Bring our boys and girls home, the US troop situation

I thought this might make for an interesting conversation, or a side thought. I hear it on the news almost every day, I hear it on the web, even in conversations with those that aren't in the military and this always seems to come up.

First off I cannot vouch for any military other than the US military, as their situations may be very different. However the US military is an all volunteer military. No one forces you to join, and you are even asked if you are being forced to join on one of the initial interviews. There are five branches of the military you can join. And on top of that there is a job selection process to where you get the option of choosing your job, depending on the needs of the service, and also your score on their placement test (asvab). If someone signs up to be infantry in the Army, they are well aware of what they are getting into when they sign up, keeping in mind that they weren't forced, and they have some control over the job they pick.

On top of that, the fact is that a large majority of our forces in Iraq have volunteered to go overseas. Where I serve, EVERYONE that has went to Iraq has volunteered to do so. People want to help to do their part over there. Some of the larger forces that are in Iraq were told they were going to deploy, but still they volunteered for the job, and were aware of the fact of what they were doing.

Another fact of this is that the media, and people in general tend to think that the government is sending "boys and girls" to their deaths, and thats simply not the case. Men and women are over there. There is a huge rank structure which includes older men and women just as well as the younger new recruits, who at the very least should be considered men and women.

Its a very sad event when someone over there dies serving their country, but the simple fact is if they didn't believe in what they were doing they wouldn't be over there in the first place. So pretty please, with sugar on top, when you hear someone say "bring our boys and girls home" think about the volunteer situation.

I thought this might make for an interesting conversation, or a side thought. I hear it on the news almost every day, I hear it on the web, even in conversations with those that aren't in the military and this always seems to come up.

First off I cannot vouch for any military other than the US military, as their situations may be very different. However the US military is an all volunteer military. No one forces you to join, and you are even asked if you are being forced to join on one of the initial interviews. There are five branches of the military you can join. And on top of that there is a job selection process to where you get the option of choosing your job, depending on the needs of the service, and also your score on their placement test (asvab). If someone signs up to be infantry in the Army, they are well aware of what they are getting into when they sign up, keeping in mind that they weren't forced, and they have some control over the job they pick.

On top of that, the fact is that a large majority of our forces in Iraq have volunteered to go overseas. Where I serve, EVERYONE that has went to Iraq has volunteered to do so. People want to help to do their part over there. Some of the larger forces that are in Iraq were told they were going to deploy, but still they volunteered for the job, and were aware of the fact of what they were doing.

Another fact of this is that the media, and people in general tend to think that the government is sending "boys and girls" to their deaths, and thats simply not the case. Men and women are over there. There is a huge rank structure which includes older men and women just as well as the younger new recruits, who at the very least should be considered men and women.

Its a very sad event when someone over there dies serving their country, but the simple fact is if they didn't believe in what they were doing they wouldn't be over there in the first place. So pretty please, with sugar on top, when you hear someone say "bring our boys and girls home" think about the volunteer situation.

Thad,

Thank you for your awareness. As unfortunate as it is, the cost of our freedom has always been very expensive. We have always paid dearly with the loss of our loved ones and of course with our resources as well. The world we live in is actually very dangerous. We probably wouldn't know that here in the U. S. Because, other than some gang related activities and occasionally felons running around, we were fairly safe. It was a pretty non-violent place to live, for at least my 51 years.

A problem we face now and in the future, is that, something has seriously changed. The scrimmages between the terrorists and their targets was generally held overseas and the affects were not felt very often in the U. S. On that September 11, the field of play now included our country as well. The terrorists now know that they can cross the oceans and strike here in the heart of the U. S. Make no mistake about it. It's not over and we have prevented countless such activities after 9-11.

Unfortunately we can't just pullout. Iraq's neighboring countries would just love that to happen. After all, Iran has wanted that real estate forever. Until we can stabilize Iraq and have them standing on their own, we owe it to the innocent folks over there to do just that. When I say we, I mean everyone, not just the few.

It's not for the oil either as some would like to claim. Did we take Kuwait's oil from them the last time? Have we ever conquered for the natural resources of another country? Nope! We buy it. I will admit we have a serious interest in their oil, and we use a whole bunch of it. However we don't just take and we never have. We pay our way. So what is it?

