, religious" people out there who are unethical and don't follow the Golden Rule. If someone chooses not to believe in a higher being and they truly treat their fellow beings in an ethical, humane way would they be "evil"? Maybe instead of feeling responsible to a higher being, that person feels responsible to the greater good of society or the earth.
I choose to believe in a higher authority, that makes me no greater or lesser than someone who doesn't.
Isnt it hilarious that the atheist are always fighting against a God that they don't even believe exist??
I could'nt agree more with this statement!Quote:
I believe that if you took an "atheist" to the top of a twenty story building and threw them off that they would cry out for God, Allah, Budda or some deity to save them.
_____
On a side note, this one verse comes to mind when i think about those who are so adamant about there being no God:
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Ps. 14: 1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
Good thing Jesus offers everyone a way out, God knows i need it.
in no way do i disagree with the good morals of religion, and the great views they have on things... but when it comes to whether or not i truly, TRULY believe there is a higher being... i do not believe it
I know, I mean if it's supposedly not real, why does it seem like some of them get so offended when I go to school wearing my cross necklace? I mean come on give me a break! I had one moron come up to me in school and tell me that he didn't appreciate me pushing my religious ideals on him by wearing my necklace to school...Quote:
Isnt it hilarious that the atheist are always fighting against a God that they don't even believe exist??
...well, he got shut down, very, very, quickly... :D
Couldn't agree more Frame, and cheyenne1212 I got your ducktape, heh heh, that would be an interesting experiment.
"In god we trust"
--Peace :cool:
Wow I love how quickly the true "chistian" ideals and values come out with you clowns."Lets kill all the infadels." You guys would make the Talaban proud.
One more shineing example of why I am glade we have a seperation of church and state.
I'm an athiest and thats complete bullshit.. no, I'm not going to jump off a building to prove that I'm not going to say "God" or something like that when I'm falling to my death. But its the same thing all around, I bet you won't jump off a building to prove to me that there is a heaven either, huh smartass? Come on, I'll take you up on that..Quote:
Originally posted here by allenb1963
I don't....honestly. I believe that if you took an "atheist" to the top of a twenty story building and threw them off that they would cry out for God, Allah, Budda or some deity to save them. The one problem is that I have yet to find an "atheist" whose beliefs in atheism are firm enough to help me prove this theory....any takers out there?
I may not believe in some super-being sitting up in a cloud but I have common sense.. saying "Oh my god!!!" is also a common expression of shock or suprise... so even if I were falling to my death and I did say something like "Oh my god!!!", it would mean completely nothing...
And before you go on and tell me about your great Bible or Koran... do one thing.. prove to me that there is a God! Thats all I ask.. some solid proof... you do that, I'll gladly take you up on your suicide jump offer.. :)
jag291
Omg, of all the lamest... Lol, won't waste my time...Quote:
You guys would make the Talaban proud.
Am I offended, honestly yes. If you took those statements to heart, which I think you did. Thinking that we really wanted to do something like that, you're wrong. Too bad for you.
However, wouldn't you be a little heated if you were in my position. I mean come on gimme a break it's a cross for crying out loud.
Off to work, if you wanna throw this into another little cyber-debate, be my guest. :o
Allen...what exactly is your point here? You want someone to prove they don't believe in god by letting you throw them off a building? :confused: What would that prove? I would suggest that your local religious fanatic would be a little more likely to be willing to jump off a roof, then they can spend eternity in heaven w/ the god they killed themselves to prove their faith in :) Personally, I don't believe in god, or in an "afterlife" in heaven. So...I'm not in a big hurry to end this life, as it may be the only one I ever have.Quote:
Originally posted here by allenb1963
I don't....honestly. I believe that if you took an "atheist" to the top of a twenty story building and threw them off that they would cry out for God, Allah, Budda or some deity to save them. The one problem is that I have yet to find an "atheist" whose beliefs in atheism are firm enough to help me prove this theory....any takers out there?
Deb....even though I truly do not believe in atheists, I would have hoped that all of you would have been able to laugh at the sheer absurdity of the building statement. Has everyone with a sense of humor left AO????
SHEESH
An afterthought...
That statement tells me that you must believe in something or you would have been absolutely sure that you only have one life. The reincarnation "theory" recognises a higher power. ;)Quote:
So...I'm not in a big hurry to end this life, as it may be the only one I ever have.
I believe that I don't know what happens when I die. There may be another life, but I don't know what it is. I know what I can and can't believe, or do or don't believe, whichever way you'd like to look at it.
