Don't Need a Router with SonicWALL?

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June 1st, 2004, 03:43 PM
AngelicKnight

Don't Need a Router with SonicWALL?

Ok guys, I'm being driven crazy at the moment, so I could really use some input from the folks who know at AO.

We're currently running a LAN here with a DSL connection and all traffic being run through an old Cayman router that's on its last leg. So, we're currently trying to figure out the best means to replace it. In the process, we're considering moving from our SBC DSL to Comcast Cable.

Here's the thing: my boss, who handled all of our IT stuff before I came on, is convinced we do not need another router. He is absolutely certain that we can take a modem, configure it as a bridge, connect it to our SonicWALL, and the SonicWALL will handle everything else we need, therefore no router needed. Now this is new on me. He's got me completely confused as to how this is possible without a router.

Seems to confuse tech support too. This trick has yet to work as we have yet to connect the LAN to the Internet through either DSL or cable modem without the Cayman router. Both SBC and Comcast tech support are talking to me like I'm crazy anytime I describe the situation and ask for help. Nonetheless, he remains absolutely convinced we don't need a router.

So is there some magic to SonicWALL that I just don't know about that allows us to get away without a router, or am I going to have to find a way to convince him that his idea simply won't work?
June 1st, 2004, 04:02 PM
ss2chef

When you say last leg, what do you mean?

When you say modem, what do you mean? What type of modem? Your DSL modem?
Your DSL modem (ATM Bridge in most cases) may be able to do things like DHCP, NAT (Inet connection sharing), and basic port forwarding if required.

Is this what you are meaning? Whats the make and model?

If you do replace, consider using www.smoothwall.org and an old PC with 2 nics.

SGS
June 1st, 2004, 04:04 PM
gunder

Well looking on sonicwalls website, some of their products look like they have built in switches. If that's what you have you might be able to get it working, if I understand correctly. If it's not one of the ones with a built in switch then I'm at a loss as to how you would do it without the router.
June 1st, 2004, 04:10 PM
AngelicKnight

The Cayman is an old model (company no longer exists), and it's starting to drop connections pretty often as a result of its age (so sayeth SBC support).

DSL modem: SpeedStream 5100
Cable modem: Comcast Terayon TJ715x

Basically, the modem is connected to the SonicWALL (SOHO3), and the SonicWALL is connected to one of our two Netgear 24-port switchs where all the other computers (all 20+ of them) are connected. That's it.

That said, IF that is sufficient enough to get all these 20+ comptuer happily connected to the Internet, configuring the SonicWALL to do so is another issue. I have to manually enter the IP address and default gateway of the modem. However, since Comcast dishes out IPs dynamically, I have no static IP for the modem to enter, nor a value to give for the default gateway.
June 1st, 2004, 06:06 PM
AngelicKnight

I think we can indeed use it as a switch (still unsure). However, the problem is the SonicWALL has to be configured with the WAN gateway and WAN IP address of the modem in order to work. Unfortunately, since in one case we're using a Comcast modem for which the ISP assigns IP addresses dynamically, we have no such static IP address for the modem to use for that. So how in the world do I get around that?
June 1st, 2004, 06:46 PM
ss2chef

So the modem wont give out private IP address info on its internal interface?
That is strange...Are you sure?
June 1st, 2004, 06:50 PM
AngelicKnight

That's what's even better, the modem has NO interface. I figured there'd be something like a configuration utility you could pull up on a browser via IP address (as is the case with the DSL modem), but nope, techie that installed it said it has no such thing. So I have no idea how to get a fixed IP and gateway out of this thing to tell to my SonicWALL.
June 1st, 2004, 08:02 PM
halv

Interesting problem.

I would ask your boss to let you try it your way (a way that you are sure should work) and show him the results (a working network with a firewall in place).

I don't know your setup, but in most of the offices I support we have a DSL or Cable internet box. From that we go to a firewall box (linux machine with two NIC's). From there we go to a switch and all of the winders machines have a static IP address.

The linux box can be set up for either static or DHCP on the untrusted side (the side that plugs in from the firewall to the DSL/Cable).

If you NEED a static IP, then you should be able to pay more to the provider and get it.

Good luck and keep us updated!