We can't just leave them alone and mind our own business. They made it our business and concern because those cells were growing out of control and of course, when they attacked us. Additionally we made some blunders over there as well. But regardless, that area is a terrorist breeding ground and they will come find us. Good ole Iraq and many of the other countries over there provide not only support for those critters but they create, house, and train them as well. So what are we to do, stand idly by and wait for them to strike again?

Just some ramblings from an ole grump…..

Thad,

Thank you for your awareness. As unfortunate as it is, the cost of our freedom has always been very expensive. We have always paid dearly with the loss of our loved ones and of course with our resources as well. The world we live in is actually very dangerous. We probably wouldn't know that here in the U. S. Because, other than some gang related activities and occasionally felons running around, we were fairly safe. It was a pretty non-violent place to live, for at least my 51 years.

A problem we face now and in the future, is that, something has seriously changed. The scrimmages between the terrorists and their targets was generally held overseas and the affects were not felt very often in the U. S. On that September 11, the field of play now included our country as well. The terrorists now know that they can cross the oceans and strike here in the heart of the U. S. Make no mistake about it. It's not over and we have prevented countless such activities after 9-11.

Unfortunately we can't just pullout. Iraq's neighboring countries would just love that to happen. After all, Iran has wanted that real estate forever. Until we can stabilize Iraq and have them standing on their own, we owe it to the innocent folks over there to do just that. When I say we, I mean everyone, not just the few.

It's not for the oil either as some would like to claim. Did we take Kuwait's oil from them the last time? Have we ever conquered for the natural resources of another country? Nope! We buy it. I will admit we have a serious interest in their oil, and we use a whole bunch of it. However we don't just take and we never have. We pay our way. So what is it?

We can't just leave them alone and mind our own business. They made it our business and concern because those cells were growing out of control and of course, when they attacked us. Additionally we made some blunders over there as well. But regardless, that area is a terrorist breeding ground and they will come find us. Good ole Iraq and many of the other countries over there provide not only support for those critters but they create, house, and train them as well. So what are we to do, stand idly by and wait for them to strike again?

Just some ramblings from an ole grump…..

Hi Guys,

Just a foreigner's view.................when we went to the Falklands back in '82, it was "bad luck" for the guys who did not get the trip............if a soldier does not like what he is doing, then I guess he is in the wrong job?

I can understand the problems with Vietnam, but that was a long time ago? this is rather different?

God bless them all! (and we are official players this time)

Hi Guys,

Just a foreigner's view.................when we went to the Falklands back in '82, it was "bad luck" for the guys who did not get the trip............if a soldier does not like what he is doing, then I guess he is in the wrong job?

I can understand the problems with Vietnam, but that was a long time ago? this is rather different?

God bless them all! (and we are official players this time)

thadbme,

I posted those exact words in another thread you may have read here. I have one question for you considering your views on our "Boys and Girls". Have you ever been in any of our armed forces? I have, I was also duped into believing that everything the recruiter told me was the gospel truth. I joined the Air Force under their (now defunked) guaranteed enlistment program that allowed me to sign a contract that guaranteed that I was going to recieve particular training to enter into a particular career. 30 days later I was sent home with an honorable discharge because they couldn't (or wouldn't) hold up their end of the contract. Not only did that ruin a career I had dreamed of as a child and worked very hard to achieve, but it also showed me how "honest" and "truthful" our military leaders are. I would have "volunteered" too to fly into battle then. But now?? I am not so sure. I just wonder how many of our troops we have stationed over there now wish they never went, and how many of them are cursing their recruiters for lying to them and filling their heads with false hopes. I am still waiting to see if we ever find any of the dreaded WOMD...

As for pulling out of there now? It is way too late for that, we have already destroyed any hope of that. As for oil? Do the math... I am convinced this is a war for oil and capitolism. Our "enemy" sees us as a threat to their entire existance and to their religion. This war will not end soon. The dice have been rolled by both sides, and neither side is going to give up.

thadbme,

I posted those exact words in another thread you may have read here. I have one question for you considering your views on our "Boys and Girls". Have you ever been in any of our armed forces? I have, I was also duped into believing that everything the recruiter told me was the gospel truth. I joined the Air Force under their (now defunked) guaranteed enlistment program that allowed me to sign a contract that guaranteed that I was going to recieve particular training to enter into a particular career. 30 days later I was sent home with an honorable discharge because they couldn't (or wouldn't) hold up their end of the contract. Not only did that ruin a career I had dreamed of as a child and worked very hard to achieve, but it also showed me how "honest" and "truthful" our military leaders are. I would have "volunteered" too to fly into battle then. But now?? I am not so sure. I just wonder how many of our troops we have stationed over there now wish they never went, and how many of them are cursing their recruiters for lying to them and filling their heads with false hopes. I am still waiting to see if we ever find any of the dreaded WOMD...

