It is, thogh many would disagree. For an explanation, talk to the republican, or pm me.
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It is, thogh many would disagree. For an explanation, talk to the republican, or pm me.
Unfortunately, the definition of the word "liberal" has been completely
reversed in the last 100 years, so that modern american
liberalism is a blend of socialist and fascist ideas, definitely authoritarian
or "majoritarian'.
http://jkalb.freeshell.org/texts/liberal-tyranny.htmlQuote:
Contemporary liberalism is not so limited a view. It is a comprehensive governing philosophy that determines the whole of public morality. While it sounds permissive, comprehensive solutions are usually intolerant in practice and liberalism is no exception. Contemporary liberalism sets forth categorical demands it calls "rights," and rejects balancing principles such as respect for natural tendencies and settled understandings. Without balancing principles abstract demands expand without limit. As a result, liberal standards have become all-embracing to the point of tyranny.
Contrast it with classical liberalism which was a philosophy of
individual liberty, anti-traditionalist, against inherited authority, and
against conservatism
:cool:
Without giving links to web pages, or quotes from others, what is your own definition of a "Liberal" and / or a "Communist", or as you have suggested in a previous thread, bballad was, a communist liberal.Quote:
Originally posted here by clintonsucks
It is, thogh many would disagree. For an explanation, talk to the republican, or pm me.
I am of course looking at this from an outsiders point of view, being in the UK, and the political system being somewhat different to that in the USA, but nevertheless would be interested in your opinions
It seems that his definition of communist liberal is any one who wants personal freedom, a smaller goverment, a goverment that stays out of your life, and a govement that dosn't propagate the private law of the wealthy....if thats the case then I a ma comunist.
I think where "Liberalism" is concerned and associated with communism and socialist ideals is the tendancy toward ensuring people citizens of the US become more and more dependent on government intervention to "help" them through their daily lives. I have a problem seeing how government dependance equates to freedom and democracy. That is where I can't agree.
I dont know if I would go that far. Whether or not you like liberals, I wouldn't say they are communist or anything like that.
Does somebody listen to Mike Savage???
There are liberal and conservative Republicans, there are liberal and conservative Democrats, and there are liberal and conservative Communists. Liberalism and conservatism are more points of view within a policital ideology than a policital ideology themselves.
clintonsucks, for example, may be categorized as a conservative Republican. Where Arnold might be categorized as a liberal Republican.
If we take clintonsucks' (and The Republican's) view, Arnold would be a Communist Republican.
Maybe we are all communists, and you should really be asking, "Are you a Republican Communist, a Democrat Communist, or a Libertarian Communist."
If you know your history, you also know that the Republican party (aka the Grand Old Party, GOP) was once the liberal point of view in America.
Mike savage was fired from his show on msnbc, but he still does a radio show doesn't he?
Savage still does his radio show. And he pisses a lot of people off in the process. I once heard him say not to take calls from anybody that lived in a rural location because they don't know **** and can't influence the real world. I guess he forgot that our vp is from Wyoming. Heh.
That's true but how does that relate to 2003? Currently the Republican Party takes a politically conservative viewpoint. So it boils down to ideals versus party affiliation. I like Zell Miller and he's a democrat with conservative ideals of which many align with me (not all mind you). I don't give a rat’s ass who you’re affiliated with if you support my ideas and the ideas I believe are a collective good for America.Quote:
If you know your history, you also know that the Republican party (aka the Grand Old Party, GOP) was once the liberal point of view in America.
Back to your quote of shifting "values" in a party concerning liberal republicans. In the democratic party of today, you can see shifts to the right. They are becoming more conservative using its historical definition. By that I mean, I see government leaders shifting to the right a little as time progresses.
For historical reference, the newly formed Republican Party was behind the Emancipation Proclamation. You could call that move “progressive” to use a liberal word of the day.
rapier57, I'd appreciate it if you didn't assume where I stand before I weigh in. My definition of communism is the idea that the government should ensure that all people in their nation are equal economically, which usually means that the government does not give a damn for individual rights and wants total control over it's citizens. Many Democrats believe in "social programs" such as income redistribution and the likes, which basically do the same thing. Liberalism was originally the idea that individual rights should be protected, but the Liberals in America seem to have lost that ideal. Their ideals can be described as socialism and facism. So, Liberalism is not communism, but many Liberals want it to be.Quote:
Originally posted here by rapier57
If we take clintonsucks' (and The Republican's) view, Arnold would be a Communist Republican.
