Time as what?

I was bored, as usual, so I got to think about time as a dimension. Did time always exist or did we (man) create it as a form of measurement and ultimately a way to stop/prevent anarchy? I understand that something still exists even though someone does not know about it, however you can not measure any other dimension. How do you measure the first, second, or third dimension? That just doesn't make sense. I prepose that man invented time for the afformentioned reasons. The reason being that it has no effect on this plane of existance (physical). Some would argue that without time nothing would happen, but would it? Maybe there is no time and things decay, but are immeasurable so man is like, "Hey lets make a way to track this." Time has just been invented. I think that a lot of math and physics, while it worked, was forced to work by inventing other things leading ultimately to Quantum physics which can not really be proved either way, so scientists assume it is true because it makes everything work.

-Cheers-

*hurts himself trying to comprehend time*

uuhm whe may have created the idea of time, and whe may have created the term. But
you cannot go around the fact that what I did (insert time measurement here) ago happend
in the past. I can not do that ever again in exactly the same way with every molecule in the positsion as it was then. I could repeat the action and get a setting pretty close to the first time
I did it but it will never be the exact same thing because whe have moved forward in time and nothing is as it was back then.

Yes I suck at this stuff. I have a friend in newzealand and he alway's beats me
at stuff like this.

According to quantum physics there is a universe for every single possibility which means there is an infinite number of universes with every single possiblity including the one you just stated.

-Cheers-

You know what got me really confused? A few weeks ago they released some photos of the "deep universe" taken by hubble. Well, what I didn't understand about that is how they were saying these were the best pictures we have of our old galaxi. I was reading things such as "this was the deepest we ever went in our universe" or "we were able to travel millions of years back". OK, what the hell?

Time exists because everything evolves and people can remember things. So that there's an idea of past, present and future.

amnesiac, yes, if you look outside to a star, that star isn't actually there anymore, it has already moved to another place. So if you look at a star that is 1 lightyear away you are seeing that star as it was one year ago.
That's how they look into the past of the universe, light that has been travelling since the big-bang (supposing this theory is correct) is captured then (the photo)

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however you can not measure any other dimension. How do you measure the first, second, or third dimension? That just doesn't make sense.

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PM8228 being as the first 3 dimensions are length, width and height yes you can measure them - they are the common dimensions that partly make up our physical universe. However things like the units of measurement e.g. metres, inches cubits etc are purely man made derivations so that we can say that a plank of wood is X by Y by Z inches. Similarly the measurements of time are man made derivations so that we can say an event lasts for 24 seconds or whatever. The most 'accurate' time in common use at the moment is based on atomic time which is based on counting cycles of an electrical signal resonating with an atomic transition state i.e. an electron flipping between energy shells. The definition of atomic time from here is

The second is the duration of 9,192, 631, 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.

The thing to remember is that although units of time are man made that does not mean that the phenomenon they measure is not real - like Moonwolf says

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you cannot go around the fact that what I did (insert time measurement here) ago happend in the past. I can not do that ever again in exactly the same way with every molecule in the positsion as it was then

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(actually as a side note that would bring about an interesting philosophical question - suppose you did go back in time in order to change a future event in your own personal history and all of the molecules were in exactly the same place - would you end up doing the same thing as you previously did? The answer is probably not since the you that went back is not the same you that existed in the original time frame)

time itself is a dimension like the other 3 (l, w, h). We have the capability to percieve 3 dimensions fairly readily but apparently we can't percieve the fourth i.e. time dimension very well. You don't need a scientist to tell you that what I am typing on i.e. a keyboard has some physical prescence (because of its physical dimensions) and that in all probability it will still exist tomorrow (drawing on past experience). Hence my memory and experience lets me know there is a before and after the present 'now' i.e. time and there is something I can touch.

PM8228, out of curiosity why do you say

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was forced to work by inventing other things leading ultimately to Quantum physics which can not really be proved either way, so scientists assume it is true because it makes everything work.

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as someone with a reasonably advanced scientific background I could say that certain things about quantum physics have been proved true - but I'm not going to. The reason I'm not going to is because I have seen enough inaccuracies in scientific papers and incomplete or incorrect conclusions drawn from somewhat 'dodgy' data to be slightly cynical about science. Don't take that as me saying I will believe any 'new age' or religious theory because I don't. I will say that neither religion or science (as it is currently practiced) will lead to 'truth' at best its a case of the half blind leading the blind.

Z

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blind leading the blind.

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All I know is from watching Discovery channel and History channel ^_^. As for measuring the 3 dimensions, I guess you're right ^_^. As for the rest, I'll take your word because I have to go eat and I would have no idea anyway.

-Cheers-

Time can be taken as one of the characteristics of our universe. If there was no time our universe would be static and not dynamic. In theory time can be influenced by another property of our universe, gravity. I am sure that there is an experiment where you take two atomic clocks you leave one on the ground and you take one up in a plane or space ship for a certain amount of “time”. When you bring them back together again there should be a difference in the time that has passed for the two clocks.
If anyone wants to loan me two atomic clocks and a space shuttle I will be more than happy to try out this experiment :)

So for the late input - Personal take.... Time is both a measurement and a dimension from a practical point. When you measure time you are measuring its effect on our reality. The passage of time probably always had meaning on this planet. It was invented by no one; perhaps evolution is a byproduct of the ability to determine the right time to eat, or the right time to mate. The organisms that could predict time survived. Time was important long before mankind was created. In chaos theory, some touched upon; time takes new meaning as to why it exists. Mankind invented ways to communicate time.