I understood the absurdity of the question. What I don't understand is why you feel the beliefs, or non-beliefs as it may be, of an atheist are somehow trivial, and can't really be a true belief? Why do you insist that they are somehow less true in their beliefs than a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Whatever. Why do you feel it is somehow okay to mock Atheism, when you would be up in arms if someone made the same type of derogatory post about Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Whatever? This is the point I was trying to make with my post. Read the tone of your original post, and the tones of the posts made to support yours, and substitute ANYTHING besides Atheism into it, and I would hope you will see why I personally found it an offensive and ignorant post. :)
Believe what you wish. Don't let that belief make you close-minded to what others around you might choose to believe. Open your mind, and you might be surprised at what you learn.
no, don't believe i did.... i don't get offended at all when people are religious, or show signs of their religion at any point and time. all my friends are strong religious believersQuote:
Originally posted here by THE RADICAL
some of them get so offended when I go to school wearing my cross necklace?
...well, he got shut down, very, very, quickly... :D
Quote:
no, don't believe i did.... i don't get offended at all when people are religious, or show signs of their religion at any point and time. all my friends are strong religious believers
uhhhh, dude I wasn't saying that you or anybody else here would be offended by that. It was something that did happen in my school that I felt was utterly ridiculous and just had to share. When I said that he got shut down very quickly, that ment that some people that were around when it happend that I didn't even know and I ranted him out so bad that when we were done, it was so interseting to see that he really didn't have anything to say after that, I found it quite humorous. :rolleyes:
I'm glad that you don't feel that way Plastic, and in no way did I intend to imply that in my last post. There are some people out there however, that do, and it's pretty sad.
I agree 100%, There has never been any solid proof "what-so-ever" of there being a God.Quote:
I may not believe in some super-being sitting up in a cloud but i have common sense..saying "Oh my god!!!" is also a common expression of shock or suprise...so even if i were falling to my death and i did say something like "Oh my god!!!",it would mean completely nothing...And before you go on and tell me about your great Bible or Koran...do one thing..prove to me that there is a God!Thats all i ask..some solid proof...you do that,I'll gladly take you up on your suicide jump offer.. jag291
Peoples beliefs are put into their minds at certain times in their lives and accepted as "true"
because some-one said so.I'ts all about "belief", People believed that witches exsisted and
black magic was real. We thought the earth was flat until some-one proved otherwise. Why
is it that proven science fully explained and documented is ridiculed by "god" believer's ?
Because it is in direct conflict with their "word" spoken as fact. I'ts all about the science
community having to prove that what they have discovered is fact beyond a doubt, and even
then it is "judged" wrong because it exposes the real truth behind natures creation. Evolution
is real and can be seen in all life forms that exsist today. Whoever says that "Man" has not
evolved from the apes is so narrow minded and ignorant to the obvious fact it is beyond a
joke. When someone questions the truth in God they are taken to and criticised, When a
religious person questions the facts of proven science it is seen as a sign of faith. Too many
double standards for mine. Why is it that "religon" is the main cause of most wars? Is it
"Gods way" to have so many of "his faith" die for what i see as no reason at all? How many
Gods are there? Obviously more than one because if there truly was a god all would be in
agreeance and there wouldn't be any conflict. For the people that had the foresight and true
genious to create such a powerful story to make people want to believe and be good in all
things they did, I'm certain that they would be totally disgusted at how religon is used to
judge others and be the catalyst to untold misery that is and has been the resolt of all
religious wars. I don't look down at people who believe in god and i respect that they have
faith in it, but i cant help but feel they have locked themselves into a narrow view of reality.
Let me say that if there wasn't religon there wouldn't be a war on terror, the world would be
more peaceful and millions wouldn't die to justify the words in a book.
This is my opinion and i have all the right in the world to express it, as being an athiest
i can see with an open mind all the termoil,hatred,pain and suffering that religon has caused
and will continue to cause in the world, it makes me mad that people can be so stupid to
support something that creates so much bloodshed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What about all the hope, joy, and happiness it has brought others?? Not to mention all of the people that are fed daily by those who are motivated by their religions to give this food to those who are starving.Quote:
This is my opinion and i have all the right in the world to express it, as being an athiest
i can see with an open mind all the termoil,hatred,pain and suffering that religon has caused
and will continue to cause in the world, it makes me mad that people can be so stupid to
support something that creates so much bloodshed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If giving food to a homeless man or a poor family makes me stupid, you can go ahead and make my new nickname Forrest Gump, cause id rather be the stupidest person on this planet than to have not done it at all.
I have to go with framwork on this one.
Without religion there would be a lot of people who would no longer fee motivated to help people. With all of the different religions in this world, about 95% of them believe in helping other people. Think of the hurricanes that hit honduras, then a bunch of missionaries, and other people went down there to help them rebuild there homes, and establish shelters. Therefore, I believe that the world is better with religions.
How come religion is taking the blame here for bloodshed? There are a bunch of other things beside religion that causes fights, and wars.
Quote:
What about all the hope,joy,and happiness it has brought others??Not to mention all of the people that are fed daily by those who are motivated by their religions to give this food to those who are starving.
FrameWork, Yes that is true, but there are also the same kind of helpful people that have
no association with religon at all that would go out of their way to help others.