As for pulling out of there now? It is way too late for that, we have already destroyed any hope of that. As for oil? Do the math... I am convinced this is a war for oil and capitolism. Our "enemy" sees us as a threat to their entire existance and to their religion. This war will not end soon. The dice have been rolled by both sides, and neither side is going to give up.

You can read letters from Soldiers who have served during the "War on Terror" here... Right from the horses mouth. They offer quite a differing opinion...

You can read letters from Soldiers who have served during the "War on Terror" here... Right from the horses mouth. They offer quite a differing opinion...

aeallison, this post wasn't against you just to make it clear, but when I read your post it made me think. I had heard this many other times.

To answer your question yes I have served in our armed forces. I'm serving right now in the Air Force with the guaranteed contract that you speak of. I'm sorry if you thought I was posting in a negative manner towards you as that was not my intent.

I have spoke with people that have served in Iraq, although no army infantry, or marines who have been much closer to the combat that is going on right now. Its a bad situation I agree for everyone involved. But we simply cannot back out now, because it would be leaving the job undone and the people to fend for themselves. I agree with Relyt, and unstable Iraq would lead to a much more unstable middle east.

While there may be some truth to the politics of oil and capitalism, I honestly belive that our administration thought that there was a strong enough threat from Iraq to do what has been done, and lest not forget Afghanistan. I will support the administration irregardless as its what I swore an oath to do.

Nihil,

The Vietnam situation was widely different, and that alone could be a never ending post. But the main thing that sticks out to me is the all volunteer military. And I agree with you 100%, God bless them all. I hope that some day I can do my part to help as well. And I have much respect for the UK for sticking with us through thick and thin, and there are others helping as well. God bless all of them indeed.

aeallison, this post wasn't against you just to make it clear, but when I read your post it made me think. I had heard this many other times.

To answer your question yes I have served in our armed forces. I'm serving right now in the Air Force with the guaranteed contract that you speak of. I'm sorry if you thought I was posting in a negative manner towards you as that was not my intent.

I have spoke with people that have served in Iraq, although no army infantry, or marines who have been much closer to the combat that is going on right now. Its a bad situation I agree for everyone involved. But we simply cannot back out now, because it would be leaving the job undone and the people to fend for themselves. I agree with Relyt, and unstable Iraq would lead to a much more unstable middle east.

While there may be some truth to the politics of oil and capitalism, I honestly belive that our administration thought that there was a strong enough threat from Iraq to do what has been done, and lest not forget Afghanistan. I will support the administration irregardless as its what I swore an oath to do.

Nihil,

The Vietnam situation was widely different, and that alone could be a never ending post. But the main thing that sticks out to me is the all volunteer military. And I agree with you 100%, God bless them all. I hope that some day I can do my part to help as well. And I have much respect for the UK for sticking with us through thick and thin, and there are others helping as well. God bless all of them indeed.

Thadbme, I didn't take this thread as a personal attack, nor was I offended by it. I do have a tendancy to to use catch phrases. To me, our troops are just kids. Highly skilled and trained, but kids none the less. I have no problems at all with putting my life or the lives of my family in their hands. I have a great respect for everyone in our armed forces. I guess I shouldn't have judged all of the millitary on the performance of a handful of jerks that I had to deal with. But as a father of two children (ages 22 and 20) I am familliar with the basic attitudes of the troops that are now engaging in battle overseas. Most of them joined to "see the world" or "to be all that they can be". An easy out for a child who is tired of the day to day drudgery that is life in our United States. As a service man yourself you should be most familliar with the propaganda and social engineering tactics that are in use today. How hard is it, really; to convince a young man or woman, aged between 18 and 27, that they are doing the right thing, and that they truly love doing it? In the short time I was in the service, I can still clearly remember how they told us what to write home to our parents, and why we should write our letters just that way. They didn't want our parents getting any wrong ideas of how we were being trained or treated. I could go on.

Conf1rm3d_K1ll, don't take me wrong on this, but I think my above statement covers your post too. I just can't believe everything I read, especially with my experiences in this matter.

