Passion

So....I haven't posted anything in like 3 months but I've been around.... Since I haven't seen anybody else bring this up: I was wondering what people think about Mel Gibson and this new movie coming out in a couple of weeks called "The Passion of Christ" (most people 'round here shorten it to just "Passion"). I just watched an interview between Mel Gibson and Diane Sawyer on 20/20 and for once they didn't make all of Christianity look like complete idiots. Mel Gibson produced it so they couldn't screw him over with some obscure thing he said, which I thought was brilliant on his part. It also didn't hurt that he actually knew what he was talking about and doesn't have any prejudice issues or some crap that they usually use to crucify (no pun intended) whatever Christian they're putting on TV. After seeing that, I'm actually excited about the movie coming out. What does everyone else think/know about all this?

I have only heard a little bit from some Jewish friends and a little bit on NPR. From what my Jewsish friends have said, it sounds like the movie is very anti-semantic (sp?), but its probably coming from a biased point of view. I am interested enough to go see it, and he has done a decent job of rousing enough people on a sore subject to go see his movie. I will probably go just so I can form an opinion on the movie.

Ya, I think anyone with any interest should at least go so they can have their own opinion about it. From what I've heard and seen, I don't think it's anti-semitic. The Jewish people that I've heard from are just pissed that it depicts the Jews as being responsible for the death of Jesus. A lot of Christians would say since Jesus is God and he died so we could be forgiven of our sins, all Christians are just as responsible.... When you think about it, there were only two people groups in that area. One were the (usual) Romans and they certainly weren't afraid to do cruel and terrible things and the other is the Jews. According to history (outside the Bible), it was Roman centurians that actually committed the physical act of crucifying him and according to the writings of Pontius Pilate (the Roman governor of that region at the time), he saw no reason to crucify Jesus but the Jews were adamant about it so Pilate consented and had him flogged and crucified to pacify the Jews. At the time, the Jews were pissed b/c Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh and they believed he was speaking heresy. I really need to see the movie before I can say for sure that it's not anti-semitic but if people say it's anti-semitic just because it portrays the Jews for being responsible for Jesus's death, then isn't it just telling the truth?

I think Jesus is fascinating and I have tremendous respect for Mel Gibson. I will be seeing it on opening night and I don’t go to the cinema that often. The Pope and several Cardinals saw it months ago. They all liked it, so I think its place as an art form, a historical reference, and a biblical reference could make it a fantastic experience. I think the fact that Mel made it, has something to do with the lack of a Christian backlash by Hollywood and the media. Mel is da man. He must have his own passion for history and religion. Look at a sampling of his last major films: Brave Heart, The Patriot, Signs etc.

It is our sins that caused his death. Not just any particular group. So I still can't see why people would say that it's anti-sematic ???

"Gibson made a point of noting that he is not blaming the Jews for the crucifixion. Rather, all humanity and each individual shares the blame for what Jesus went through on our behalf."

That's my 2 cents .....

I will definitely be going to see this. I'm getting really sick of the media demonizing Mel over this. It seems to be coming from two sides. Those who believe it's Anti-semitic(though most who've seen it say it isn't) and those who don't want Jesus story told. To the first group, well, since I haven't seen it there's not much response other than to say high level Jewish clergy were involved in having him crucified. Our incessant need to be politically correct doesn't justify revising history. As for if it's specifically anti-Jewish, I'll have to see it for myself. As for the second group, I'm guessing these are the same people who complain that their free speech rights are being trounced by the state department. Essentially, we believe in free speech as long as it fits in with our secular vision of America. It makes me laugh that these people want it both ways. Anyway, it's Mel's $30 million and he can spend it how he wants since this is America. I for one respect a guy who believes in something so much that he's willing to put his balls on the chopping block. I certainly don't share his conservative religious vigor, but I can appreciate his courage.

Anyway, I think it's going to be interesting whether you're seeing this as a religious person, a historian, or as someone who simply appreciates Jesus' true message of tolerance and forgiveness. I'm not speaking of the various churches who sometimes use his name to spread intolerance. His life and the strict code often perpetuated by various church groups are very different.

Taken from IMDB.com...


When this Latin and Aramaic language film was announced, Mel Gibson stated that his intent was to release it without subtitles, letting the performances speak for themselves. However, if it is necessary, subtitles would be added later. Also, he stated that regardless of the cost of the project, that this would be "good for the soul".
At several small private screenings for a select group of clerics, subtitles were added, which Gibson intends to remove from the finished version when it is released.
The figure of Christ during the crucifixion is actually James Caviezel, despite popular rumors - no animatronics were used.
It's Mel Gibson's hands that nail Christ to the cross during the Crucifixion scene. Gibson decided this because he didn't want any further conspiracy about who was blamed for killing Jesus.