I think that the amount of pain and suffering, loss of land and life that religon has created
far outweighs the good it has brought. Not only has it seperated the world as a community,
in some religons it has taught to totally hate the other. No matter how much the decent
people contribute to helping others, their will never be total and complete peace among
all humans, religon being the cause of this. While it might not be the main contributing
factor in war and poverty, it has proven to me to be a major part of the problem. I wish that
i was wrong in my way of thinking, but to put it into perspective, all that needs to be said is
would the world be in the current state of affairs if there was no religious tension? I strongly
doubt it.
ahh... and again, that's all because of the moral's of the church, and what they stand for. I'm atheist, and I do community service work all the time. Just because a religion does things to help feed other nations, doesn't necessarily mean there is a god. Btw, I don't in any way mean to put down anybody who does believe in god, I fully respect everybody's beliefs and opinions.
I don't have faith in a world beyond the one I live in now.. but it doesn't stop me from helping people... and don't you find it sad that people (who claim to believe in god and good will) actually need a reason to be kind and helpful to others? What happened to being nice for the sake of it.. ?Quote:
Without religion there would be a lot of people who would no longer fee motivated to help people. With all of the different religions in this world, about 95% of them believe in helping other people. Think of the hurricanes that hit honduras, then a bunch of missionaries, and other people went down there to help them rebuild there homes, and establish shelters. Therefore, I believe that the world is better with religions.
"Religion is used to keep the masses quiet." - Don't know who said it (guessing Voltaire?) but it pretty much summarizes my belief in religion and faith...
jag291
Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the masses".Quote:
"Religion is used to keep the masses quiet." - Don't know who said it (guessing Voltaire?)
Voltaire said something among those lines, though ("God is a comedian playing for an audience that is too afraid to laugh"?).
I fear this could seriously piss someone off....but I couldn't resist :p . (btw, this does *not* mean I don't like to argue...but I *had* to post this).
Has religion created all of the worlds problems.. no... It is not the cause of war or hatred, nor even a major contributor. Have the major organized religions made the world a better place? yes and no, by the same argument that can be used about the violence one can say that the people that have done a lot of good in the world would have done so with or with out religion.
I am going to let you in on a very big secret. This would have gotten my killed by various secrete societies in years past, and it is the crux of Gnostic, hassisian, illuminate, erisian, probably mason, satanist, KoC, teachings. This is the big truth that illuminated Buda’s and lamas through out history.
Man has a capacity for good or evil so great that it needs no supernatural explanation. Religion can be a tool that can be used for good or ill.
That is very frightening to many people, to relies that they helped or hurt someone else because they wanted to and not because some greater power made/tempted them to. Framework why did you help out the poor? not because the spirit of god filled you but because it made you feel good to help them. Why did Hitler and mason kill, not because Satan made them but because they wanted to and it made them feel good. That is a realization that scares people to the point that they refuse to believe it.
Why did the crusades happen? Do not blame religions, look to the men who used religion to make there grab for land and power. If the framework of organized religion wasn't there they would have used something else.
Keelez: if you don't like disscuessing contrivesial topics, or long discuessions, may I sugest that you stay out of Cosmos whos whole point of existanse is to argue points on the net.
My dear moron:Quote:
Keelez: if you don't like disscuessing contrivesial topics, or long discuessions, may I sugest that you stay out of Cosmos whos whole point of existanse is to argue points on the net.
I said in my post that my posting of that picture doesn't mean that "I don't like to argue", and I do enjoy discussing controversial topics and having long discussions. Please note that my post was never edited, therefore I did not add that after I read your post meaning that you just plain ignored it and decided to attack it anyway. Read the frikin post first! /rantQuote:
btw, this does *not* mean I don't like to argue...but I *had* to post this
*edit* Dammit! I wasted my 200th post on this?! I diddn't think that posting in cosmos counted! Crap!....ok I'm better now.
bballad...
hope you meant that about arguing points :D
I would argue the inclusion of several of those groups in there....Quote:
I am going to let you in on a very big secret. This would have gotten my killed by various secrete societies in years past, and it is the crux of Gnostic, hassisian, illuminate, erisian, probably mason, satanist, KoC, teachings. This is the big truth that illuminated Buda’s and lamas through out history.
the crux of gnostic philopsophy is as follows;
1. Self knowledge is knowledge of God, the self and the divine are indentical
2. Jesus came as a guide to open access to spiritual understanding rather than to save us from sin. When enlightenment is attained you become equal to Jesus in a spiritual sense
3. The physical world was created imperfect either by a moronic 'god' or evil 'god'. The true god is so outside of our comprehension that we will never know anything of him until we become enlightened. However this is not a gift, it is something we must work for.