Thadbme, I didn't take this thread as a personal attack, nor was I offended by it. I do have a tendancy to to use catch phrases. To me, our troops are just kids. Highly skilled and trained, but kids none the less. I have no problems at all with putting my life or the lives of my family in their hands. I have a great respect for everyone in our armed forces. I guess I shouldn't have judged all of the millitary on the performance of a handful of jerks that I had to deal with. But as a father of two children (ages 22 and 20) I am familliar with the basic attitudes of the troops that are now engaging in battle overseas. Most of them joined to "see the world" or "to be all that they can be". An easy out for a child who is tired of the day to day drudgery that is life in our United States. As a service man yourself you should be most familliar with the propaganda and social engineering tactics that are in use today. How hard is it, really; to convince a young man or woman, aged between 18 and 27, that they are doing the right thing, and that they truly love doing it? In the short time I was in the service, I can still clearly remember how they told us what to write home to our parents, and why we should write our letters just that way. They didn't want our parents getting any wrong ideas of how we were being trained or treated. I could go on.

Conf1rm3d_K1ll, don't take me wrong on this, but I think my above statement covers your post too. I just can't believe everything I read, especially with my experiences in this matter.

They're still running ads on the radio here for the national guard. one weekend a month, two weeks a year, help with your tuition, military training, learn a new skill.....

A lot of people joined the national guard believing they would be helping in their own state in case of local disasters... that is still the way the guard is advertised.

Of course not many people would sign up if they advertised the truth... "you're going to be shipped off to a warm place..."

They're still running ads on the radio here for the national guard. one weekend a month, two weeks a year, help with your tuition, military training, learn a new skill.....

A lot of people joined the national guard believing they would be helping in their own state in case of local disasters... that is still the way the guard is advertised.

Of course not many people would sign up if they advertised the truth... "you're going to be shipped off to a warm place..."

There are advantages to the guard however. When everything is going well, such as not a war in Iraq or Afghanistan its all good. However the way our current military system is working is heavily using our guard and reserve forces to bolster the numbers. This results in your being sent to a warm place.

People join for varying reasons, and its always interesting to hear what they have to say. Alot of people join to "get away from home" because there is nothing to do. Well I hear that story from people all over the place. Also you've got the big one, education. The current recruiters story is 100% of tuition paid. And thats a true fact, but you need to understand whats behind it. Somewhere around $4600 a year is available for tuition. And there are things that you need to get out of the way, such as upgrade training before you can use the education benefits you get. Also there is the Mongomery GI Bill, which at last time I heard is around $40000, but you can only use this after you have been in the military for 2 years. And if you want to use it when you get out you must be honorably discharged. Ok that being said, I may very well be a more aware Airman (Gen Jumper has declared that airman is to be capitalised from now on, interesting story... ) than average, but I know whats going on.

I'm not sure what kind of TI you had or the squadron you were in, but when I was in we were lucky to get to write at all. Atleast for two weeks we were barred from doing so. Everything that they did had meaning, even some of the subtle things in basic were to get you prepared for things later on. But I never remember being told what to write home. Now there was the 30 second phone call to where you were only allowed to say that your ok, and here is my address, but thats again a different story.

I believe on my own accord that I've done the right thing for myself by joining the military. I've grown both physically and mentally, and I'm pretty darn self confident. At the same time I believe that our military is ultimately a good thing, and that we are doing good things. Now keeping that in mind is that the function of the military to kill is a balancing act, but I have the upmost faith in our leadership, both military and administration wise.

I'm just stating my case, I know that you never denied anything about our military, but thats my spill!

There are advantages to the guard however. When everything is going well, such as not a war in Iraq or Afghanistan its all good. However the way our current military system is working is heavily using our guard and reserve forces to bolster the numbers. This results in your being sent to a warm place.

People join for varying reasons, and its always interesting to hear what they have to say. Alot of people join to "get away from home" because there is nothing to do. Well I hear that story from people all over the place. Also you've got the big one, education. The current recruiters story is 100% of tuition paid. And thats a true fact, but you need to understand whats behind it. Somewhere around $4600 a year is available for tuition. And there are things that you need to get out of the way, such as upgrade training before you can use the education benefits you get. Also there is the Mongomery GI Bill, which at last time I heard is around $40000, but you can only use this after you have been in the military for 2 years. And if you want to use it when you get out you must be honorably discharged. Ok that being said, I may very well be a more aware Airman (Gen Jumper has declared that airman is to be capitalised from now on, interesting story... ) than average, but I know whats going on.