~Halv
June 1st, 2004, 08:07 PM
pZargs

I am still in the process of getting my ccna, But in class we were kinda discussing this scenario, It is my understanding that you can't communicate with other networks in an efficient manner(the way he proposed). It can be done the way he propose's but with a router it would seem to me case closed. Let me know what you guys go with!

p.s. tell your boss togo ebay for router :cool:
June 1st, 2004, 08:09 PM
ss2chef

Quote:

Originally posted here by AngelicKnight
That's what's even better, the modem has NO interface. I figured there'd be something like a configuration utility you could pull up on a browser via IP address (as is the case with the DSL modem), but nope, techie that installed it said it has no such thing. So I have no idea how to get a fixed IP and gateway out of this thing to tell to my SonicWALL.

Again Strange...

What happens if you traceroute from a box inside the network out to the world?
Should show an IP of the next hop (might can be used as gateway address)..??
June 1st, 2004, 08:18 PM
Tiger Shark

Angelic: All the Cable/DSL modems I have come across will respond to a DHCP request and will pass the configured, (by the ISP), IP address to the responding device, (in this case, hopefully, your sonicwall). If you can tell the Sonicwall to gets it's address automatically and then restart the Sonicwall it should pick up the required IP to make the connectivity.

If you can't do this connect any workstation the ethernet connection of the modem and restart it after telling it to get all it's information automatically. The run ipconfig /all and you have the information you can manually put into the Sonicwall. If the Sonicwall can operate as a DHCP server for the internal devices, let it. Otherwise you need fixed IP's internally or fix the LAN address of the Sonicwall and set up a DHCP server with an appropriate scope internally.
June 1st, 2004, 08:24 PM
cacosapo

Your boss is right Angelic. FW will do both jobs, FW and Routing functions. At least on that configuration. DSL MODEM --> FW --> Internal Network.
You will get just one IP from ISP (im suposing that) so your FW should to NAT for you. And SonicWall will.
June 1st, 2004, 08:58 PM
AngelicKnight

Thanks guys, I'm about to go give that a try. Will report back soon!
June 1st, 2004, 09:51 PM
AngelicKnight

It almost worked, that's the farthest I've gotten! I hooked a laptop up to the cable modem and set everything to detect automatically, then pulled the info off it via ipconfig /all. Unplugged from the laptop, then plugged into the WAN port on the SonicWALL. Both WAN and LAN link lights turned green (an improvement!) thus detecting connections. From what I gathered from the ipconfig on the laptop, I entered the info for the WAN Gateway, WAN IP, and WAN subnet mask into SonicWALL configuration. Finally, I pinged a website from the SonicWALL...and it failed. But at least I know the connection's detected, so it's gotta be something I'm missing in configuration. Any more ideas?

As for DHCP, we have a domain controller on the LAN that dishes out IP addresses to all machines, so I don't think we need DCHP enabled on the firewall then, right?
June 1st, 2004, 09:53 PM
cacosapo

does the ISP needs any kind of authentication? what was the process when modem was connected direct to pc?
June 1st, 2004, 09:56 PM
AngelicKnight

All I had to do was plut it into the laptop and I was automatically connected, so I didn't have to configure anything.
June 1st, 2004, 10:19 PM
ss2chef

Quote:

As for DHCP, we have a domain controller on the LAN that dishes out IP addresses to all machines, so I don't think we need DCHP enabled on the firewall then, right?

Your firewall can take a DHCP address from the modem DHCP server on it EXTERNAL interface
if DHCP is in fact running on the modem.
Your firewall should not use DHCP to get an address on its internal interface unless you configure a reservation with the internal DHCP server. You want the INTERNAL interface of your firewall to have the same IP all of the time so your INTERNAL users can rely on the same gateway IP.

Do some more trial and error here...

LOGIC: Your workstations are just another node on the network. If they can route out to the Internet, so can your Sonicwall...If the Sonicwall won't take an address via DHCP then hardcode one in there.

You have got to be real close...With the info everyone has given here...Keep plugging away..
June 1st, 2004, 10:27 PM
gunder

good thinking ss2chef, it's gotta be something with the IP address's now.
June 1st, 2004, 10:31 PM
Tiger Shark

I'm guessing that with this thread and the thread you started in Addicts that you are still on DSL..... That being the case DSL tends to use PPOE, (Point to Point over Ethernet) rather than straight TCP/IP as cable does.