In many respects Gnosticism is very similar to Buddhism and you can probably see why it was described as heresy by what we know as the Church. There are of course different interpretations of some of the gnostic texts much as there are differences of opinion concerning the New and Old testament
The crux of Masonic philosophy is that all men are brothers under God and that we should all look after each other. Essentially it's the biggest 'Frat' house on the face of the planet.... apologies to any Masons for being so flippant... :)
The crux of Illuminiati philosophy is very much unknown... the Bavarian order of the Illuminati is not widely documented - despite the book by Robert Wilson (which I should point out is a work of fiction... a good book, but still fiction)
Erisian philosophy.... well I hate to even put the two words together... the modern Erisian 'cult' stems from the Illuminatus book by Robert Wilson mentioned above - it's called Discordianism in there... Discordia being the latin form of Eris - the genealogy of Eris is confused but one variant indicates she is the daughter of Nyx (primal Goddess of the Night) and Erebus (primal God of Darkness) both of whom are offspring of Chaos. Discordianism is very much formed by the Illuminatus trilogy and whilst it might be interesting from a psychological point of view is inherently vapid. To quote from the Eris Discordia web site "Discordianism is either a religion disguised as a joke or a joke disguised as a religion". The original cult of Eris... is well... it's unsure if there even was one. The Greeks viewed Gods like Eris or Erebus very much as natural forces to be respected rather than as beings to be worshipped.
As for Hassassin philosophy (I am assuming you mean the forerunners of assassins!)... given that the 'Old Man of the Mountain' drugged followers to the eyeballs with hash and opium and then ordered the followers to kill people (usually Christian crusaders) I doubt their philosphy was anywhere near similar to your 'secret'. I'm probably going to regret saying this but the sect was an offshoot branch of Shia Islam i.e. they were muslims, it is more likely that they were fighting a guerilla war against the incursions of the Christian crusaders into their homelands at the time.
Probably the only thing you were right on in your post is that Satanists believe that
Although I daresay some of the Satanists round here may argue that one with me :)Quote:
Man has a capacity for good or evil so great that it needs no supernatural explanation. Religion can be a tool that can be used for good or ill.
Anyway..... sorry for the length of the post but I had to put in my 2penneth worth
Z
Ps can't comment on KoC... don't know anything about them.... are you refering to the Keepers of Chaos???
Well sure, it does make most people feel good to help someone in need, but to say it was'nt because of the spirit is not true in my case. Obvioulsy we won't get anywhere arguing this point, but where i have given something, the Spirit definately motivated me to do it, and i'm thankful He did. I'm not even really supposed to go around saying i did this or i did that for someone, but i'm sure we have all helped someone out from time to time. I was more making a point than trying to say that i have done a bunch of good things.Quote:
Framework why did you help out the poor? not because the spirit of god filled you but because it made you feel good to help them.
I of all people am noone to start preaching, God knows i'm probably one of the worst sinners/lawbreakers to have ever walked the earth. However, i have asked for forgiveness and i believe i have recieved it.
____
Just to kinda add on to what allen posted in his first thread, i sure was calling out for a God to save me when i was drugged and suffering from a heartbeat going so fast it could make a wheel spin. I spent three weeks in the hospital recovering from an overdose, i think someone slipped me GHB or some sort of amphetamine, not completely sure since i was'nt admitted to a hospital for three days after the incident. I spent those first three days wondering around town punching road signs and chasing after things that did'nt even exist. I believe God saved my life, and it's a miracle that i still have my mental faculties after the whole ordeal was finished.
Oh brother, well I dunno about you guys but I'm tired of debating my religious ideals and values. It now seems like we're all in this to defend what we think is right when we're really just trying to share our thoughts in the first place. Granted the fact that this is a security site and all, and even though I realize this is cosmos, all this is doing is dividing people over a religious issue...
-- Hi, my handles THE RADICAL and I believe in god.
-- Hi, THE RADICAL, my handle is 'blahblah', and I'm an athiest.
-- Interesting, what paths have you taken down in your life that have lead you to believe so?
** That's the kind of conversation I'm talking about **
Yes, I'll be the first to admit I'm just as guilty as the next guy, but come on this ridiculous, argueing over who's philosophy is the best? Do you really think that one sides going to come out over the other?
Quick tip: There won't.
So lets restructure this thread before it goes sour with all this 'proof' and 'beliefs' that are just making us divided. You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, and I'll respect your decision either way because I know there's more than just a person behind that keyboard.
Well, I'm out, hope I worded that well...
--PEACE :cool:
A few retourts to your points. The erisans where around long before illuminatius came out (princaplaya discordia predated it by a number of years). Illuminatius trilogy (and a later fallow up every thign is under control) are probably part of "operation ****up". As for the masons, which rite as there are a number. It seems from what I have read that the oriental rite belives the statement I made. Oh and the hassiassins where not just a gerilla force, as they had agents in most of the major eropean reulers courts of the day.