I'm not sure what kind of TI you had or the squadron you were in, but when I was in we were lucky to get to write at all. Atleast for two weeks we were barred from doing so. Everything that they did had meaning, even some of the subtle things in basic were to get you prepared for things later on. But I never remember being told what to write home. Now there was the 30 second phone call to where you were only allowed to say that your ok, and here is my address, but thats again a different story.

I believe on my own accord that I've done the right thing for myself by joining the military. I've grown both physically and mentally, and I'm pretty darn self confident. At the same time I believe that our military is ultimately a good thing, and that we are doing good things. Now keeping that in mind is that the function of the military to kill is a balancing act, but I have the upmost faith in our leadership, both military and administration wise.

I'm just stating my case, I know that you never denied anything about our military, but thats my spill!

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I never remember being told what to write home. Now there was the 30 second phone call to where you were only allowed to say that your ok, and here is my address, but thats again a different story.

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30 second phone call?? I don't remember that at all... hmmmm

I enlisted in 1977, when did you enlist?

Lets hear the one about the 30 second phone call. :D

I am really glad that you feel the way you do. No body told you what to write in response to my last post did they. j/k ;)

Heh heh heh......this is interesting. A kind of look back at 40 years and the differences that have occurred.

I am a bit older than most of you. I joined the service almost 40 years ago (June of 1965) and was in untill Feb. of 1973) ( 7 years 7 months and 23 days to be exact) As I was in the Air Force, I joined (volunteered) of course. But, in that day and age I had a choice.....join and get what I wanted or be drafted and be a grunt (Army or Marine -- and yes they were drafting for the marines in those days)

I spent 18 months in Viet Nam.....1 year volunteer and 6 months as a temorarily deployed personel. I was very gungho when I went into the service and was planning on making a career out of it. Viet Nam and other things changed my mind. But I will not go into that....differing times and cicumstances.

Our young people serving overseas now, are for the most part volunteers, and certainly knew they would probably be sent overseas. Except for the Guard. Alot of them joined, and did not ever expect to leave their home towns except for basic and two weeks a year. They would not have planned for this, or set up their families to be able to accomidate this hardship.....and I do feel for them (but they should have know it was always a possibility).

Do I support our troops....of course. Do I support our administration.....only when I have to, as I don't trust our administrations motivations anymore.

Do I think we should pull out of Iraq.....yes, but I also know we can't.

My answer to the problem of terrorists......Kill them all (but again I know that we can not just do that, although I am not sure why[sic])

Sorry for the long lull. Anyways for the 30 second phone call story. Some have military experience, others have not, so I'll try to paint a scenario for you.

From the moment you arrive at the airport in San Antonio and go to the military processing center you are theirs. You see a room full of people easily hundreds, all sitting indian style, silent and facing forward. Its here when you start wondering what you go into. From there its a bus ride to Lackland where the processing starts. Lots of yelling, running with your bags off of the bus, stuff like that. You've been up nearly 30 hours straight at this point, and your getting yelled at by people you've met, and doing things wrong that you didn't know about. Lots and LOTS of yelling. This establishes the initial shock. Around the third day you have to call home and let your family / contact know that you have arrived and that you are ok. This is the 30 second phone call. Now I've heard stories about this from people I knew, but this didn't PERSONALLY happen to me.

They hand you a piece of paper that says EXACTLY what you were allowed to say. Something along the lines of "I have arrived and I am ok, here is my address, long military address to follow" ... All the time angry MTI'S (military training instructors) standing over your shoulder. People crying, being yelled at for crying. Its in this first week where they try to make you think "what did I get into?" ....

But all this is to mentally break you down so they can rebuilt you into an Airman. And its effective at that. If ya'll want some more insight, head on over to this site, http://www.piratecowboy.com/memoirs.htm . Thats my personal website (not security related mind you) And I wrote that on my bus ride out of basic training so I could remember what it was like later. Its a VERY long read, but if your interested whats its like now vs. then for some of you older folks, go ahead! Also anyone else thats just curious!

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They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street,
where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected,
neglected and selected. I went down to get my physical examination one
day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so
I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning.

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http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml

Hay guy's,

War is just politics by another means........(Von Clausvics)

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You can read letters from Soldiers who have served during the "War on Terror" here... Right from the horses mouth. They offer quite a differing opinion...