PPOE requires a username and password to complete the connection.

If that is the case then hopefully Sonicwall can accept a PPOE. If so you need to talk to the DSL provider to get the PPOE user/pass combination and enter it into the Sonicwall to allow that connection. Then if your internal stuff is set up right they should all start to work.....

Don't give up... you are close.... ;)
June 1st, 2004, 10:35 PM
AngelicKnight

This probably won't tell you anything more, but nonetheless here's what I'm looking at after configuring it (note when I say "pulled from modem" I'm saying it's taken from what I got from doing "ipconfig /all" on the laptop I connected to it earlier):

Network Addressing Mode: NAT Enabled
SonicWALL LAN IP Adress: 192.168...
LAN Subnet Mask: 255.255.255.0

WAN Gateway (Router) Address: 68.46.... (default gateway I pulled for the modem)
SonicWALL WAN IP (NAT Public) Address: 68.46... (IP pulled from modem)
WAN Subnet Mask: 255.255.254.0 (also pulled from modem; notice the "254" difference)

DNS Server 1: 68.51... (pulled from modem)
DNS Server 2: 68.51... (pulled from modem)

All that seems to be in order....Can't think of what else I could be missing just yet...
June 1st, 2004, 10:39 PM
AngelicKnight

Sorry for double-posting, trying to keep responses to different posters separated.

We're actually not configured for PPOE. When it's connected to DSL the network addressing mode is still set to "NAT Enabled", so there's no username/password to enter for PPOE.
June 1st, 2004, 11:15 PM
SexyBadGirl

Re: Don't Need a Router with SonicWALL?

Quote:

Originally posted here by AngelicKnight
Ok guys, I'm being driven crazy at the moment, so I could really use some input from the folks who know at AO.

We're currently running a LAN here with a DSL connection and all traffic being run through an old Cayman router that's on its last leg. So, we're currently trying to figure out the best means to replace it. In the process, we're considering moving from our SBC DSL to Comcast Cable.

Here's the thing: my boss, who handled all of our IT stuff before I came on, is convinced we do not need another router. He is absolutely certain that we can take a modem, configure it as a bridge, connect it to our SonicWALL, and the SonicWALL will handle everything else we need, therefore no router needed. Now this is new on me. He's got me completely confused as to how this is possible without a router.

Seems to confuse tech support too. This trick has yet to work as we have yet to connect the LAN to the Internet through either DSL or cable modem without the Cayman router. Both SBC and Comcast tech support are talking to me like I'm crazy anytime I describe the situation and ask for help. Nonetheless, he remains absolutely convinced we don't need a router.

So is there some magic to SonicWALL that I just don't know about that allows us to get away without a router, or am I going to have to find a way to convince him that his idea simply won't work?

Your boss is correct. You can set the cayman up as a bridge and use the sonicwall as a router. Let me show you a sample config. from one of our SonicWall's

Set the Cayman's type to: RFC-1483 Bridged Ethernet

The cayman should have a WAN IP such as: x.x.71.90
And a Gateway address of: x.x.71.89

Then it should have a useable range of static IP's. Below is a sample of ours.

x.x.77.193 to x.x.77.198

Set the cayman's LAN interface to one of the above range. I suggest .193, or .198 for clarity.

Now set that same IP address in the sonicwall's 'WAN Interface' under GENERAL ---> NETWORK tabs. Now the the sonicwall has become the LAN gateway. From there you can use sonicwall's routing tab, under: ADVANCED ---> ROUTING to build your static routes.

I'll send you the bill.

- Quad
June 1st, 2004, 11:16 PM
Tiger Shark

No problem with the "double post"... One was a rant, (understandable), but you mentioned Comcast and I wanted to make sure we weren't talking apples and oranges.... ;)

If you have that information directly from the modem then it still could be using PPOE. When you say the laptop connected... do you mean you can get to yahoo or whatever or just that it gave you the IP information?
June 1st, 2004, 11:17 PM
SexyBadGirl

Also DON'T forget to turn off any DHCP, and or firewall options on the cayman. Or you will be chasing your tail.
June 1st, 2004, 11:19 PM
AngelicKnight

Sexy -- thanks for the input, but the Cayman's not the problem, it's rather switching to the cable modem.

