In God We Trust...

In light of the recent developments relating to the Ten Commandments situation, i decided to look into the history of the phrase "In God We Trust", and how it got to be on our currency. was the person who headed the 'IGWT' campaign referring to any specific deity? read on...

The year was 1861. This preacher dude named Rev. M. R. Watkinson of Ridleyville, Pennsylvania sent a letter to Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase stating the following(excerpt):

"One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.

You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW."

this letter was written by a Christian minister, and it seems as if the deity being referred to is none other than the God of the Christian faith.

so what happens next you say? well, the secratary of the treasury was so moved by the letter that he himself wrote a letter 7 days later to a guy by the name of James Pollock, who ran the show over at the Philedelphia Mint. the letter read like this:

"Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins. You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition."

well, 2 years later, the dude who ran the mint designed the coins and came up with two choices for a motto:
1. "OUR COUNTRY; OUR GOD"
2. "GOD, OUR TRUST"

The secratary of the treasury emailed (o wait, 1863, nm) the MintMaster back and said the following:
"I approve your mottoes, only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST. "

now, you may say, hold the friggen phone birdman! you mean 3 guys got together, came up with the idea, and started pumping out coins!?!?

nah, its doesnt fly like that; the group still needed federal legislation to start pressing the new coinage. well, on April 22, 1964, they got the go-ahead for the motto on the one and two cent coins. a year later, March 3, 1865, another act of congress put the motto on all coins.

and the rest is history!

You missed one point, that secratary of the tresury was from a political party whose stated goal was to abolish the constitution and replace it with a thocracy. Humm I guess we wheren't a christian nation after all.

Lol, looks like some leftist feathers have been ruffled here huh?

Although I do find devilmech's historical findings pretty interesting, if he can back it up with a source.

Just as well, it is obvious that when our government was founded there were people involved that applied biblical principals to it, but hey? that's another thread :D .

By the way, that...

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preacher dude

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you were talking about is more commonly known as a priest.

Just a little r-e-s-p-e-c-t, tell me what it means to me cha! We'll get along fine that way.

-- So excited, finally got my car all set today, ready to take her out on the road!

--Peace :cool:

One piece of advice radical.

Cars do not mix with a a ditch and a bunch of trees.

Trust me :D

Now to this post at hand.

I think that we should keep the ten commandmets, and that we should keep "In God we Trust" on our money. After all if you read you history books, America was founded on christian beliefs.

Umm lets see proff of that founding on chirstian belifes. oh an radical unless hes catholic hes not a preist, as this guy was protistant I think preacher dude is just as fitting as anything.

Myself, I don't believe anything belongs on our money besides the value of it, and something to authenticate that it came from the us mint. You can put a pretty picture of some historical building if you want, but putting crap like "In god we trust" on our money is going to make a lot of people bitch, much like they are doing now.


Myself, it's friggin money. It spends the same, no matter if they put "You are stupid" on it.

Besides, the way I look at it, the more of it I get rid of, the more trust in god I get rid of... in a rather literal sense anyway

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Myself, it's friggin money. It spends the same, no matter if they put "You are stupid" on it.

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Then what are you so worried about?

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Originally posted here by FrameWork


Then what are you so worried about?

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Who said I was worried about anything?

Your post's imply you are. ;)

Hey people why is The Radical getting negged???

This is the cosmos forum in case you have forgotten. You are suppose to leave your AP's outside. People in here are purely stating there opinion which should not be judged.

Go read the sticky at the top of this forum. It clearly says no negging in here.

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Originally posted here by FrameWork
Your post's imply you are. ;)

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nope... was just givin people a history lesson. Figured it would be of interest to a lot of people.

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Hey people why is The Radical getting negged???

This is the cosmos forum in case you have forgotten. You are suppose to leave your AP's outside. People in here are purely stating there opinion which should not be judged.

Go read the sticky at the top of this forum. It clearly says no negging in here.

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Wasn't me. I read said sticky :)

well I know it wasn't you because whoever it was, was able to knock his post assigned meter down a little ways. So whoever it was had some AP's.

HMMMMMMMMMMM............Something tells me that the liberals of america are still up and arms about the hanging chads and how republicans own the white house now wich leads me to the conclusion that most liberals are pour sportsmen and cant admit when there wrong so as they say........

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Deal with it !!!!

CHAPTER II

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oh an radical unless hes catholic hes not a preist, as this guy was protistant I think preacher dude is just as fitting as anything.

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Well if you really THINK that he was a Protestant preacher why don't you just call him by the name that he was ment to be called.

Somehow, 'preacher dude' just didn't fit the mold for me in terms of appropriateness and respectfulness, but hey!? That's just me right :D ?

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Hey people why is The Radical getting negged???

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Lol, I should have seen something like this coming. I knew that SOMEONE here was going to crack and just wouldn't be able to resist that little link.

But I hate bitching about AP's so I'll just leave it where it lies.

Thanks for creating the awareness tho man. I guess they just don't like my r-e-s-p-e-c-t song, go figure ;).

ok rad I am thinking you need to PM some of us with the name of whoever neged you. It might get heated in here but this si a neg free zone, I say a littel vigilantism is in order :).

I figure any one who wants t oabolish the constatution and govern the country with a totalitarian theocracy is not worthy of any respect.

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Originally posted here by THE RADICAL


Well if you really THINK that he was a Protestant preacher why don't you just call him by the name that he was ment to be called.

Somehow, 'preacher dude' just didn't fit the mold for me in terms of appropriateness and respectfulness, but hey!? That's just me right :D ?