Quote:
Originally posted here by Zonewalker
bballad...
hope you meant that about arguing points :D
I would argue the inclusion of several of those groups in there....
the crux of gnostic philopsophy is as follows;
1. Self knowledge is knowledge of God, the self and the divine are indentical
2. Jesus came as a guide to open access to spiritual understanding rather than to save us from sin. When enlightenment is attained you become equal to Jesus in a spiritual sense
3. The physical world was created imperfect either by a moronic 'god' or evil 'god'. The true god is so outside of our comprehension that we will never know anything of him until we become enlightened. However this is not a gift, it is something we must work for.
In many respects Gnosticism is very similar to Buddhism and you can probably see why it was described as heresy by what we know as the Church. There are of course different interpretations of some of the gnostic texts much as there are differences of opinion concerning the New and Old testament
The crux of Masonic philosophy is that all men are brothers under God and that we should all look after each other. Essentially it's the biggest 'Frat' house on the face of the planet.... apologies to any Masons for being so flippant... :)
The crux of Illuminiati philosophy is very much unknown... the Bavarian order of the Illuminati is not widely documented - despite the book by Robert Wilson (which I should point out is a work of fiction... a good book, but still fiction)
Erisian philosophy.... well I hate to even put the two words together... the modern Erisian 'cult' stems from the Illuminatus book by Robert Wilson mentioned above - it's called Discordianism in there... Discordia being the latin form of Eris - the genealogy of Eris is confused but one variant indicates she is the daughter of Nyx (primal Goddess of the Night) and Erebus (primal God of Darkness) both of whom are offspring of Chaos. Discordianism is very much formed by the Illuminatus trilogy and whilst it might be interesting from a psychological point of view is inherently vapid. To quote from the Eris Discordia web site "Discordianism is either a religion disguised as a joke or a joke disguised as a religion". The original cult of Eris... is well... it's unsure if there even was one. The Greeks viewed Gods like Eris or Erebus very much as natural forces to be respected rather than as beings to be worshipped.
As for Hassassin philosophy (I am assuming you mean the forerunners of assassins!)... given that the 'Old Man of the Mountain' drugged followers to the eyeballs with hash and opium and then ordered the followers to kill people (usually Christian crusaders) I doubt their philosphy was anywhere near similar to your 'secret'. I'm probably going to regret saying this but the sect was an offshoot branch of Shia Islam i.e. they were muslims, it is more likely that they were fighting a guerilla war against the incursions of the Christian crusaders into their homelands at the time.
Probably the only thing you were right on in your post is that Satanists believe that
Although I daresay some of the Satanists round here may argue that one with me :)
Anyway..... sorry for the length of the post but I had to put in my 2penneth worth
Z
Ps can't comment on KoC... don't know anything about them.... are you refering to the Keepers of Chaos???
I would just like to say that I am a Catholic and believe that God does not look at what religion you follow but what life you follow. If you lead your life in a good way, tell me how God can punish you. As long as you respect religion(that does NOT mean worship) and lead a good life, God will love you all the same, regardless of your religion. Jesus said, "I have not come for the righteous but for the sinners."
KoC = kinghts of Columbas a catholic society set up in protest of masions, take much of their docterun from the hopitilars, much like the masions take most of theirs from the templars. interestingly both seem to have been influenced by the hassisians (not the forrunners to the assassins, assassin is a word derived from hassisian.)Quote:
Originally posted here by Zonewalker
Ps can't comment on KoC... don't know anything about them.... are you refering to the Keepers of Chaos???
bballad.. heh just caught up with this... I have to say that you are totally wrong about Erisians,the Principia Discordia and the Illumati...assuming you meant the original Bavarian order of the Illuminati which were founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776. For your interest the following is a brief synopsis (can find a lot more if you like)
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch...s/illumin.html
Now about 90% of modern 'Illuminati' cults take their belief structure from the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Wilson (almost as daft as the origins of Scientology) that I will accept and in that context yes ok I would accept that the Erisians and the Principia discordia predate them (for the time being anyway, there is something in my mind suggesting that the Principia and Illuminatus came out about the same time... unless you've got something you can point me to?). Which is exactly the reason why I said in my earlier post that I was referring to the Bavarian order of the Illuminati - the factual basis for the organisation depicted in the Illuminatus trilogy. So in this context the real Illuminati are older by about 200 years.
Unless of course you are referring to the original worshippers of Eris about 2500 years ago... in which case the situation is a little different...but by your mention of the Principia I assumed you aren't.
As for the Masons I was on about Masons in general... yes there are different rites but these do not generally relate to what the guiding principle of Masonry is. The different branches of Masons do differ on details but the guiding principle is that of fraternity etc . I'm a little confused by your reference to the oriental masons, for example... take a look at the Japanese Masonic Grand Lodge website (about as oriental as you can get)
http://www.japan-freemasons.org/
to quote them
Unless... you're referring to something like the OTO?? In which case - they aren't masonsQuote:
We are the Masons. We believe in helping others. We believe there is more to life than pleasure and money. We respect the opinions of others. And we all want to grow and develop as human beings. Masons are moral, honest men who work together to improve themselves and their communities. Our motto is "friendship, morality, and brotherly love."