Got tickets for opening night. I am very excited about seeing it. A can't believe that Christians are so divided over this movie and that the Jewish community and the anti defamation league are so sensitive. These events happened 2 thousand years ago. It's no secret, what's the big issue? Who will blame anyone for that? He chose to die; he chose to suffer, without the events as they happened what would have become of Jesus? He chose to die for us? Am I right? But he didn't die, did he? No one killed anyone; didn't I learn that Jesus was resurrected?

Technically Jesus resurrected *himself*....and yes he did choose to die for us tho I get the impression from Scripture that he would've chosen a different *way* to die (he wasn't exactly happy about being flogged and then crucified). As for the other questions, I don't know. There shouldn't be any big issue over the movie, but there is. I'm told that the movie only deals with Jesus' last couple of days leading up to the crucifixion (the worst days of his life....probly of anyone's life) anyway and only *hints* at the resurrection. The movie only tells a very small (though critical) portion of the story.

Hmm I made it sound like he went tap dancing his way to the crucifixion. That is not what I meant, in fact I am no scholar of the bible, but Jesus was a man. He suffered extreme brutality by our standards and he was probably immensely scared. Hmm, in fact it is that violence that may be some of the negativity Christians have with it, even while they display macabre symbols of Jesus physically nailed to a cross in their churches. Perhaps it's the violence at which he dies and the suffering he endured that makes him loved so much? From what I understand this movie portrays those event's with a vivid reality.

Its been a long time since I looked at my bible so I will try to get this right. If we are to belive the bible then Jesus was executed under the Roman empire. The governor of the time give the choice to the hebrew high clergy to save him. They demanded death. It so happened that at the time death by crucifixion was the norm for the crimes of which he was accused. I have not seen the film yet so I can not say truely if it may be taken as anti-jewish or not. There is not much anyone can say about the act itself, it happened. The only thing the jewish community may complain about is if the film goes out of its way to blacken them. I have problems thinking Mel Gibson would do that. I will reserve my final judgement till after I have seen the film and know what I am talking about.

I'd go see the movie if it wasn't rated R. I don't think it should take a movie to portray Christ's death. Any movie produced can't come anywhere near what it was really like. If Christ died for all of our sins, then that's bad. Every persons sins accumulate to a lot of pain. It says in the Bible that Christ was bleeding from every pore. He must have been bleeding pretty bad just for us. And that's an understatement.

It doesn't take a movie to portray his death, there have been dozens of those already. From what I gather Mel had a tough time in his life, he was suicidal etc... and he found some sort of "relief" in Christ. In fact this relationship grew to a passionate one? I had no idea Mel felt this way, but it's what I am reading. Anyway, he wanted to express some of his own presonal feelings in a story, after all he is a great actor and an excellent producer/director - that is what he does. So he wanted to make a movie and not many shared his vision so he forked up some money and made it anyway.

I don't understand why there is all of this discussion about whether or not the film is anti-semetic. If Gibson sticks to the facts laid out in the Bible then the anti-semetic argument is moot at best. Way Back in the day..... Jewish leaders condemed Jesus to death, and the Roman government performed the execution, it's pretty clear cut. Jesus died for all of us and I do not know of any Christian that blames the Jewish people for killing Jesus, however these same Christians will agree that the Jewish leaders at the time were responsible for his demise. There is a fine distinction between casting blame for an action and understanding what individuals are responsible for an action. It's summed in the concept of Hate the sin, but Love the sinner. Christians should not place any blame for the death of Jesus, because if Jesus had not died on the cross then God's prophecies would not have been fullfilled and our existance woul be one without the hope of salvation and eternal life. IMHO

There are alot of differing opinions out there. Just like any book or movie or piece of art, the critic will see what he desires or perhaps take away his own interpretation based on something internal. Here is my critic of this movie, and from my other posts around AO one could get a general idea of my thoughts. The buzz in America is rampant so I'll be precise:

Incredibly Amazing Experience.

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Originally posted here by RoadClosed
There are alot of differing opinions out there. Just like any book or movie or piece of art, the critic will see what he desires or perhaps take away his own interpretation based on something internal. Here is my critic of this movie, and from my other posts around AO one could get a general idea of my thoughts. The buzz in America is rampant so I'll be precise:

Incredibly Amazing Experience.

