Saddam..fair trial??..

I think that Saddam should be put on trial by the Shi'ah muslims and not the Sunni. The Sunni are the ones who support him and who are still "trying" to put up a fight in his behalf. As long as he has been in power he has committed crimes against the Shi'ah muslims who are the minority. I've read a lot about the crimes he commited against the Shi'ah...mass murder, abductions, torture, and rape are only a few. I say we let the Shi'ah bring justice to Iraq and let them execute that ******* in the most brutal way. After reading about how he had so many women gang raped and tortured to death...I think there is no room for forgiveness, and that he deserves a brutal death...not just a quick execution with a bullet in the head. Strangle him with barbed-wire while he's being ****ed in his ass with a splintered baseball bat!!!....and let the families of the victims do it! Or....stand him next to a tree stump about waist high....nail his dick to the stump....pour gasoline on it and light it on fire...then hand him a razor sharp knife and tell him to make a choice...lmfaooo...either let it be burned off...or cut it off!! Sorry if I have offended anyone...but I think crimes such as the ones he is guilty of are worthy of a brutal punishment. :D :D :D

Yes, and I'm sure his crimes were punishments for what he believed to be even worse crimes, and therefore justified in his mind.

Until you grow up and realize that what you are suggesting is no better than what he has done, regardless of your intentions, you will forever be the kind of person who is responsible for the same evil he is.

The very fundamental principles of justice are based on the fact that we can always be wrong. In his mind, what he was doing was justified. Who are we to judge his morals based on our own? Who says that he is wrong and we are right? Who made you God to judge all of this?

We believe we are right, and he is wrong, and we will therefore punish him based on that belief. However, we must bear in mind that our moral principles may in fact be wrong when we choose a sentence for him.

What you are proposing is called cruel and unusual punishment, which all civilized nations in the world agreed to stop after the first world war.

You are incredibly naive if you expect the civilized world to fight for our principles without living up to them. We have no right to judge others by a moral code which we do not follow. But living up to our principles, in some small way, grants us the right to judge others on them.

Someone once said, "it is far easier to fight for our principles than to live up to them". People like you are living proof.

Lmfaoooo....I would have expected no more/no less from a Canadian. Thank God I'm American...and not some nut-less Canadian. I bet a lot of canadian cowards feel safe just because they are in Americas attic. If world justice was left up to typical cowards like yourself...the world would be over-run with terrorists and tyrants. America is the ONLY superpower in the world...and as an American...I don't owe any coward canadian any explanation for my words. Thank God and America that your country is safe. I'm American, arrogant, and damn proud of it! One more thing....get a life..and grow some balls you coward!!...lmfaooooooo!!! :o :D :o

So, as an American, the idea of justice and a fair trial are not part of what you believe in? Nor is the idea of expression of opinions?

Personally, I'd rather see him tried in the World Court for Crimes against Humanity. It's too easy to be blinded by anger and hate than let justice happen.

And as for the coward comments, I'd like to point out a couple of things:

a) our Armed Forces are not equipped well enough to be of any use so it would be foolish for us to send out troops to their deaths like that

b) since there is a lack of proof (ie., weapons of mass destruction) we didn't agree with going in and invading a nation

As for Stiek's comments, he does has a point. It is interesting that we do enforce our moral beliefs on others because we believe our view is more right. Didn't this same thing happen when Europeans arrived in America and destroy the native indian way of life and political system? This isn't new that the concepts of one "power" override everyone else. Does it make that one power more correct? Not necessarily.

I'd be curious to see what happens now that the villian is caught. Who will Bush seem like a superhero against now?

Oh.. and as last thing, I'm going to move this to Cosmos as I think the discussion fits more towards that forum's ideals.

hashish - I agree completely with Striek here - his opinons have nothing to do with cowardice - his opinions have more to do with acting like a thinking and civilised human being - which clearly you are not, you're actions would make you no better than Saddam. I agree Saddam may well have done terrible things to others for which he should be tried, judged and treated accordingly. However to start crowing over it like you're God almighty is quite wrong.

One thing I'd like to point out to you is that America is currently over $87 billion in debt - supposing the rest of the world calls in Americas debt, what you gonna do fight the rest of the world? When will people like you realise that if the human race is going to get anywhere we need to start working together as a single species - note that is not the same as being a socialist liberal commie or whatever you care to call it.