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I hear them talk about it every day. You can't go to Taco Bell or a pub around here and not hear their stories. I respect the guy as a filmaker but Moore singled out a few mama's boys to exploit for his viewpoint. Just this morning getting coffee two young guys were talking about how their trailer, whatever that was serving, was mortered after being there just two weeks. The common tour of duty around here is over a year. They never bashed the president or who they are or why they are there. Sure they are glad to be sipping some of the coffee fruit of capitolism as opposed to being back in the desert but I hear this stuff all the time living so close to a large base.

The only similarity to this "War on Terror" and Vietnam is the media and the left side of the political coin and their driven desire to LOSE at all cost. There is no other exuse for the common and constant barrage of negative and destructive commentary. They want us to believe they have the troops best interest at heart while feeding images and rhetoric of hatred across the globe placing them in more danger, making them feel used. The funny thing is they hate the military, but get up like puppets delivering sermon on the hill to the weak and poor who will listen to anything that promises false hope. They along with Mr. More exploit "boys and girls" to a level I have never seen before in my life.

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The only similarity to this "War on Terror" and Vietnam is the media and the left side of the political coin and their driven desire to LOSE at all cost.

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They don't desire you to lose, they desire you to not be there at all, to end the occupation of Iraq. The similarities being drawn are how the power of images of dead soldiers and the actaul face of war can shift public opinion, the advent of the digital camera means the military can no longer hide the realities of war, the torture, the death etc.

How can you lose when you already won? You are no longer fighting Saddam, that's long ago? The Iraqi people are mortoring US soldiers because they no longer want them there, you did them a favour, no go.

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There is no other exuse for the common and constant barrage of negative and destructive commentary.

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So they should lie to the public, not show the torture, pretend the Iraqi's many of them innocent are having a great time in US prisons? Some journalists have a conciensce, some have agenda but they all have a job, to report what is going on, what is going on in Iraq is that US soldies and innocent Iraws are dying.

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They want us to believe they have the troops best interest at heart while feeding images and rhetoric of hatred across the globe placing them in more danger, making them feel used.

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WMD's is rhetoric, this works both ways, and they are being used. The reason the US is there is that they have to get out of Saudi Arabia and need a new oil supply, hence Iraq. Soldiers are nothing more than pawns.

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The funny thing is they hate the military, but get up like puppets delivering sermon on the hill to the weak and poor who will listen to anything that promises false hope. They along with Mr. More exploit "boys and girls" to a level I have never seen before in my life.

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Are you telling me Bush has everybodys interests and freedom at heart, he never tells lies?

Bullshit.

List of countries in which the US has in the past been active in Installing puppet leaders, squashing of a coup , assasination of a leader, helping a coup against a leader, spreading of propaganda and trade blockades


WORLD WAR II 1941-45
Fought Axis forces for three years; first nuclear war, against Japan.

GREECE 1947-49
Supports and directs extreme right in civil war.

PHILIPPINES 1948-54
CIA directs war against leftist Huk Rebellion.

PUERTO RICO 1950
Nationalist insurrection challenges American occupation; US command operation puts down rebellion.

KOREAN WAR 1950-53
Joins South Korea and other allies to fight China and North Korea.

IRAN 1953
CIA directs overthrow of elected left-leaning government, installs Shah.

GUATEMALA 1954
CIA directs exile invasion and overthrow of leftist government; military junta installed.

LEBANON 1958
US occupation ends under UN Observer Group.

VIETNAM WAR 1960-75
Fought South Vietnam rebels and North Vietnam forces; 1-2 million killed.

CUBA 1961
CIA-directed "Bay of Pigs" invasion.

LAOS 1962
Green Berets active in training, military buildup, support of rightist forces during guerrilla war.

PANAMA 1964
Control of Panama Canal Zone challenged; rioting against US forces.

INDONESIA 1965
Army coup assisted to an unknown degree by CIA; left-leaning elected government toppled; between 250,000 to 1,000,000 lives lost.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66
Troops invade during election as pre-emptive action against leftist rebellion or communist government.

GUATEMALA 1966-67
Command operation; Green Berets aid in combat against leftist rebels.

CAMBODIA 1969-75
War against leftist forces; intense bombing; up to 2 million killed.

OMAN 1970
US directs Iranian invasion in support of Omani government against Marxist "Dhufar rebellion."