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I also think that if you go into the movie thinking one thing or another (such as this movie is going to be anti semetic), you will probably try to find things in the movie that conform to your point of view. I will be seeing it in the next couple of weeks, because I have been reading a bit into it and it sounds like a historically accurate movie.

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There is a reason why the blood depicted in “The Passion” is so “controversial.” According to the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (the main eyewitness accounts we have to the crucifixion and the inspiration for Gibson’s script), the blood of Jesus Christ was shed for the atonement of sin – the individual sin of us all – and that is what the media elites cannot stand about this film. As long as cinematic depictions of Jesus are restricted to images of a peaceful teacher standing on a hillside preaching the Sermon on the Mount, the story is no threat to their secular worldview. And as long as the story of his death is a sanitized version of the truth, wherein an innocent man utters a few words and then falls asleep on the cross, like some sort of first century lethal injection, then there is no outrage.

But when the public is allowed to see the full measure of God’s wrath poured out upon His own Son as the price to redeem fallen humanity, the story becomes “controversial.” At that point, the notion that human beings are basically good is threatened, as is all the other secular nonsense about man’s autonomy.

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http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/p/p...tton022804.htm

http://www.charlatanz.com/-/beerbetterthanjesus.php

-Cheers-

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When you have a Beer, you don’t knock on people’s doors trying to give it away.

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You just haven't gotten drunk enough
:cool:

Guess not Lol.. Maybe if there's a BBQ and my parents aren't there, eh.

-Cheers-

I saw the movie yesterday....and whoever said that a movie cannot come close to what it was really like was wrong. I can't describe it... I guess "shocking" is the best word but not just "holy crap that's horrible" but it sent my system into shock....I was emotionally, mentally, and even *physically* shaken (shocked). Now I understand how some people could think it was anti-Semitic. The high priest of the Jews was particularly cruel. The Romans were equally if not more cruel as they actually tortured him but the Jews were demanding it....and even though that's how it actually happened, it's no wonder the Jews are afraid it will make people angry at them. One thing is for sure: I'll never be able to take communion the same way again...

I have seen a nice "free" version. Lots of blood. My opinion of religion has reached a new low. No religion, at least 90% of the worlds problems disappear. All the people killed in the name of a Christian based god completely contradict the point of the religion. I am specifying Christian based because not all religions gods are portrayed as kind, or benevolent. Killing in the name of a Christian based god is hypocracy, there is no way around it. Killing people because of a book that you do not even know who wrote it; stories that people made up, why?

-Cheers-

God or no god, Jesus is real. Hisotrically he walked the earth and was put to death. Outside of religion there is historical context that even the Prophet Mohamad has commented on. Even without Jehova or Ali, human history may have been just as violent. Many conquests were not made with only God in mind, they were made for the power or one or a few individuals. Although I do agree with you, Chirstian abuses in the name of their faith is inexusable. While one may see this movie as testimate to the inhumanity of religion, I see it as a vivid reminder of the true word of Jesus.

The movie is brutal, disgusting..it had me holding on to my chair for 2 hours, grinding my teeth and cursing the hell out of jews and romans. I never saw so much blood and slaughter in a movie altogether...was that really necessary?
My question is, what kind of a message was Gibson trying to portray? That jesus was sacrificed to save humanity from their sins? Doesn't make sense to me. A God that's just and good will brutally allow one to be sacrificed in order to save the entire humanity? nah, don't make sense either.

What happened in the movie was common place, in ancient history. This particular story is about WHO it happened to and why.

I know they were real figures, but some of the stuff is stories or highly exagerated and altered.

-Cheers-

Yes they could be, but faith comes into play in believing that Jesus was the Messiah - the one who was promised to the Jews, the true King and the son of god. If you ignore that, Jesus is a man of love and respect. Those images cast onto the screen are eye witness accounts of his ordeal. He took one for the team, to use an analogy for today. In his eyes, mankind and humanity are the team.

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Originally posted here by amnesiac
The movie is brutal, disgusting..it had me holding on to my chair for 2 hours, grinding my teeth and cursing the hell out of jews and romans. I never saw so much blood and slaughter in a movie altogether...was that really necessary?
My question is, what kind of a message was Gibson trying to portray? That jesus was sacrificed to save humanity from their sins? Doesn't make sense to me. A God that's just and good will brutally allow one to be sacrificed in order to save the entire humanity? nah, don't make sense either.

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Hmmmm... one life to save billions. Makes perfect sense to me. To quote Kirk and Spock (I don't recall anyone bitching about this one) "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one."