Gosh, I'm gone for a few days, and people automatically start to put words in my mouth :D
Liberals want to kill babies and keep people from practicing their religion while conservatives want to know everything you do and push smaller nations around.
That’s the only choices? Satan or Big Brother?
Big brother then. To an extent of course.
Of course that is an over-simplification, but I understand that is how you meant it to come across.
Yeah, Big Brother.. Take what I can get I guess....
I'm sorry but I always find it surprising how deeply ingrained US propaganda is on its people, surely in a society which gives its people individual rights wouldnt be so quick to force such obviously biased views on people.Quote:
Originally posted here by TheRepublican
My definition of communism is the idea that the government should ensure that all people in their nation are equal economically, which usually means that the government does not give a damn for individual rights and wants total control over it's citizens.
I dont get involved in political discussions, but sometimes it surprises me how people take such a view so wholeheartedly.
Out of interest have you read any of the works of Karl Marx, Lenin, Trotsky. Even Derrida who succumbs to the view that capitalism has meant communism is unworkable but accepts that Marxism is neccessary is order to show the ills and there are so many ills of capitalist society.
I dont want to argue for communism here or anything to be honest just to question your understanding of what communism or even liberalism actually is.
Please dont get offensive and start talking about US politics etc. not everyone here is from the US. Ask anyone I dont do flame wars, just conversation.
A communist society in its self if there ever had been one and there hasnt been. The Soviet Union was not communist, ask anyone who has read Marx if it was and they will tell you no.
Lenins death was the death of communism not 1990. What you had in Russia and indeed China now are dictatorships that use communism as a shield for their fascist ideas.
God Im rambling, sorry, Im not sure this makes sense to anyones argument but I just felt a need to do something here. I expect what Ive said is flawed but oh well it passed the time I was waiting for my dinner.
You are right in the assuption that americans guage communism in a negative light. But one can't help but look at examples of comunist approaches both in American society and abroad. To date no example exists of a prosperous communist society. Even in closed habitat experiments.
The closest thing I have ever seen to communism is the US Military. Maybe I am over simplifying things. But as a highly trained specialist who worked several days with no sleep as often as most people have weekends off. I got paid the same and had the same benefits and priveledges of the office clerk working 9 to 5 and playing ping pong most of the day.
Ennis wrote:
Sorry dude, but this is total bullshit. Where do you get this type of idea in your head from? This sounds like utter non-sense to most Americans. You Euro's may believe this sort of trash, but don't bring it to us as fact.Quote:
I'm sorry but I always find it surprising how deeply ingrained US propaganda is on its people, surely in a society which gives its people individual rights wouldnt be so quick to force such obviously biased views on people.
I used to wonder why most Americans hated Europe and now I know why. It's bullshit statements like this one that really piss us off. You guys can believe what you want across that great pond, but don't be surprised if the majority of Americans like myself take issue with your absurd comments.
I'd be surprised if the Democrats even subscribed to this point of view! There is no propaganda in the United States, we hear all angles and we are free to choose and think what we want. ****in jealous nations. How many times must we spill our blood to save your asses!
OK perhaps I have my right wing nut job filter set to high but what I got fom paulies post is that he feels that a goverment should force its views on people and that we need ot all happly accept that?
Ennis: don't get to high and mighty european nations do there hold there own in spewing propaganda at its citizans (the hole euro fiasco has shon us that) remember western europ is the birht place of facisim (an idiology which is aining strength again).
I have noticed a common mistake here, people seem to be equateing comunisim with socialism. While they normaly go hand in hand you can have capatilistc comunes and socalist representitive democracy's.
edit: to fix tirdness typo
When did I send you an email bballad? :confused: :rolleyes:Quote:
OK perhaps I have my right wing nut job filter set to high but what I got fom paulies emali is that he feels that a goverment should force its views on people and that we need ot all happly accept that?
Furthermore, I can't hardly understand a damn thing your typing here. That could be the source of my misunderstanding you.
BBallad is like the curse of the billy goat accept the thing the curse effects mosty is his typing. Man clean the doritos and cashews out of your keyboard BBallad. Or is that supposed to be some kind of homemade encryption you have going there.