LAOS 1971-73
US directs South Vietnamese invasion.

CHILE 1973
CIA-backed coup ousts elected leftist president; rightist dictator installed.

ANGOLA 1976-92
CIA assists South African-backed rebels.

EL SALVADOR 1981-92
Advisors aid government forces against leftist rebels.

NICARAGUA 1981-90
US directs guerrilla exile invasion ("Contra war") against revolutionary government; US forces plant mines.

LEBANON 1982-84
Marines help police negotiated evacuation of Palestine Liberation Organization; US forces combat Muslim and Syrian fighters in support of Christian government.

HONDURAS 1983-89
Military bases established for US-backed "Contra war" with Nicaragua.

GRENADA 1983-84
US troops topple pro-Cuban government.

LIBYA 1986
Air strikes against nationalist government with terrorist links.

BOLIVIA 1986
Operation Blast Furnace; US troops and Bolivian police face peasant resistance in cocaine-producing regions.

IRAN 1987-88
Intervention on side of Iraq in war against Iran.

U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989
Troops restore order after civil unrest spurred by Hurricane Hugo.

PHILIPPINES 1989
Armed US aircraft support constitutional government against failed coup.

PANAMA 1989-90
Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 US soldiers; more than 2,000 people killed.

GULF WAR 1990-
Operation Desert Storm drives Iraq out of Kuwait; 200,000+ killed. No-fly zone ongoing; periodic bombing.

SOMALIA 1992-94
US-led United Nations occupation during civil war.

YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94
US troops in NATO operation to enforce sanctions against Serbia and Montenegro.

BOSNIA 1993-95
Operation Deny Flight patrols civil war no-fly zone; air combat, Serbs bombed.

HAITI 1994-96
Troops restore elected leftist president to office three years after coup.

CROATIA 1995
American and NATO forces attack Bosnian Serb airfields prior to Croatian offensive.

SUDAN 1998
Pharmaceutical factory with terrorist links bombed; retaliation for terrorist attacks on US embassies in Africa.

AFGHANISTAN 1998
Bombing of Islamic fundamentalist military camps; retaliation for terrorist attacks on US embassies in Africa.

YUGOSLAVIA 1999
US aircraft play the key role in heavy NATO air strikes against Serbian forces in Kosovo.

COLOMBIA 2000
Special Forces train anti-narcotics and anti-rebel battalions, supply combat aircraft.

MACEDONIA 2001
US forces in NATO's Operation Essential Harvest partially disarm Albanian rebels.

AFGHANISTAN 2001
In retaliation for terrorist attacks in US, forces attempt ouster of Afghanistan's Taliban government, attack bases linked to Islamic militant Osama bin Laden.

How can you lose when you already won?

Leaving now does everything you post against. Propping up leaders, helping fanatical groups gain power by choosing the wrong side. Restoring old regimes against the popular will of the people on and on. Leaving now loses everything gained. It loses the war, period. The country will fall into complete turmoil, the Israelis will move, the Iranians will move, as they are now. The Syrians will move, hell Egypt would probably even get in there along with the rest of Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries.

The power and the images of this “real” war, are biased. You don't show the power of a new hospital being built, the power of an Iraqi school girl giving a soldier guarding her path to school a flower, the power of a man having his head hacked off for contracting his service in Iraq is considered to much realism, even though the power of a dead soldier in a casket is groupie fodder. Why, because it pisses people off and rallies a little support for, versus against.

The power of gunshots flying out of a speeding ambulance is also too much. The power of a bunch of caskets in an airplane is nothing to me. How about getting real and showing the power of a dead soldier with a masked Iraqi/Iranian/Syrian standing over him kicking his body. If you want to get real let's show that and gauge public reaction even though pictures of 9/11 are too much to show because they “hurt” the families of victims, but it’s OK to show soldier caskets before family sees them. Hell let’s pull the lid off the biased coverage. In fact lets show a home movie of soldiers playing cards in a tent before it was shelled and the game ended abruptly. Let’s show the face of the enemy. I am all for your need to show the Power of War because I think you will achieve your ultimate goal that way. We win the war, provide security for a stable government based on their own constitution and WITHDRAW when they get it all together.

You forget one thing, it wasn't the media the published the picture or broke that story on the prison. It was the military. Those photos did not go to a media outlet the soldier had the conscience. He gave them to his superiors who said, WTF? This is bullshit. And the rest is history.