As for the blood and slaughter, well, facts are facts. Gibson gave us an accurate portrayal (according to the experts) of the death of Jesus, a view that NEEDED to be shown. To see someone suffer in that manner and to know that he did it for you SHOULD evoke an emotional response....which it was meant to do.

Why curse the Romans and the Jews? They were doing exactly what God had ordained them to do as they had no choice in the matter....Jesus was meant to die for the sins of humanity. Deal with it.

Why is it that when people such as Mel Gibson who try to portray the truth get ridiculed for trying to show what Christ went through to die for all of our sins ? But when a movie such as Kill Bill which :

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The movie begins with "the Bride," a.k.a. Black Mamba, getting a shot in the head. She tells "Bill," -- the ring leader of the group called DIVAS (Deadly Viper Assassination Squad) -- that she is pregnant with his child, but he shoots her nonetheless.

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Producers such as this receive great praise ?? Seriously there's gotta be something wrong with society if this is deemed as great ??

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A God that's just and good will brutally allow one to be sacrificed in order to save the entire humanity? nah, don't make sense either.

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Read this link below :
The Life

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Yes they could be, but faith comes into play in believing that Jesus was the Messiah - the one who was promised to the Jews, the true King and the son of god. If you ignore that, Jesus is a man of love and respect. Those images cast onto the screen are eye witness accounts of his ordeal. He took one for the team, to use an analogy for today. In his eyes, mankind and humanity are the team.

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I am not sure if you got this or not, but I am athiest... There is no God, Son, or Holy Ghost type of thing.

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DIVAS (Deadly Viper Assassination Squad)

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I have not seen the movie, but it is not worth seeing. The critics today are completely useless. It's like everything is good and a couple of pretty good movies are bad. They lost what little credability they had. And by using the word DIVAS as an acroynym(sp) they have destroyed all "scary-ness" they have by claiming they are elite with a possy as name like that. Come on. Uh-oh, the DIVAS are coming..

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As for the blood and slaughter, well, facts are facts. Gibson gave us an accurate portrayal (according to the experts) of the death of Jesus, a view that NEEDED to be shown. To see someone suffer in that manner and to know that he did it for you SHOULD evoke an emotional response....which it was meant to do.

Why curse the Romans and the Jews? They were doing exactly what God had ordained them to do as they had no choice in the matter....Jesus was meant to die for the sins of humanity. Deal with it.

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I disagree allenb1963. It does not need to be shown, I believe you can pick up the Bible and read about it whenever you wish. There is even a Bible in my house that I could read. By emotional response you mean gag reflex(not really)? The point was to show that he was killed in a most cruel way, which he was. Humans have I think about 13 gallons of blood in them and that appeared to be just a bit more than that. Why curse the Romans and the Jews? First off I know lots of people (namely of a Christian based faith) using Jew as an insult. So if there is a God and it did ordain them, its followers should still be forgiving them. I however think that it just happened out of greed of power. Kill one, or be destroyed. In conclusion, I feel religion is just a crutch people use for one reason or another. Oh, I am half Jewish (so you can bash now).

-Cheers-

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I believe you can pick up the Bible and read about it whenever you wish.

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I've read it many times and it never hit me like the movie. Whether you realize it or not, this movie was not made for anyone but Christians and originally wasn't even going to have *subtitles*!! It was made to wake Christians up. We take sin too lightly and Gibson was reminding us of the price Jesus paid for it. It doesn't matter if you believe that, but that's why the movie was created *and* that's why it is so brutal.

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Humans have I think about 13 gallons of blood in them and that appeared to be just a bit more than that.

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I dunno....the wounds from the beatings seemed to clot really fast and I'm told that's what they would've done in reality.

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I however think that it just happened out of greed of power. Kill one, or be destroyed.

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That was supposed to have been made obvious in the movie.... The Sanhedrin (Jewish big guys) lost its following to Jesus and all of a sudden they have lost some of their power and felt threatened....so they had him killed. That was *their* motivation for killing him, but it's not the real reason for why he died. It does however explain why he was killed in such a brutal way. He was meant to serve as an example (they didn't want anybody else taking their power from them).

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I feel religion is just a crutch people use for one reason or another.

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Hah! Hell of a crutch when you're persecuted all the time for what you believe. By attacking Christian beliefs, you've disproven your own point. How can it be a crutch when we're attacked all the time for what we believe?

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I am not sure if you got this or not, but I am athiest... There is no God, Son, or Holy Ghost type of thing.