To quote the words of famous philosopher Homer J. Simpson, "Sure, communism works, in theory". Sounds great and all, but Marx and the rest of the commie nutjobs were devising a system that could never work in the real world. In the world that we inhabit, people get pissed if they are not paid their share for what they do. When people get pissed, they get pissed at something. If it's the government that's not paying them fairly, then they get pissed at the government. When a government is pissing off their citizens and they know it, they get facist on their ass. So, in a communist society, you either get pissed at the government and "disappear" into Siberia, or you pick the easiest job you can find and get paid the same as those in higher level positions. This will cause the nations economy to suck, as everyone will start to choose these easy jobs and get paid to watch their asses grow. It doesn't work and will never work, because Marx, Lenin, and that other guy didn't take into account the fact that no one does anything for free.Quote:
Out of interest have you read any of the works of Karl Marx, Lenin, Trotsky. Even Derrida who succumbs to the view that capitalism has meant communism is unworkable but accepts that Marxism is neccessary is order to show the ills and there are so many ills of capitalist society.
this would be socialism you are talking about. on that capitialism works well in theory, but in practice you need a blending of the two, people are short sighted and greedy if power is held in too few hands (the goverment for scoialism, large corperations for capitalism.) those in power will exploite every one else.Quote:
Originally posted here by TheRepublican
To quote the words of famous philosopher Homer J. Simpson, "Sure, communism works, in theory". Sounds great and all, but Marx and the rest of the commie nutjobs were devising a system that could never work in the real world. In the world that we inhabit, people get pissed if they are not paid their share for what they do. When people get pissed, they get pissed at something. If it's the government that's not paying them fairly, then they get pissed at the government. When a government is pissing off their citizens and they know it, they get facist on their ass. So, in a communist society, you either get pissed at the government and "disappear" into Siberia, or you pick the easiest job you can find and get paid the same as those in higher level positions. This will cause the nations economy to suck, as everyone will start to choose these easy jobs and get paid to watch their asses grow. It doesn't work and will never work, because Marx, Lenin, and that other guy didn't take into account the fact that no one does anything for free.
Ok guys, once again Im not a communist, capitalist, anythingist, buddhist etc. Im just an observer in the finest philosophical tradition. I want to point things out to see how you guys answer, to see how you defend your viewpoints, why you hold them so dear etc. not because Im a radical French socialist out to demonise George Bush and overthrow world capitalism!
Paulie.
Its my opinion I dont bring it as fact. It's Europeans by the way, we dont call you Dollars. ;)Quote:
Sorry dude, but this is total bullshit. Where do you get this type of idea in your head from? This sounds like utter non-sense to most Americans. You Euro's may believe this sort of trash, but don't bring it to us as fact.
Excellent point, sorry anti-europeanism, sorry drivel.Quote:
I used to wonder why most Americans hated Europe and now I know why. It's bullshit statements like this one that really piss us off. You guys can believe what you want across that great pond, but don't be surprised if the majority of Americans like myself take issue with your absurd comments.
There is propaganda everywhere.Quote:
There is no propaganda in the United States,
Great way to build relations, maybe Bush could use this one with Blair next time they meet.Quote:
****in jealous nations.
The Commie bastards you speak of also split a lot of blood, a lot more fighting against Hitler.Quote:
How many times must we spill our blood to save your asses!
ballad
I know, the EU even my own government spew propaganda or as its called now spin. I think Paulie just dosent accept that politics serves one set of people, the politicians.Quote:
Ennis: don't get to high and mighty european nations do there hold there own in spewing propaganda at its citizans (the hole euro fiasco has shon us that) remember western europ is the birht place of facisim (an idiology which is aining strength again
Socialism in the eyes of say a real communist would be a stepping stone to communism, social democracy is a watering down of socialism to the point where the stepping stone is removed etc. I wouldnt consider any government as yet to be truly socialist.Quote:
I have noticed a common mistake here, people seem to be equateing comunisim with socialism. While they normaly go hand in hand you can have capatilistc comunes and socalist representitive democracy's.
The Republican
This is what happened in a Stalinist authoritarian society not a communist society. Do you honestly believe that Marx would have agreed that Russia was a communist society or that Stalin was any good, the man made communism a dead weight and allowed the US who like anybody would do knock their oppenents off the face of the earth. A problem however is that liberalism is no free to do what it wants, like I dont believe that the US form of government suits everywhere in the world, sure it works for the US and you guys are happy but does that mean it will make us all happy to live in a consumer society etc. These are thoughts not attacks. I dont care what the hell you guys believe but I do point out arguments as this thread is purely dominated by American opinion. Its too one sided and thus unhealthy.Quote:
So, in a communist society, you either get pissed at the government and "disappear" into Siberia, or you pick the easiest job you can find and get paid the same as those in higher level positions.
