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rant
Disclaimer
I have nothing against the people who post replies such as "use google". (I have even done it before. Usually I will post something like check google, then later I will come back to my post and edit it with the answer I found at google.) This is simply asking you to have a more open mind toward answering peoples questions here.
Why are we so quick to tell someone to search the forums or to search google when they have a problem. I know that I as well as other people have nothing better to do than answer peoples questions(if you're offended by this and it doesn't apply to you just ignore it). A lot of people may look to AO as their own personal google. They post a thread with a question which represents the search terms. Then everyone here at AO gives them an answer which represents the search results. It is like google only a hell of a lot better because you usually get the exact answer, not all that non-related crap from google. No wonder everyone comes here for their answers. I for one usually don't search google or the forums before I post a question. Maybe people just think that this is a better source than google. I just don't get it. This forum is to answer people's security questions. Yet when someone asks one they are told to go to google. Why do we even have the forum if people are told to go to google instead. I guess I have been lucky so far because no one has said anything to me about going to google or searching the forums. I think that the most I have gotten was "I think this has already been asked here", but no reference to a thread. Now I know some of you will go and look at every one of my posts looking for one in which someone pointed out a thread which answered my question. That just illustrates my point that you have nothing better to do than to search for the answers for other people. Plus I don't like the search feature of this forum. It never gives me what I'm looking for. Maybe someone can write a tutorial about using this forums search feature. Someone should also write a tutorial on using google. I'm sure that has been done though because everyone is always telling people to go to google. I know what everyone is thinking, when you answer the persons question you usually find the answer in google or within another thread in the forum. So you do the work for this person, that's no big deal because that is what drives a lot of people here at AO, the satisfaction of answering someone's question. So the next post you see that you think the answer is in google, just step back, take a deep breath, and do that person a favor and just answer their question. Heck, you never know, you might even get some + AP's for it.
I think that everyone here will agree with at least some of my points and disagree with probably a lot more, but I am entitled to my opinion. If you disagree with me feel free to enlighten everyone on your views. This thread is open for discussion.
p.s. I made sure to post this in GCC due to recent events at AO.
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You do have some good points. I'm sure I helped trigger this rant with my previous two posts. I didn't think of that, it was selfish of me and I admit. I guess its a little late at night for me and my common sense side ain't workin to well. I will keep this in mind for future posting, and if I can figure out how, I will delete my previous two posts. :)
Dave
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Quote:
Originally posted here by dstevens1958
if I can figure out how, I will delete my previous two posts. :)
Dave
Just go to your post , edit, then delete
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Or, don't delete, just edit and take out the attitude parts. The links were useful.
:)
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You don't have to edit or delete your posts. It is ok to tell someone to go to google and be rude about it. You have your rights. I just think that this site is a better source than google and we should prove it in the way we answer questions. I know for a fact that most of the people here can answer a persons question at least twice as good as google. We have the best of the best and I am proud to be a part of this forum.
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Quote:
Originally posted here by rapier57
Or, don't delete, just edit and take out the attitude parts. The links were useful.
:)
I honestly don't think there was any "attitude parts" in his posts. I feel that dstevens1958 was merely trying to help someone help themself, and I agreed with him
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Well, it is nice to see some ppl stickin up for me! However, I still think I went for the throat a little too quickly. I used to do the same thing, lol. (Before I learned how to use google that is... ;)) But yeah, I already deleted the posts, lol. Maybe I did that a little to quickly too. <<sigh>> its been one of them days I guess, not much goin right. Oh well, I don't think AO has an 'undelete' thingy for ppl like me who delete posts with some useful links on 'em ey? lol. Oh well, whats done is done, not like any blood was shed in the process, so perhaps I will just take this to heart and put a little trigger-guard on my mouse button so I don't post too quickly. (or delete for that matter :P) lol, kinda makes me think though, I wonder how much business we give google from here with all the refers? ehehe, google should help sponsor AO don't u think? LOL, ok, maybe thats too much, its late remember? ;)
Peace,
Dave
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To me say "go check google" is like saying that you have no clue what the answer is so find it yourself. I know that if I know the answer to someone's question I don't hesitate to post it. I think a lot of people are the same way. They don't know the answer so they automatically say "check google". That is not a bad thing though. There should probably be at least one post to every question that says to check google, just as a temporary solution until the right person reads the question and provides the answer. I think that these check google posts are especially good when people ask about drivers. About a month ago someone posted about finding drivers for a modem or something. Then I posted with some links to the drivers and said that I found them with google. Then that person replied, that it was ok because he had already found the drivers. Those are the posts where it is good to point out google. Hope this clears some stuff up.
