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Many people seem to believe that:
- being anti-Zionist,
- believing Israel is an illegitimate state,
- disagreeing with the way Israel treats its neighbours and
- disagreeing with the strange, seemingly unshakeable US-Israeli alliance
are forms of anti-Semitism.
I am looking for people's opinions on why the mentioned examples are forms of anti-Semitism.
cos i sayed so...
HI YA BRISSY DOOD
Nightfalls_Girl
If I said that the French or German or Italian states were illegitemate,
You could understand why the members of those nationalities might fail to distinguish
between the concept of being against their states and being against their
people
Israel has been on the map for 55 years. How long does it take to get recognition
from their critics? In the end, it isn't your enemies who decide whether your state
is entitled to exist.
http://www.bartleby.com/66/30/7330.htmlQuote:
The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood.
ATTRIBUTION: Otto Von Bismarck (1815–1898), Prussian statesman. speech, Sept. 30, 1862. Bismarck: Life and Works, vol. 4 (1878).
What else can they do but fight for their survival?, just as the rest of us would
do when our back is to the wall.
:cool:
had a little too much to drink eh?Quote:
HI YA BRISSY DOOD
:cool:
not enuf accuilly...
Brissy is a shourter way of saying brisbane... DARRR
Nightfalls_Girl
Personaly I am sick of Israil hiding behind the antisemite defense. look I have nothing agenst the jewish faith, or people, but I find the israle govement and the "setelers" who streal land at gunpoint dispicable. This dose not make me an antisemite any more then my dislike for bush makes me antiamerican.
Actually I agree with bballad and powertoad (nice to see you again - haven't seen you lately - or have I just been blind??). There was actually a thread started by AFQ yesterday on much the same lines as this i.e. anti Zionist - though one of us felt he was anti semitic (shan't say who).
The creation of Israel was handled particularly badly IMHO, but then I guess with the benenfit of hindsight we can all say that about something. I think the point bballad is making is particularly apt, there are times when folks use the 'you're anti semitic' or 'you're a nazi' defense a little too often. I can't argue this too well at the moment cos I'm at work (supposedly working :) )
rcgreen... yeah Bismarck made that statement - but you'd be suprised at some of the statements Perez or Sharon have been attributed with - I'll see if I can find them later - but they're just as bloody
like everyone else I'd like to say I am also not anti Jewish - in fact technically I am jewish. My great grandmother on my mothers side was jewish and in case you don't know the inheritance runs down the female line. I don't count myself as being jewish because its so far removed from me.
The racist argument is used far too often as a defence - yes sometimes its use is legitimate, however frequently it is not.
Z
It was me, you're not gonna hurt my feelings bro. :)Quote:
though one of us felt he was anti semitic (shan't say who).
glad to hear it bro - never like pointing to someone and saying 'twas them, oh blimey 'twas them..... IMHO I think you were a bit premature in judging AFQ but well I can understand why since his presentation wasn't the best so I ain't holding anything against ya :)Quote:
It was me, you're not gonna hurt my feelings bro. :)
anyway... it's time for me to leave work and go home to the g/f... probably be back later (but since I've had a shitty day I could well be drunk)
Z
Perhaps you're right, I may have jumped the gun a bit.
Discaimer.... sarcasm at work....
Parsonally, I am still pissed that the Norse came down a thousand years ago and took over my blood country (roots) and sacked our villages and raped our woman. The Scandanavians must pay!!!! Jihad!Quote:
"setelers" who streal land at gunpoint dispicable.
The way I heard it, the charming and handsome Vikings came to pay a friendlyQuote:
sacked our villages and raped our woman. The Scandanavians must pay
visit, and the ladies were impressed by the fact that the Scandinavian guys
were in the habit of taking baths...
:cool:
It's obvious where your opinion lies. :) But you have yet to outline why you feel that way, or what makes you believe in this connection between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.Quote:
hiya brissy girl (although you never know on the internet :p)Quote:
HI YA BRISSY DOOD
no im not a brissy gal, im about 2 hrs away from there tho :(
I WANNA LIVE IN A BIG CITY...
tho last time i went to brissy i got lost.. HMMMM
Nightfalls_Girl
I think the most descriptive point made regarding the cause of ongoing
disputes and termoil in this region.
Quote:
Personaly I am sick of Israil hiding behind the antisemite defense
Dateline reporter Mark DavisQuote:
For Israel to even contemplate bombing another state, they must have concluded there wouldn't be any effective response, either militarily or otherwise. It would seem they were right, there hasn't been much of a response, has there?
Yahya Mahmassini Arab League's Ambassador to the UNRules for some and rules for others to break it seems. The sooner the US asserts some sortQuote:
Well, let's first start by saying that the Syrian Government has reacted wisely and prudently. Don't forget Syria is a member of the Security Council and if there is any dispute, it should be resolved through the Security Council in accordance with the charter, of course. But what Israel-the act of Israel by itself is an act of agression in violation of the charter of the United Nations, of international law and of it's obligation in the United Nations. What happened here is that the Israeli action should be condemned and strongly sanctioned by the Security Council of the UN because Israel is acting outside the law of the international community.
of pressure on Israel to refrain from doing as it wants, the sooner the threat of terrorism will
be reduced in America. To not publicly condone this action is publicly supporting it, as would
be seen by the people of the region on the receiving end of Israel's "Munich" list tactics.
For the full interveiw go to dateline
lol, ok I forgive them. They taught my ancestors how to "warsh thee bottom" and build cool ships.Quote:
Scandinavian guys
were in the habit of taking baths...
Not to mention they brought Nokia's with them!
I don't see how the items you mentioned are anti semitic. Being able to divide the state's actions from its people is the key here. Israel, like any state, is not a law unto itself and must behave accordingly. Where there is a disconnect is in the actions of the state. It would therefore stand to reason that if one disagreed with its actions that would be a mark against the state of Israel and not against the poeple residing there.
My opinion.
I agree with you entirely. The point of the thread was to get those people who think otherwise to present their arguments to the contrary. As you can see, none have been presented thus far, leading me to believe that those who cannot separate these two concepts are being influenced by other factors (e.g. religion).Quote:
Originally posted here by gold eagle
I don't see how the items you mentioned are anti semitic. Being able to divide the state's actions from its people is the key here. Israel, like any state, is not a law unto itself and must behave accordingly. Where there is a disconnect is in the actions of the state. It would therefore stand to reason that if one disagreed with its actions that would be a mark against the state of Israel and not against the poeple residing there.
My opinion.
OK, There is a world of difference between criticizing the actions of a stateQuote:
The point of the thread was to get those people who think otherwise to present their arguments to the contrary.
and saying that it is illegitimate, and has no right to exist.
I am a fierce critic of my own gov't and take no offense if foreigners
express their honest disagreements with my gov't.
But the minute you say that my nation-state has no right to exist,
you have attacked me, and my safety and security. What other agency is
charged with the grave responsibility of protecting the people
from invasion, bombing, rape and destruction, if not the nation-state.
Criticize the present administration all you want, but I have no choice
but to consider an attack on my nation's right to exist as an attack
on me. I am sure you would probably feel the same in my shoes.
Nations that allow themselves to be dismantled by their enemies leave their
populations open to every concievable danger.
http://www.geocities.com/iturks/html/documents_1.html
:cool:
agreed. rcgreen you have put a good point out here. Criticize actions, not the right to exist.
I know this will seem very technical, using the definition of "semite" which refers to Arabs, Jews, Phoenicians and a whole bunch of other people. How can anyone who lives in that area be an anti-semite?
I guess we need to rewrite Webster's.