It's *******s like you that give your country and fellow countrymen (and women) a bad name - grow up why don't you - maybe your balls will drop and you'll be able to grow a beard too

Z

[edit] and as ever MsMittens puts it so much better [/edit]

There should be no trial. It is a bad idea both politically and legally.
Victory is reward enough. The former head of state can be discretely exiled
problem solved.
:cool:

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The former head of state can be discretely exiled

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ROFL.. he won't live beyond a year. Someone will find him and do "justice". I wonder if he will end up in limbo like all those "Al-Qaeda" suspects that fine American citizens pay to house, feed, etc. Now, that'd be irony.

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over $87 billion in debt

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I thought it was trillion?? I know (read at CNN I believe) that the Bush government has spending out of control, albeit some of it has to be realistically for security improvements. But I wonder if there are some "hidden" purchases. Add to that the new announcements of putting a base on the moon by .. what was it? 2007 and a man on Mars in 2015.

Massive spending and owing somewhere.

MsMittens.... I agree with u on some points, but when some ******* replies to a post...ya' gotta fight fire with fire. No offense 2 u or any other canadians...just 2 the dickhead who thought he was superior and had 2 be put in his place. Saddam should be tried before some sort of world court....but why let other nations in on it if they had nothing to do with the occupation, capture, etc. Ur right though, anger is a powerful emotion and gets the best of us sometimes...but what the hell!!...after all the innocent women and children he had raped, tortured, and killed...I think he deserves a certain and brutal death. :D

I feel the need to aplogize Striek...we have this "condition" in America, it's called trailer park trash. You can usually tell who they are by their cool nicknames liks "hashish, I smoke pot, meth head" in some attempt to impress others with their percieved counter-cultural alliances... but in reality, they are just punk kids (keeping in mind that age has nothing to do with maturity)

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No offense 2 u or any other canadians...just 2 the dickhead who thought he was superior and had 2 be put in his place. Saddam should be tried before some sort of world court....but why let other nations in on it if they had nothing to do with the occupation, capture, etc.

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I'll give you a prime example. My mom was killed by her partner on July 13, 1992. My sister was 8 and the only witness. By your logic, only the RCMP and my family should be allowed to try him in a court of law. That's flawed logic. We were affected by the events and thus our judgement clouded. The same applies. If anything, the counties that had zero to do with the events in Iraq should be the ones to try him if it's a question of fair trial.

And I don't think Striek was trying to be an *******, arrogant or otherwise. I believe that's your interpretation of it. Your response struck me as very arrogant after the fact. You put forth that the only ideal in the world acceptable is the US and that's because it's a superpower. So what happens when the rest of the world has had enough and comes back against the US, much like so many bully victims ganging up on a bully? Neither is right.

The US should be careful how it progresses as history has shown that sometimes arrogance by a world power can bite you in the ass. While today everything is fine, tomorrow may very well be different.

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I think he deserves a certain and brutal death.

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A lot of people deserve a brutal death.

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Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

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http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/k...1&byte=5015363

The war wasn't fought for "justice" in some isolated sense, but because Iraq, its
government and armies were believed to be a strategic threat to its
neighbors, and to world peace.

By defeating the armies, deposing the government, and occupying the country,
all of those objectives have been accomplished. We should be
content with that.
:cool:

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I thought it was trillion??

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it could well be but $87 billion is the last figure I know with certainty, I think it rose shortly after that to $120 billion but I wasn't going to say that since I'm not sure I can wholly back it up.

You'll also have to excuse me with the large numbers cos I'm from the UK and I was taught in school to think that a billion meant a million million (10^12) where the US (and Canada? and possibly most of the rest of the world now) has been taught to think of it is a thousand million (10^9). A trillion is like stupid numbers as far as I'm concerned (10^18) and everyone else thinks its equivalent to what I think of as a billion i.e. 10^12. I think UK schools have changed this now though to be inline with everyone else but since it's been a while when I was last at high school I'm not sure.

Z

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America is the ONLY superpower in the world...and as an American...I don't owe any coward canadian any explanation for my words

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And I think I'm superior?

I guess the difference is that America is superior. But that doesn't make them right, too. Nobody deserves a brutal and horrible death, whatever their crimes may be. Our responsibilty is to make the world a better place, which can equally be served by imprisoning him. You cannot eradicate torture and brutality while practicing it.

Personally, I'm glad he's gone. The world is a better place without him. But his death will not bring back the people he executed, nor will it feed the Iraqi people. I cannot see how your solution will make the world a better place than mine will.

But hey, I could be wrong.

groovicus> We got that here too. Every country has its share of bad apples. But at least there's people like you who see their narrow-minded opinions as a problem and not a solution.

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America is the ONLY superpower in the world...and as an American...I don't owe any coward canadian any explanation for my words

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Superpowers come and go, look at the Roman empire, in the future China or India or something will probably become the/a superpower.