Mmm still can't agree with you about the assassins... take a look at this and you'll understand why ;
http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/life_l...in_legends.htm
yes I know assassin is a word derived from hassassin thats why I said they were forerunners of assassins - read the above .
KoC interesting, never heard of them - have to look into them - got any links ??
Z
PS just to clarify for folks like Radical (if I understood your point correctly)... can I make it quite clear I am not saying any of the aforementioned beliefs are better than the other or that I necessarily even follow any of them myself. I'm also not trying to bring a divide between me and bballad but I find his views interesting and I'm trying to correct what I feel are mistaken facts on his part. I don't doubt that bballad feels some of my informaion is incorrect... but hopefully we can steer through the miasma :)
[EDIT] ahh ok stand corrected Principia discordia was published (1968) before the Illuminatus trilogy (1975)... didn't come out before the original order of Illuminati though :)
Just chek with your local catholics on the koc im sure they have a chapter. as for masons, grand lodge of the orient, egyption rite, the group the that OTO sprang from. On assasins we are both talking about the same group, their beleifes I beleive are as I stated.
correct on the origional illuminate of bevaria comeing before the prinicipalia, unless you count that group in berkly as the originals. The question I would ask is are we sure that the group in bevaria where the origionals? Its up in the air whos facts are right, all things considered. We are dealing with secrate societies and a lot of what is published on them is miss information, unfortuinatly every source I have found eather dosn't deal with them (regular history books), are erisian controlled (every thing is under control, other books that are part of operation **** up) or masonicly controlled (history of secratsocieties, verious books exposeing masonic secrates.). The truth is baried under many layers of crap.
What I think we do know. hassissan's or the Isma‘ilis sect of islam, (same thing) influanced the templares who then influenced OTO, Masions, Illumiaties. ECT.
I didn’t read all the posts because they were getting off track and redundant so I apologize if this line of thought has been covered, so back (belated) to focusing on the original question:
Facing a critical situation, such as a life threatening event; the mind will most likely grasp and seek all possibilities. If an atheist suddenly found himself falling to his death all those images of god that were wired into his brain from school and the media, would suddenly surface and make themselves known as a possible way out. Perhaps something like "Jesus God help me now!" would issue forth just before impact and eternal darkness (or a blazing accent into heaven). In fact I just yelled "Jesus Christ" because my firewall just went down, it's a reflex based on all the data accumulated over my time on earth. In fact if the atheist was thrown off the headquarters of some Taliban building he would probably yell "Allah save me and my children and destroy my enemies!" Most likely all of the other Taliban members would then proceed to praise Allah otherwise they would be persecuted for not having faith. For you see they have no separation of church and state and the atheist being thrown from the building might have been done so because he was guilty of not following the word of god.
The person could have been prepared for the fall. In that case he may go unwillingly in silence, but most if not all will cry out for help and hope. A primal need for survival will kick in and all possibilities will be explored while the brain and hormones kick into super drive.
Then you believe that all atheists are agnostic? By saying that you don't believe in someone that doesn't believe in something that you do believe in, means that they believe in the same things as you. Therefore, all your time spent in worship is for nothing because everyone believes the same thing. Also, does that mean that you don't believe in Jews, because they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? Do you not believe in Muslims because they don't worship Yahweh, they worship Allah?Quote:
.even though I truly do not believe in atheists,
That depends on the society. Some do believe in a higher power and some do not.Quote:
The reincarnation "theory" recognises a higher power.
But it is that exact same anger that causes all the wars. You just said that you get angry over peoples belief. And because you are angry, you wish their belief would change and would like to find a way to enforce that on people. Now maybe not you, but someone that was more aggressive would start a fight out of that anger, and it may end up as a war, which would end up being a religious war. Also, do you believe the war in Iraq was a war over territory or over a regime or over religion? The muslims feel it was about religion. How many other wars were started because of territory and then got blamed on religion later?Quote:
it makes me mad that people can be so stupid to support something that creates so much bloodshed
Thats when you know that you have found a good debate :D One that can go on forever and never have a true winner :) And as long as no one gets to upset or angry, then the debate should continue.Quote:
Yes, I'll be the first to admit I'm just as guilty as the next guy, but come on this ridiculous, argueing over who's philosophy is the best? Do you really think that one sides going to come out over the other?
Quick tip: There won't.
I love seeing things like this, because it really makes me wonder about all the rumors going around about society like the masons and things like that. I am a member of KofC, along with a couple other people on this forum. The organization was formed to help families in a time of need. It had nothing to do with the masons.Quote:
KoC = kinghts of Columbas a catholic society set up in protest of masions, take much of their docterun from the hopitilars, much like the masions take most of theirs from the templars. interestingly both seem to have been influenced by the hassisians (not the forrunners to the assassins, assassin is a word derived from hassisian.)