As stated, it is a dimension in the very nature that it can be measured, but not in the sense that others often perceive, such as an alternate universe of some unknown unreachable place. I think that is the confusion about measuring dimensions, because if one existed outside of our ability to perceive it, we couldn't measure it. We don't know it exists yet or have some fundamental understanding that is “could” be there.

As for truth in science, quantum mechanics etc. are theories. Even the great minds of planet earth recognize the possibility of inaccuracies in theories, perhaps some day we will understand the LAWS of quantum existence. Even 100 year old explanations into the super small are still considered theoretical. To my knowledge there are very little Atomic Laws defined, if at all.

The Atomic Clock analogy is an excellent example of the fascination and mystery of time. It’s not constant when speaking of relativity. It is “relative” to the observer based on his position in the cosmos. In Maracu’s example time passes slow in reference to Earth but in reference to each person, time passage is the same. In reality time will go slower on the ship but ONLY at speeds relative to light. And to that person, his knowledge of a warp in time is not known, except in relation to his outside world. With no outside contact, time would be measured according to his perspective. In these respects time is related to light and the speed at which it travels.

amnesiac: When you look back into the heart of the universe you are looking at the way things where millinos of years ago...it takes a long time for light to get out here.

There is a start to time, and with out time there is no matter, nor movement, nor energy...loook in to hawkins work. There is also an end to time...but we may be standing at the begining or end of time right now and would never know.

bballad
Hawkins is also where i took my example from. In all the books I have read on the subject his one aimed at the general public is about the clearest.
For anyone who hasn't read it yet it is called "A brief history of time by Stephan Hawkins".

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one aimed at the general public

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Yeah you need an advance mathematic degree; about 10 years more knowledge than I can comprehend, just to follow along his original essays.

MURACU: hes currently the worlds best mind, I would recomend "the universe in a nut shell" and the "future of space time" to anyone that is at all interested in how our universe works.

Speaking of Hawking, the lighter side of his life...

http://www.hawking.org.uk/balloon.html

ok, time doesn't exist...think about it (but don't hurt yourself... :D ). is time the same? sometimes an hour is like an eternity and other times it just flies by and you think, its already 0400??? i've been online for how long???? digresses....but i really think it is a man-made entity. but we have agreed on it for so long we have made it real.....this of course leads into the nature of reality and existance and the universe.....thinks and gets migraine.....i'm not sure about that...but i'm into the idea that physical objects have more space in them than solid material...ok so now, do we perceive things as they are? or how we think they are? if enough ppl believe something it becomes the truth.....and now the internet. its really interesting...i've been posting alot on other sites and you talk to ppl all over the world, one of our threads is "what time is it there?" so for some of us, its 2000, and for others its 0444, or 1800 (hey i know military time !!), so now what time is it really????

echocontrol - not wishing to be rude but I suggest you go to page one and read my first post. Just to make things clearer for you;

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the measurements of time are man made derivations so that we can say an event lasts for 24 seconds or whatever

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The thing to remember is that although units of time are man made that does not mean that the phenomenon they measure is not real

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so just because its a different time somewhere else doesn't mean anything - the measurement of time is man made I agree, it is a definition which we as a society have agreed on. However time itself is more than a metaphysical concept... in the same way that light is more than a metaphysical concept (briefly light = good, dark = evil, I need to explain this further but I don't have time at the moment) and both have a physical reality.

As for perception I can tell you now that no we do not consciously perceive things as they really are. The aparatus we have for percieving reality e.g. eyes, ears, tongue etc are actually incredibly sensitive and they do pick up far more than most people are aware of - the brain filters out a lot of extraneous 'noise' from our consciousness. It's a protective mechanism - imagine if you will listening to a radio where all of the stations are playing at the same time - its difficult if not impossible to make any sense out of the individual broadcasts. Now in some ways it is possible to 'tune in' to what you percieve although you can't do this to a great extent without a lot of training and more than a few physical alterations.

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if enough ppl believe something it becomes the truth

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thats not true - truth is still truth whether you believe it or not - for example once people believed the truth that the plague was caused by 'bad odours', it doesn't alter the truth that the plague is caused by a bacterium and that it was spread by rat fleas. The only 'truths' that are mutable are those that depend upon ethics and morality.