Personally this is what I think about the USA (no offense to any member here):
The AVERAGE american is dumb compared to, well Belgium for example :D, americans have rarely invented things, they are good at marketing and attract foreign professors, etc.
So, it's invented in their country but it was a foreigner that actually invented it...

Heres my view on it. Since I am an American. I do believe that he does need a trial. I think we should let Iraq's new government give him the trial. Then he also needs to be tried in world court.

Thats not a big long parapgraph or anything, but its what i believe should happen.

I am glad that we have finally caputered saddam. Its a bout time it happened.

Groovicus....grow up,boy. Don't beg me for attention...try someone else.

Anyway, as far as Americans not inventing things....what abt discovering electricity?....telephones?...the list goes on and on. But, I've even read that the ancient Egyptians had invented something similar to the layden jar to hold a charge of electricity and light the tunnels in the pyramids, etc....hmmm...also read that there r no burn marks from torches in the tunnels....never know..maybe I'm wrong....not that I really give a **** anyway,lol. I just like to say s'thing arrogant just to see how fast the *****s come out of the woodwork. :rolleyes:

Actually, Bell was Scottish. Another great invention, invented in America by a foriegner.

Americans didn't "discover" electricity, either... About.com.
Like with most inventions, there is no definite answer as to who discovered what. It's team-work ;)

Hi,

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But, I've even read that the ancient Egyptians had invented something similar to the layden jar to hold a charge of electricity and light the tunnels in the pyramids, etc....hmmm...also read that there r no burn marks from torches in the tunnels....never know..maybe I'm wrong....

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You are perfectly correct sir! perverse though it may seem, I have actually seen these Leyden Jars in the Museum of Mankind in Baghdad...........remember......the one that got looted? You put seawater in the jar and get about 1.2v DC

I too have a certain "Old Testament" outlook, but I think that when you are dealing with warcrimes, crimes against humanity and dictatorial regimes, you have gone beyond the normal bounds of conventional justice? I believe that it is impossible for such persons to receive a "fair trial" as such..... "to the victors belong the spoils"?

To put it another way, the enormity is so great that it goes beyond the "scales" of our normal judicial systems?

Also, a single individual cannot be held responsible for all that has happened..........they need a sizeable support mechanism....these are the cockroaches that hide in the woodwork after the dictator is overthrown. Also their activites are more understandable and allocatable.

I would suggest that the time has come for the roach hunt.

Cheers

"So, it's invented in their country but it was a foreigner that actually invented it..."

Well, let's see is it possible that these inventors found their own countries so oppressive that they had to come to the US to invent their inventions?

America has been blessed by many people coming to our shores with great ideas.

The comparism to the Roman empire was a good one. There have been many world powers that in time fade to be replaced by someone else. In time the US's power will probably wane. We can only hope that the government of the country that replaces us is a constitutional democracy and not a totalitarian dictatorship.

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Well, let's see is it possible that these inventors found their own countries so oppressive that they had to come to the US to invent their inventions?

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actually fourdc - speaking for inventors from the UK (that includes Scotland, Wales and N Ireland AFAIC) - the main reason why they all go to the US is quite simply cash and the opportunity the US usually provides because of that cash. I can't speak for anywhere else but the UK is notoriously crap at supporting its eccentric inventors - some of whom come up with absolutely blinding ideas. The US is usually quite happy (seemingly) to throw lots of cash at an idea in an attempt to make it work (and if you don't believe me look at the amount of cash that the CIA and military spent on MKULTRA, project Phoenix and project Rainbow - just as examples). I'm not saying that throwing tons of cash at an idea is a bad thing mind you!

To be sure I'm sure some inventors do go to the US because of oppressive regimes back home - just pointing out that not all of them do - sometimes it's merely due to lack of funding in their own countries.

Z

But again they left their homelands for lack of support and they came to the US and got it.

true... but it's more a case of leaving their homeland by choice in search of financial support rather than running for their lives in fear of an oppressive regime - not quite the same thing IMHO.

Z

the world is in danger as long as he lives and probably for a short time after his death. there are those that would threaten and commit major acts of terrorism to have him released, not because he's such a good man or important to their cause but just to 'show' the west. or more to the point show those they want to follow them how weak the west is.

the best scenerio would be a quick assination by an iraqi. i wouldn't be surprised if the cia sets this up and i for one would praise them for it

As far as inventors...that was then, this is now:

http://www.ipcreators.org/congress/1...5/national.htm

National Inventors Hall of Fame inductees according to country of birth and country worked

Where Born---------Where did work--- Number of Inventors---- Percent
United States------United States------------88 ---------------- 69%
Foreign---=---------United States------------28------------------22%
Foreign----------------Foreign------------------12-------------------9%

Total World 128 100%

You know what I think? I think that no country or any of the people in it are better or worse than the other. They are just different....And that includes America. ;)
Saddam should be tried by Iraq. America had nothing to do with it in the first place. Just because our president sent our servicemen and women over to Iraq doesn't make it our business and doesn't make America any better than Canada, Belgium, UK, Germany, France and every other country who didn't agree with us. It's like posting something on AO. Just because you don't agree with something, doesn't mean you should neg the person for posting it. I don't know what inventors and such have to do with Saddam getting a fair trial..lol..just an observation


In case you all were wondering, I am in the US.