Why hasnt anybody without an American flag under their name posted here?
The problem is that communism in many cases leads to a "Stalinist authoritarian society", perhaps not as extreme as the former USSR, but the leaders of these nations tend to not care about their citizens' individual rights. In a communist society, everyone is supposedly equal, not just meaning they have equal opportunities, but work for the sake of working only to be paid the same amount as everyone else. If I was a sysadmin in a communist society, but was being paid like a truck driver, I'd either slack off or quit and become a truck dirver. And, as communist countries need sysadmins as well as truck drivers, they better use all their new drivers to transport some new sysadmins! Because the government has to control the economy in a communist society to make sure everything is equal, and every governing body in the history of the world is composed of 50% incompetent *******s, the economy sucks and the people are unhappy. So, to ensure everyone is equally unhappy, as everyone living in a commie state has to be exactly equal, the government starts pushing people around and getting rid of dissenters. That's how "Stalinist authoritarian societies" form, when the government has too much power.Quote:
This is what happened in a Stalinist authoritarian society not a communist society. Do you honestly believe that Marx would have agreed that Russia was a communist society or that Stalin was any good, the man made communism a dead weight and allowed the US who like anybody would do knock their oppenents off the face of the earth.
Yeah, we're everywhere, get used to it :DQuote:
Why hasnt anybody without an American flag under their name posted here?
I can count the amount of Irish people on here on one hand and still have fingers left to pick my nose! ;)Quote:
I gets claustrophic with you yanks, god damn it send some of those puters over to Mexico or something!
what about that wankers?Quote:
I gets claustrophic with you yanks, god damn it send some of those puters over to Mexico or something!
:D
Hey! I'm half Irish! Just don't live in Ireland :pQuote:
Originally posted here by Ennis
I can count the amount of Irish people on here on one hand and still have fingers left to pick my nose! ;)
I gets claustrophic with you yanks, god damn it send some of those puters over to Mexico or something!
Unfortintly with out vigalance democratic sociteties also tend towards totalitarianism with out proper vigilance as well (just look at the rise of facism in many european nations and the very far right/left in the US). What it comes down to is that stupid people like to be told what to do, and their are a lot of stupid people in the world.Quote:
Originally posted here by TheRepublican
The problem is that communism in many cases leads to a "Stalinist authoritarian society", perhaps not as extreme as the former USSR, but the leaders of these nations tend to not care about their citizens' individual rights.
Oh and as for your pay analogy, well with the way H1B and offshoreing is going prety soon sysadmins in our capitalistc society will be makeing less then a truck driver.
That offshore thing has been going on for a while. First bringing in low paying IT by the masses, putting them up in apartments and eroding current local positions. But, I was right there in the ranks shopping for the absolute cheapest bargins. We all do it and it's a collective issue. Shop around and pick a mom and pop company. I have changed my ways and now place a different strategy on my support requirements. I could go down that road and speak of political viewpoints chasing away business to foreign shores but I won't go there. :)
On the flip side, the "Follow the sun" tech support strategy sometimes pays off at 2am when you can get someone on the line for a critical outage in about 1 minute vs 1 hour. Twice I had some very nice experiences with Cisco TAC from Japan and another from Autstrailia. When yo ass is on the line an hour is a huge chip.
Isnt there like 40 odd million Americans who claim Irish ancestry?Quote:
In Dublin it is now odd not to see a US tourist taking pics! I spend most of the day dodging getting into their photos!
Its part of the Multiculturealism crap that gose on in this country, no one is an american, hey all must have some ethnicity, its rather amuseing in a sad way.Quote:
Originally posted here by Ennis
Isnt there like 40 odd million Americans who claim Irish ancestry?
In Dublin it is now odd not to see a US tourist taking pics! I spend most of the day dodging getting into their photos!
Maybe I'll see you there sometime. Don't worry, I'll bring lots of film! :D :pQuote:
Originally posted here by Ennis
Isnt there like 40 odd million Americans who claim Irish ancestry?
In Dublin it is now odd not to see a US tourist taking pics! I spend most of the day dodging getting into their photos!
lololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol that was good "therepublican"