Which brings me to another point. The masons (or Free Masons as the were originally called) have been around many many many years longer then the templars. The original Free Masons were a jewish organization of.. you guessed it.. Masons. They were Free because they had the ability to move between areas without problem because the skills of the mason were highly valuable. The templars got involved with the masons (and later the Illuminati did also) because of the freedom of movement that the masons had.
zonewalker> http://www.kofc.org/index_eng.cfm They are primarily in the USA (hence the name Columbus)
Now for those of you that are asking for proof of god, what kind of proof are you looking for? And if you say scientific proof, search the internet for the latest findings on the "big bang theory." First note it says "theory." Second you will see that they are beginning to see that it may have been wrong. Also, If you read Genesis closely (the first book) you will see the story of Cain and Able. You will also see that after Cain kills able, he runs off and goes to.... A CITY!!!!! Now how could there be a city? The story of creation in the bible is NOT the story of how man and woman first came to life. It is a story of how the people of God first came into life. As for the "7 days" to create the world..well, consider it this way. If there is no sun or moon, then how long is a day? It never says exactly HOW God created the sun. Could it be possible that God forced massive amounts of matter into a ball and started explosions which created the sun? If the big bang theory were completely true, why would the matter have grouped like that? Before I change my beliefs, I would like to see scientific evidence that proves that God does not exist.
WOW soule ma, seriously mis informed on the masions. Nowing a few rather well I can tell you that they hapily trace themselfs back to the templars. As for the KOC, IF it is not an anti mason organization, it is a rather interesting cunicidence that the pope at the time of their founding in the US (or renameing as they where the Red Knights first, useing the symbols of the knights of malta who where the hospitilars) released a document declareing masons satinists and any catholic who joind the masons excomunicated from the church.
So in the US you have a new faternal order with the same public goals as the masons sprining up at the same time the masons are denounced as the worlds gratest evil by the head of the church, Wow that fits together nicely, but the KoC isn't an antimason group.
Oh and soul they are still called freem masons, mason is jsut a nice shortining of the name, they do not date back to the jewish masons (neat fairy tale), and if you look at a lot of their modern righting they where a very antismetic group (cleand up in the last 50 years or so.)
As for proof on god, the burden of proof falls on you, you must prove a positive not a negitive.
Proving that god does not exist is impossible. I don't see how your can prove an intangible concept doesn't exist. I can say "Jesus came in spirit and spoke to me last night in my dream"
Proving that the Holy Spirit didn't come is quite difficult. Possibly more difficult to prove than proving he did come. Because chances are while the lord was here, he gave me some snippit of information.
Of course I could say: in a thousand million years, if the apocolypse doesn't come that maybe god was a sham, but then again there is no indication of when and if it will ever come and if it does, will it be bearing god's wrath and fury or just be an unfortunate accident. Like a rogue comet obliterating all life and any concept of human beings and their many gods. Of which only one is the true lord. Unfortunately every flavor of religion has their own. So even if someone does believe in the lord all mighty, bearer of eventual death and destruction. Which one is it? And why do some humans as children (images of the one true god) choose to worship many (false idols of the one true god) different deities?
How do you prove the Hindu god that watches over children doesn't exist? Possibly through terror and persecution? But then that is not proving anything, just modifying behavior and consuming or eliminating another train of thought into the community of the persecutors.
http://www.gl-mi.org/Interesting-Fac...reemasonry.pdf hummm, nothing about the templars.
http://www.grandlodgemi.org/question...20TO%20HISTORY
Still nothing about templars....Quote:
Who discovered, designed or invented Masonry?
No one man, any more than any one man discovered, designed or invented democracy, or philosophy, or science, or any one government. Freemasonry is the result of growth. Many Masons had a part in it; it has taken to itself teachings from many religions, philosophies, systems of knowledge, symbols.
The most generally accepted orthodox belief as to those who "began" Freemasonry is that the Craft is a descendant of Operative Masons. These Operatives inherited from unknown beginnings, of which there may have been several and were probably many, practices and some form of ritual. Speculative Masonry, reaching back through Operative Masonry, touches hands with those who followed unknown religions in which, however, many of the Speculative principles must have been taught by the use of symbols as old as mankind and therefore universal, and not the product of any one people or time.
As a matter of fact, the templars were from the 1100's to 1300's... yet. http://www.thelodgeroom.com/york.html
Although he does say that the first document came out in 1390. The Knights Templar degrees are only if you follow the York rites. If you look at... http://www.thelodgeroom.com/ktemplar.htmlQuote:
Here it is believed by some that Freemasonry truly began with King Athelstane (925 - 940 AD) who took the
Or what about this page that quotes from "TheEncyclopedia of Freemasonry" http://www.co-masonry.org/language/e...ry/default.aspQuote:
While many authors have tried to paint a connection between the demise of the Templars and the birth of Freemasonry, Masonic Templarism makes no such claim of continuation. It does however pay homage to the knightly and Christian virtues possessed by the original to which we imitate.