Thank you@Tedob1. A lot of you are making some really good points. Every great "empire" will come to an end. America is just the newest chapter of mankind. No telling how long it will last. Someone also mentioned about funding and foreign inventors. You're right about that....there are people who are more than capable of inventing things, had they had the funding. When it comes down to it...we are all brothers, all human, and race/nationality really matters not. We are all given the same mental capacity(most of us, lol) when we come into this world.
It's 2 bad that people t'day focus so much on personal wealth and greed...while letting millions of people all over the world go hungry and sleep with no shelter, not to mention poor..if any..health care. And yes, before s'one asks...I do give to cherity as often as I can. :)

The ideal of justice and equality have a very different meaning to those outside of common western cultural influences. Even in the west, the idea of summary execution for mass induced violent crime is not foreign. Saddam may not get a fair trial for his actions. That's normally the end to criminal dictators, only they are usually dragged into the streets and tortured before being hung or beheaded by an angry blood thirsty mob. Saddam at least has the opportunity to be dealt his blow with some dignity, which he may not deserve in my own western civilized eyes.

Who knows... they Iraqi tribunal or court may let him go and exile him? I highly doubt it though. I think when it comes down to it, it would be hard to find anyone outside the Saddam's party who hasn't had a neighbor or family member that was adversely affected by Saddam’s reign even given the fact that to elude coalition forces for so long, he is deeply entrenched in the company of supporters who are still powerful.

USA National Debt

Almost 7 trillion dollars...

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

And killing Saddam will only make him a martyr.

It was 5.7 trillion when Clinton was the boss. I remember when it was only 3 trillion! We should all have elected Ross! :)

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Originally posted here by CXGJarrod
USA National Debt

Almost 7 trillion dollars...

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

And killing Saddam will only make him a martyr.

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True Jarrod, but keeping him alive could cause even more problems. People/groups faithful to him may attempt numerous things (blowing up more buildings, Bio-terror, etc) in an attempt to have him released. I don't know what the answer is, kill him, he's a martyr, keep him alive, and more innocent people may die because of him. (sounds like a lose lose situation to me)


Cheers:

Very true DjM. I am very divided on the subject myself. He has done some very terrible things...

I would like to my perspective of the situation. Okay he is a bad boy but he was a bad boy when he was America’s boy. During the Iran war and even before that USA actively supported and armed Saddam knowing that he was a bad guy and could become a threat to world peace. As for his trail I think he should be tried at either a Iraqi court or War Crimes Tribunal. He deserves to be hanged and should be hanged. “And killing Saddam will only make him a martyr.” I don’t think so Saddam wasn’t very much liked in the Arab world he was a socialist and formed a socialist kind of dictatorship (I would like to add here that there is no country in the Arab world that is fully democratic). His socialist views (allowing women to study and work, not to wear the burka) wasn’t liked by the rest of the Arab world where laws are much more rigid and religion governs the states. He doesn’t have much of a support base except only a few Sunni’s around his home town. and for the ongoing attacks on American forces I don’t think they are his supporters they are terrorists and terrorists don’t fight for anybody they just kill anybody they think is against them.

“If world justice was left up to typical cowards like yourself...the world would be over-run with terrorists and tyrants”
Who created Taliban? Who armed them with stinger missals? Who created Osama?. Terrorism didn’t start on 9/11

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Terrorism didn’t start on 9/11

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Terroism like we see today started 40 years ago. Or 2000years ago, if you put things in perspective. The ease at which terrorists move and train preople, is beginning to stop. At least for a while. Who knows, some day - if we are weak and soft and allow radicals to bully and corupt us - we may find battles in our own southwest. Groups such as La Voz de Aztlan may be knocking on your door some day to take their "occupied" territory back. Every political boudary in the world can be disputed this way, if one side is easily coherced into giving up.

This is what i think should happon, just for fun he should be tourtured till he is with in inches of his life, let recover then tourtured again.
The tourture proceadures should be lond and painfull.


Nightfalls_Girl

being an am hw can u talk of fair trial
anyway i agree u!