Tiger -- Indeed, I can both pull IP info and connect to the Internet no problemo from the laptop. I'll check with SBC on that PPOE question then.
June 1st, 2004, 11:22 PM
SexyBadGirl

Angelic, I understand that. You're not hearing me. I was using the above config. to show you it can be done; using the DSL modem as a bridge.
June 1st, 2004, 11:25 PM
Tiger Shark

Sexy.... You are "of use"... I apologize for any previous slander or questions regarding your sexual preference or lineage...... :)
June 2nd, 2004, 12:47 AM
SexyBadGirl

Quote:

Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
Sexy.... You are "of use"... I apologize for any previous slander or questions regarding your sexual preference or lineage...... :)

HAHA thanks. But don't be confused. I just got back from vacation, so, I'm in a good mood. Your opinion may change again soon. :D
June 2nd, 2004, 04:16 PM
AngelicKnight

Gotcha Sexy, thanks. It looks like we'll be sticking with DSL after all too. Turns out our cable connection will drop us from time to time (what I'm gathering from tech support), in which case we have to restart everything. Given that IPs are dynamic, that means I'll have to hook up a laptop to the modem to pull its new IP every time we restart it. So, that's probably going to cost Comcast our business.

Any suggestions on good DSL modems to turn into bridges for this?
June 2nd, 2004, 06:17 PM
SexyBadGirl

Cayman works fine. Any DSL router or "modem" will do, as long as you've got access to the config. and it supports bridged ethernet. And it's not PPOE of course.
June 2nd, 2004, 06:24 PM
AngelicKnight

Well the problem with the Cayman is it keeps dropping the connect. SBC tech said this was because it was outdated and thus sold us a SpeedStream 5100 modem to bridge as a replacement (has yet to work).

However, I recently heard from someone that somewhere out there there's a firmware update that will fix the problem on the Cayman. Have you heard of that? I have yet to find it Googling.
June 3rd, 2004, 02:12 AM
Lansing_Banda

Okay if you are using a cable/dsl provider you are haveing this scenario

internet --> cable/dsl modem --> SonicWall --> Network

If this is true then here is where your problem is. The cable/dsl modem that you are using is acting as a DHCP server. So what you are getting is

internet -->DHCP -->DHCP --> Confused as Hell

What you are going to have to do is what Tiger said earlier. You have to configure your modem to work in pass through or straight through mode, whatever it is called. Basically make it nothing more than a phone line to RJ-45 convertor.

Then you have to configure your sonic wall to connect to the ISP with PPoE because the modem isn't anymore. For this you need your office's username and password. You should be able to connect now.

Finally, set your Sonicwall to function as the DHCP server with whatever subnetting you need.

If you need help with this, call your ISP and ask them how to configure their modem. You should be able to access it by going to a broswer window (connect a computer directly to the modem) and go to either 192.168.1.1, 192.168.1.254, 192.168.0.1, or 192.168.0.254. If none of these are right then off to the ISP.

Good Luck and post back if more help is needed or if mine doesn't work.
June 3rd, 2004, 03:16 PM
AngelicKnight

Quote:

You should be able to access it by going to a broswer window (connect a computer directly to the modem) and go to either 192.168.1.1, 192.168.1.254, 192.168.0.1, or 192.168.0.254. If none of these are right then off to the ISP.

Yeah, and would you believe the tech who installed it said there was no such management interface for the modem? So I have no way to configure it thusly. *cough cough* RIP-OFF! *cough cough*
June 4th, 2004, 08:11 AM
Lansing_Banda

*my jaw drops*

Call those bastards back and tell them to give you a decent modem or your going to change ISPs. That is Horse stuff. I am with Bellsouth and have a dinky crap modem and I can still go in and fix stuff.

Say that there product is not working as they said it would, say it is defective (because it is), or just say I hate you guys gimmie a better modem.
June 4th, 2004, 02:48 PM
AngelicKnight

Yeah, we were only giving their service a test run anyway. Obviously they failed miserably, so we won't be doing any further business with that ISP...Lame-o!