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I got that right away, I did a poor job of explaining that even if you dismiss the Claims of Jesus Christ as the son of god and the Jewish Messiah, he spoke words of great wisdom as a human being and he took a brutal beating and then death for what he believed in. He could have got out of it... but he stood for his own belief and taught great things for his time. That was what I was getting at. :)

Personally, I feel its totally wrong to make a entertainment movie about Jesus.

He was not here for our enterainment....

Silver bullet, you described it well...gag reflex, cuz that's exactly how i felt . There were times I couldn't even stand to look at the screen ...

Agent_Steal , i went and read that link and it didn't shine a light on me. If jesus had to go through all that torture to save you and me from our sins, i regret to inform you that I'm still sinning...and so are you and everyone else we pretty much know. The world is still as rot as it was back then, just read the news. It's disgusting.

Many others have undergone torture throughout the history of humanity. Some of them we found pretty reasons for, other went unjustified. Just look at the millions of jews that died at the hands of the nazis, the thousands of POW, victims of murderers and mafia jobs...did they die to save us as well?

Jesus taught us that the way religion was being dictated upon us was wrong . He taught mankind that in order to get closer to God, you had to find it in your heart to live a good simple life loving one another. Other prophets have taught us the same. What we do with those teachings is still entirely up to us, in our everyday lives and our will to make choices.
In my opinion, Jesus was killed because he was looked at as a political threat to the ruling governors of the "state". Not because his suffering was going to buy our free ticket to paradise. But because a few men in power felt he was creating a political revolution. Was Socrates killed to save us as well?

I mean no disrespect to those who believe, but like I said, it's just my opinion.

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he spoke words of great wisdom as a human being and he took a brutal beating and then death for what he believed in. He could have got out of it... but he stood for his own belief and taught great things for his time. That was what I was getting at.

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Fair enough. That is a valid point, and I believe you are correct.

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Hah! Hell of a crutch when you're persecuted all the time for what you believe. By attacking Christian beliefs, you've disproven your own point. How can it be a crutch when we're attacked all the time for what we believe?

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Living your life by a thousand plus year old book is a hindrance(sp). While most people commonly accept laws like thou shalt not kill and all that, it gets in the way. I am more of a Machiavelian(sp) type of person. Where as people with morals and all that let values get in the way. I do have values, but very few that I believe in very strongly. If someone is pissing you off (say me), why shouldn't you kill them? I have no qualms about it, however I suppose you might because of your beliefs... That was really unclear and confusing :D

-Cheers-

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Originally posted here by RoadClosed
I got that right away, I did a poor job of explaining that even if you dismiss the Claims of Jesus Christ as the son of god and the Jewish Messiah, he spoke words of great wisdom as a human being and he took a brutal beating and then death for what he believed in. He could have got out of it... but he stood for his own belief and taught great things for his time. That was what I was getting at. :)

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Carefull there road closed, while there is some good evidence that he existed there is also good evidence that he was just a composit charicter based off of the mesianic stories of the zorastorains, hindues, and hebrews.


As for hte move, looking forward to it, my church did a bible study on the passion gosspials that is ends wit ha privet viewing of the movie, seeing the movie after spending the last month and a half discuessing the verious gossipals it is based on ought to be a interesting ewxperience.

OK Bballad, like any ancient culture there could be doubt on existence, but references of the time period often mention the existance. The holocust didn't happen either ya know and that's only been a few decades worth of history.

RoadClosed umm just wondering are you just being sarcastic or do you truly believe that the holocaust did not happen ? and If so how did you come to that conclusion ?

Agent, he still has the Star of David from the Jewish banking camps tatooed on his ass. Didn't you know we Jews caused the holocaust.

-Cheers-

My guess is RoadClosed was beeing toung and cheek. It still comes back to a lack of roma recordes, they kept records of all of their convicts no such records exist for jesus nor dose he exist on the cencus. Now there are many reasons that could be, its not uncommon for the roman records on the frontier t obe incompleate, lost, or distroyed, but it dose leave that bit of doubt.

First - I apologize for my sarcasm

Second - I have never even entertained the idea that the holocaust was anything other than what it was. I have personally been to Auschwitz and Dachau (Dacow) and a host of other historical sites related to World War 2 - for my own personal reflection. In fact those experiences have left their mark on my attitude toward humanity. For instance, I am of an opinion. Those who collectively and ignorantly refer to democratically elected officials as "Nazis" and go so far as to paint pictures of them dressed in SS uniforms; if they actually understood the basis behind their allegations and walked among the grass and trees of Germany and the surrounding country side loaded with remnants of death camps and processing centers, they would shut the hell up.