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I think there are two very good reasons for pointing people to google.
1. When the question requires very specific answers/downloads/whatever, that are available on the web. Things like drivers are probably a good example, because they are quite specific needs. It might be that guidance to help get the right hits is appropriate.
2. When someone wants homework/assignment help. In my previous forum, this was likely to get the word "cheat" in a reply very quickly, and usually very aggressively. We should not be expected to do people's marked work for them.
Apart from those types of cases, it is probably a cop out. I think posting a link to another thread is very helpful. The best, of course, is simply answering the question. Even if it is the tenth time you have done it. In the end, people with problems need answers. If we can help them move on in that direction, we will be serving a useful purpose.
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I think that this is an interesting thread :)
I must admit that I tell people to use "Google". I would like to hope that I do that for one or other of two reasons.........
1. Because it will produce several hundred hits, and only they can decide those which are relevant.
2. I cannot remember the precise link that I am trying to send them to. If they are REALLY interested, the onus is upon them?
I am aware that in less democratic parts of the world, Google is actually blocked by the State ISP...............so it is not always an option for us all, I think that we should bear that fact in mind?
I am also aware that a number of people come to the forum with very specific and immediate problems.........they are stressed at the time and will not analyse things with the cynicism of one who could put 30 computers online in the space of an hour...........they are in panic, and need help? isn't that what AO is about?
I believe that it is legitimate to refer persons to search engines, but I insist that you should at least give them the search parameters that you recommend? otherwise why bother to reply?
Just my £0.02
Cheers
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By your post nihil it seems that you at least somewhat agree with me. My method is that if I see a question that I don't know the answer to and I think google does, I will post for them to check google and I will be working on their problem. Then I go to google and try to find an answer. If I do I edit my previous post to incorporate the answer, if not, I just leave it be. I think that it is a pretty good method. It gives them pretty good odds of getting an answer whether it be by me or by themselves.
Just my £0.02
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I will usually check google, and then post the page that is closest to answering their question, telling them I found it on google. I aggree with nihil, that it is impossible to know exactly what link would best fix their particular problem. Most new people don't really have a clue as to what a resourse google can be, and usually set their search parameters too broad.
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Hi h3r3tic
I would go further and say that I substantially agree with your comments. I was just adding a little bit based on my way of doing things :)
I do tend to recommend software in quite a few of my posts, and cannot always remember the exact link, or find it easily (if it is on another box, for example). In those circumstances, I think it is legitimate to suggest a Google search for the precise Company/product, as I know that it will appear at the top of the first page of the search results. Another reason is that my link will tend to be to the site/mirror most appropriate to me over here in Europe, and that might not be best for people in other parts of the World. I have only recently got broadband so I can still remember 56.6 dial-up :eek:
When I come across a request for information regarding projects/papers/homework I will try to give some examples of the search parameters to try in a Google search. As Moxnix correctly states, newcomers to search engines usually set their parameters too broad and get swamped with the results.
My comment on geographical location is valid I think? I seem to recall someone from Saudi Arabia saying that their ISP blocked Google?
In a way it is a bit like your first systems/applications support role. You cannot "see" the problem and you do not know the extent of the User's knowledge. It takes you a while to get into the swing of things?
I am aware that we get some very frustrating requests which have totally inadequate initial details; but that takes me back to my comment that a lot of people who come to us with problems are stressed out, and are looking for a quick solution. I don't think that they have the time to explore the site and read all the tutorials etc.
Perhaps it would help if there were a few quick links or an "FAQ" on the front page, so they could get a checklist of required information before posting. I agree that the current search facilities are not the most user friendly :(
It is an interesting thread that you have raised.
Cheers
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I think I should expand my first criteria for sending people to google. I agree with nihil's responses, because I think that suggesting people look on google with certain criteria is a very different thing from simply saying "go look on google". That was sort of what I was intending.
I think I would tend to assume ( rightly or wrongly ) that someone has already checked out google ( or similar ) before they post here ( or any other forum ). If I am going to offer any assistance, I either need to point them towards the appropriate criteria, or provide something of an answer. Otherwise, as nihil said, why post? ( apart from to increase the post count :D