I daresay some folks will disagree with this view but hey thats what cosmos is for

Z

ok ok ok, zim i get it, read post...but still. ok will agree that in this physical plane (here earth), maybe real is real to some extent. or what we can perceive is real....and like you've said, you can percieve alernate spaces/reality with training and umm...some help. but even needing the "help" limits you to just input from this plane of reality (as the help is a part of this reality plane)....i send you back to the days when ram dass and all...went to india and gave the guru the 7 or so doses of windowpane acid (that they had all done and it blew them away like 1/4 of one hit)...and the guru wasn't affected at all. because that effect was on this plane and he had gone beyond it and thus was not affected by it. (or that's how i interpret it). i also am not getting into a new age/religious discussion or debate. just thinking about things. again changes her mind, yep real is real while your are here, as my reality is bad and would love to just 'change it'. and i'm sure ram would love to be able to change things for him seeing that i heard he's had 1 (or more) strokes lately. so now, back to time...
someone states (can't get that far back to check it out) that you can't argue that what i did 5 minutes ago is in the past and not happening now. well that's true but its only in the man mad measurement of the continium we live in. actually it all happens in the present....think about it....when the future comes, its the present. one reason why i say pooh to all the dooms day stuff...you know how bad things are gonna be in 20 years, etc, etc, it'll be now and yeah it'll change, but ppl will be ppl and we'll deal with it.
and zonewalker/zim: how do you feel that ethical/moral truths are more mutable than physical ones? ps: are you a JTHM fan also?????
sorry i didn't read all the posts, i was just new to site...when i first posted....

from maracu's sig.

I am not paronoid .... I know everyone is out to get me


nods in agreement:
my angle: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!!!! :D

I have the all ecompassing answer to time... you see:

Its astounding,

"Time is Fleeting"

Madness takes it's toll - But listen closely

I've got to keep control.... I remember

DOING THE TIME WARP

Drinking those moments when, the blackness would hit me

Let's do the time warp again.

me to: doing the time warp...warps around room..throwing rice...that movie is still playing in nyc you know for now like 30+ consecutive years!!!!
so ummm...now is that 30yrs a time years, or like just 30places in the time continium known as now????

30 years in the linear passage of time as measured in the distance a light beam takes to fly by the planet.

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Originally posted here by RoadClosed
30 years in the linear passage of time as measured in the distance a light beam takes to fly by the planet.

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thanks for clearing that up for me.....i'll sleep easier tonight :o tired from doing the time warp!
..."lets do the time warp again".....

Maybe I can try to contribute again.

You see sometimes time seems the go fast and sometimes time seems to go slow.
Also it seems time goes faster as you grow older. How is this possible?

For the first problem although you figured both out yourself probebly. Time fly's when you are having fun. Meaning if you don't think about time time seems to go faster(most of the time) while if you spend every minute looking at your watch time seems to act like a tired slug.
Your brain has it's own way's of measuring time but its not concious when you are occupied with something you have no frame to put your actions in so it seems time went really fast.
But when you ceep looking at your watch you are creating a frame in wich you can see exactly how time is moving, compared to not knowing the time this seems to go a lot slower.
Ad to that that your brain has different way of percepting stuff( let say different modes) depending on the mode time is also percepted differently.

The problem with time seeming to go faster as you gro older is related to memory and reference to it. When you are only a year old a year is the same size as your entire life. For you who has no other reference this seems like a huge period. When you are 10 this is only a thenth of your life now a year seems a lot smaller. Fast forwarding to 100(if you grow that old) a year is such a small
part of you time frame that it seems to go quite fast.

If you think of time as a wheel rolling along the sand, is it the wheel that is time or the track it leaves

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Originally posted here by MoonWolf
Maybe I can try to contribute again.

You see sometimes time seems the go fast and sometimes time seems to go slow.
Also it seems time goes faster as you grow older. How is this possible?

For the first problem although you figured both out yourself probebly. Time fly's when you are having fun. Meaning if you don't think about time time seems to go faster(most of the time) while if you spend every minute looking at your watch time seems to act like a tired slug.
Your brain has it's own way's of measuring time but its not concious when you are occupied with something you have no frame to put your actions in so it seems time went really fast.
But when you ceep looking at your watch you are creating a frame in wich you can see exactly how time is moving, compared to not knowing the time this seems to go a lot slower.
Ad to that that your brain has different way of percepting stuff( let say different modes) depending on the mode time is also percepted differently.

The problem with time seeming to go faster as you gro older is related to memory and reference to it. When you are only a year old a year is the same size as your entire life. For you who has no other reference this seems like a huge period. When you are 10 this is only a thenth of your life now a year seems a lot smaller. Fast forwarding to 100(if you grow that old) a year is such a small
part of you time frame that it seems to go quite fast.

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but that still doesn't really address the question of the reality of time. our brains do perceive time in different ways (ie, slow, fast...), but does that mean: time is time and its our brains that see it different. or that since time is man made then of course it is going to fluxuate as our perception of it does.

and when you look "back at something 'in your past'm, think about it". now when you 'remember things, do you remember them as happening to someone else, from a different time period, or did it happen to you? it happened in the present when it happened, its still in the present, cause you are still you...so now that would explain why something that happened to you "30" years ago - something horrible, a devastating injury, or you were mistreated in someway...those things stay with you like they just happened....so if this time thing was real then it seems that it wouldn't stay in our minds like it was from the past, and not be with us, giving us as much or more pain and distress than it did when it happened....

hey echocontrol.

I'm not shure if you are confusing time and memory's or if I am reading your post all wrong
maybe you could restate the question ?

Thanks.

-moonwolf