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My dad's a preacher. I was going to college to be one myself. Try seeing how they are outside of the shining ring of light you see them in on Sundays and you won't be worrying about appropriateness and respect


EDIT: I have no clue if my dad's still a preacher. I haven't talked to him in 5 years

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Okay so the first 4 are pretty "religious" but the next 6 are good simple rules for living. You know my problem w/ the 10 commandments though? Where is the "no sex before marriage" part? And the "alcohol is bad" part? and the "smoking will send you to hell" part? Not to mention the 9 million other "rules" that the Jews had to live by at the time, what they could eat, where they could work, who they could talk to....God is apparently like my 8 year old son, and makes the rules up as he goes along. Not to mention the part where Jesus all of a sudden comes along and says that before all these, love you neighbor as yourself. Seems like if there was going to be a bunch of rules, he could have at least taken them time to make sure they were all there.

I guess taht bit is left out by the fundies, read your bibles guys, jesus basicly abolished the ten comanments and replaced them with one.

For those out there claiming the ten commandments are just good rules to fallow and not overly judao/christian/muslim look at the first few, thats the problem with them in a secular setting.

One other question for the ten commanments group, whos copy do we use. The Catholic, the protistant, eastern orthidiox, one of the many jewish? There are many difrent versions of them.

Yes, but it goes back to my original point...if Jesus "abolished" the 10 commandments, and replaced them with one....the one he replaced it with was above all else, love you neighbor as yourself. So where do all the other rules come from? How can you make ONE rule for people to live by, and then go along and make others up as you go along? For someone all knowing, it seems like he could have just said "okay, this is the list, follow it, accept me as your saviour, and you'll go to heaven"...but that's not what happened.

Umm otehr way around deb, the list came first, then later this preacher (profit if you listen to the muslims, saviour if you listen t o the christians.) came a long and said "See these rules, well they are basicly crap, I will tell you the only rule you need t0 fallow".

time for anotehr deep dark secrate
"love you neighbor as yourself" ~= "Do what thou will as long as you harm no other"

so to state things mathamaticaly
(the BIG rule of christianity ~= the Big rule of Crowley style satinism ~= the BIG rule of (modern) Wicca ~= the BIG rule of most eastern religions.) != the beliefs of (modern)fundimentalists in any (includeing christian) faith.

No, not backwards at all.

God = 10 commandments and about 900 other rules for Jews to follow

Jesus = Love your neighbor as yourself

Paul and the 12 (well, 11 after the crucifixion) = a whole bunch of other rules "given" to them by God and the Holy Spirit. Read the later books of the New Testament, particularly the ones written by Paul. It is page after page of new rules and condemnations of the fledgling churches for not following his rules.

I don't personally trust the words of any of the Epistles, or basically anything but the gospels. Assuming that jesus existed, he left one and only one commandment, and that was to love your neighbor. He never spread a message of hate, and yet later on Paul, a man who never even met jesus would go on to spread hate in the church with his letters.

oooh - look guys I REALLY am sorry about this, but I can't let bballads comments go - 'scuse us :D

bballad... it seems we have these little disagreements a lot lately... nothing personal! :D

Crowleys 'rule' as you put it is actually

'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will'

it says nothing about not harming others - Crowley recognised that sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and sometimes this does involve hurting people. Wanna chat over PM??

Z

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And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

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http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/k...1&byte=4380943

One bad mofo, that Jesus. Not exactly the nice fuzzy dude you were told about
in sunday school.
:cool:

As for Crowley...

http://www.lsi.usp.br/usp/rod/magick...r_crowley.html
:cool:

I think that Jesus had to be firm in some of his teachings becasue he knew just like everybody else did that some people were not going to accept a message filled with hope and all the good mushy things that come with it. Plus this is a faith we're talking about here, in a faith one must be firm with the teachings that come with it.

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God is apparently like my 8 year old son, and makes the rules up as he goes along.

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I think that all rules are open to interpretation by the masses. If you think 'Tho Shalt not Kill' is straight forward then why have we had so many religious wars that have ended in bloodshed? I don't believe it is because these people abandonded these laws, but they chose to interpret them differently so they could justify killing the enemy. Which brings me to my point. The more rules you have reguarding an issue the less open to interpretation it becomes. Jesus' golden rule may not have stopped the countless deaths that have resulted from religious wars. But he gave us something very important to think about when it came to dealing with someone you weren't exactly on par with.

Bballad, I have a great equation that's right on the mark...

God + Me = Peace of Mind & Solidarity

Your equation may work just fine for you, but like most equations it has a variable...the variable being "me" in this one, and like most equations, when you put that variable in, it comes up with a different answer every time ;)

rcgreen... I've got a confession to make... I've got the CD thats shown in that link :D

but you're right Jesus wasn't the nice fuzzy dude many people think he is....

Z

PS Radical 'Thou shalt not kill' can (and is argued by some, should) be translated from the original hebrew as 'Thou shalt not do murder' thought it might interest you

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Originally posted here by Zonewalker
oooh - look guys I REALLY am sorry about this, but I can't let bballads comments go - 'scuse us :D

bballad... it seems we have these little disagreements a lot lately... nothing personal! :D

Crowleys 'rule' as you put it is actually

'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will'

it says nothing about not harming others - Crowley recognised that sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and sometimes this does involve hurting people. Wanna chat over PM??

Z

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Humm it sems you are correct on this one...coudn't rememeber the excat pharse so I asked a local wicca...stupid wicca miss quoteing. still the point holds basicly the sames as the christian big rule.

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Originally posted here by Zonewalker
rcgreen... I've got a confession to make... I've got the CD thats shown in that link :D

but you're right Jesus wasn't the nice fuzzy dude many people think he is....

Z

PS Radical 'Thou shalt not kill' can (and is argued by some, should) be translated from the original hebrew as 'Thou shalt not do murder' thought it might interest you

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Now g olook up the achiant hebrew definition of murder. basicly the commandment boiled down to, don't kell another jew every one else is fair game.