My point talking about the Jewish Free Masons is complete fact. That is not the same as the secret society that we have now, but that is what the original masons were. Then, durring the Roman Empire, masons were allowed to move freely. I am not saying that they practiced the saem beliefs/rituals/etc that the current Free Masons practice. I am saying that it is from that time and freedom of movement that Free Masons took their name.Quote:
origin and source whence first sprang the institution of Freemasonry, such as we now have it
I don't know about the validity of this site because I have no idea who the author is but....http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Hummm so that would mean that they didn't start till 400 years after the Templars??? As I said, just because the oldest known writing was right after the templars, that doesn't mean that the organization wasn't from before that time, or way after that time.Quote:
Many legendary theories exist concerning the origin of freemasonry, but it is generally believed that it evolved from the medieval guilds of the stonemasons. Its present organizational form began on June 24, 1717, when a grand lodge was formed in London.
I don't remember any of the links that I have which show that the majority of the symbols in masonry are also in kabbalah, or the masons that claimed that it was a jewish organization.
My point about proof is that you wish me to prove that there is a God to make you believe. I want you to prove that there is not a God to make me disbelieve.
Is it a coincidence that Hindu has a three part god (can't be arsed to look up the names right now)? So does Christianity. So do a few other religions.Quote:
How do you prove the Hindu god that watches over children doesn't exist?
Sorry I've been away from this for a while - personal events in real life to try and sort out amongst the usual dross of living
just to answer a few folks in chronological post order...
Bballad - wouldn't personally count the group in Berkley as the founding group of the Illuminati, it's fairly well accepted that Weishaupt founded the Illuminati.... however I would accept that the Berkley order were one of the first 'daughter' groups with authority direct from Weishaupt.
Having said that I'd agree the truth is buried under many layers of crap - so who knows
Souleman... I agree that some 'reincarnation' cultures recognise a higher power whilst some do not. Cheers for the link, I'll look into the KofC, the fact they are mainly US based explains why I've not heard of them but it is good to expand ones frame of reference.
Soule and bballad... ok, the masons...according to Mackey, Albert G., M.D. and Charles T. McClenachen. 1894. An Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry. Philadelphia: L. H. Everts and Co
There is some evidence in Freemason legend to suggest that the organisation goes back to the time of King Solomans temple (in the Bible) but as far as I know there is no 'hard' archaelogical evidence or literature from primary sources to support this.Quote:
There is written evidence of the Masons dating back to the fourteenth century. In the Middle Ages stonemasons and architects were an elite class who could travel between countries, unlike serfs who had restrictions on their travel. They called themselves "free" because of this. The Masons were responsible for building beautiful structures across Europe, especially the cathedrals. Until the sixteenth century, Masons were simply craftsmen learning the operative art of masonry in guilds and unions
The first Grand Lodge in the UK was founded in 1717, and it is here that most Freemasons take the founding of modern Freemasonry from. The reason I know this is because I know a couple of masons and whilst they are not exactly open about a lot of things they are reasonably willing to discuss bits of their history and foundation. They backed up most of the above - but you'll just have to take my word for that - or not as the case may be :)
The Templar link is better documented but the exact details are a little shrouded in mystery because in 1307 King Philippe IV of France ordered their arrest and raid of Templar assets. Much confusion arose, accusations of heresy abounded until the Templars were eventually ordered to disband by a Papal Apostolic Decree on 22 March, 1312. Many knights were hunted down, tortured and killed and many of their possessions and records were either confiscated or similarly destroyed. The past is a many splintered thing.
Anyway this is getting off the point a little... sorry
As for proving if God exists or not.... as RoadClosed says, proving an intangible concept or even an intangible reality is difficult (I wouldn't say impossible). For example I can no more prove or disprove the existence of God than I can prove or disprove the existence of superstrings or the other 22 dimensions that physicists say exist. I think someone said (either in this thread or the 'do you beleiev in god' thread) ultimately it comes down to faith. Whether you choose to have faith or not is entirely a personal decision - and the decision you make may not be the right one, it's just something you have to live with.
Z
PS... this is going to be flippant and may offend some but I couldn't help but roll on the floor killing myself laughing at the statement by RoadClosed
ahh god I think I'm gonna burn in hell :DQuote:
Proving that the Holy Spirit didn't come is quite difficult
[edit]
Soule
never a truer word spoken :thumbsup:Quote:
Thats when you know that you have found a good debate One that can go on forever and never have a true winner And as long as no one gets to upset or angry, then the debate should continue.
Soule we must have crossed posts... the 'link' with Templars - I should have mentioned it being in connection with the York rite and that is my only understanding of a link with the Templars, so I would entirely agree with your sumation of the Templar 'link'
the issue does get muddied because of the unofficial continuation of the Templars as an order after the dissolution. It's too long for me to go into right now but I think that this is the origin of any links with the Masons - suspect that the unofficial Templar order took shelter with Masons and the York rite developed.
Clear as mud?? you bet
Z