Violence over Art?

Hey Hey,

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DISCLAIMER:

I seldom post here anymore. I used to post more in Cosmos than anywhere else, however my Anti-American sentiments almost lead to me being banned from this site. Anyways, this is probably old news, however I just read it this evening/morning and I'm outraged. You may see my Anti-Americanism stand out here, so that's been your warning... now on with the post.

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So I'm browsing around kuro5hin.org and I see this headline:

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Art Against Iraq Abuse Earns Black Eye

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Off that article there was a link to Zeke's Gallery @ Blogspot which contains a picture of an innocent art gallery owner with a black eye.

Off of this blog, there is a link to Arts + Action : SF Bay Area Indymedia. This website has photos, videos, and articles. There is also a picture of the painting in question.

Now that I've given you information, time for my post. This is absolutely outrageous. I find it hard to believe that a society can be so brainwashed, so uncultured and uncouth. This woman was spat on, punched in the face and her children had their lives threatened. I'm asking any American who reads this to explain this... This is a prime example of why the world hates the US. The general census is nothing more than a bunch of bloody savages, I'm surprised many of you don't eat your young. I almost said urinate in the street, but people do that everywhere.

The SFPD just told her to close the business? I dunno but last time I checked here if you recieved a death threat, the cops would protect you, or at least find out who did it. I recieved a death threat from a fellow employee once, he was restrained until the police arrived, charged and held in lock-up for 24 hours, before being released with warning to stay away from me.

I was finally started to accept that Americans are people just like everyone else, now I'm starting to wonder. I realize it isn't all of you, and that many of you are really great people. Hell I have several American friends from AO and other places. However your masses make you all look like a group of ignorant, mindless slobs. It seems to me that America needs a nice bout of genocide. Get rid of the political powers and the majority of these lower class savages and it'd actually be a nice place to visit.

If any brain washed American drones visit this website, I'd really love to hear you attempt to justify your fellow American's actions. Those of you who are intelligent and American that visit this site, I'd love an explanation of the actions of these retards (I'm sorry, but there's really no other word) that live next to you.

Anyways, I hope this disturbs everyone else as much as it disturbs me. Freedom of speech has been removed, so has protection from police... next they'll be vigilante justice and then anarchy. Although anarchy would probably provide more civility than Bush currently provides.

Peace,
HT

Try not to think of it as violence. Think of it as a kind of kinetic art form
When I punch you in the eye, I am only expressing myself.
You see, here in the USA we are very liberal in our definition of art

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...an+art+form%22

HT,

Just like any other country, America also has those few people who will go and do something like this. The same exact thing happens in canada and in across the globe. The problem is that here, in the US, everything is given way too much media attention, something that you don't see in Canada for example. It is election time, so you ill find in the media pretty much anything that has to do with Iraq one way or the other. Irresponsible journalism and very ignorant liberal journalists plague the media in the US. Just because some redneck who needs to cut his mullet does something stupid, doesn't mean he represents any particular part or group of people in the US.

my 2cents

the press is blowing it out of proportion and the press has caused it to happen. after a few notes left on the gallery door and some eggs thrown at her window she removed the painting from the front window. she said she was just trying to sell art, not make a political statement, which would have been the end of story but the press picked it up as if it were a current issue and did some rable rousing. tempers are high, its a sensative issue so its not too hard to find a few on the edge. the police suggested that she close the gallery until it blows over NOT shut the gallery down.

how does this differ from what happened with the visit of Jean-Marie Le Pen in england, or the way people react anywhere when a focal point is made of an issue that is hot. do you think it more outragous because its over a painting? ive sold a couple of paintings. if i were to do one of you having anal intercourse with a moose or a member of your family in some compromising situation would you call it art and not be offended if it were done in a painterly way then placed in the front window of a highly visable gallery? besides many of our young should be eaten.

now if you really want to see a shining example of american spirit. there's a man with a bulldozer somewhere in colorado...correction there was a man with a bulldozer in GRANBY, Colo...

Hey Hey,


For those of you wondering about the Granby Comment by Tedob1, I believe he was refering to this http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Winnip...05/486644.html, which makes Americans look even worse.

You can sit there and say this happens all over the world, but it doesn't. The US bulldozer incident is a prime example. When's the last time you heard about someone jumping in a bulldozer and going on a rampage here in Canada... or in most other parts of the world for that matter.

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ive sold a couple of paintings. if i were to do one of you having anal intercourse with a moose or a member of your family in some compromising situation would you call it art and not be offended if it were done in a painterly way then placed in the front window of a highly visable gallery?

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I'd be honoured to be featured in art. I may be somewhat offended, but that's my right, I'm in the picture. Joe McViolent walking down the street has no right to be offended by it.

Now back to my comments on this topic.

Suggesting even to close the gallery until it blows over is repulsive. That's horrible police work. If the cops said that to me and I was getting death threats, I'd start killing off police officers, until I finally got some that wanted to do their job, rather than have people who have no interest in doing their job. I thought cops were supposed to protect and serve... doesn't sound like they did either of those things in this case.

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Just like any other country, America also has those few people who will go and do something like this. The same exact thing happens in canada and in across the globe. The problem is that here, in the US, everything is given way too much media attention, something that you don't see in Canada for example. It is election time, so you ill find in the media pretty much anything that has to do with Iraq one way or the other. Irresponsible journalism and very ignorant liberal journalists plague the media in the US. Just because some redneck who needs to cut his mullet does something stupid, doesn't mean he represents any particular part or group of people in the US.

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In the US it's not a few people, it's like half the population and that's what bothers me. You can blame the media all you want, but why not blame the people doing it? It is news, whether you think it is or not and that is why it's reported. You hear stuff about Iraq because your politians mention it, your media mentions it, and everyone else mentions it. If the general public was intelligent enough to say, "Hey we don't belong over there, it's none of our ****ing business" then the politicians would see that and focus on other topics, and then the media would be forced to divert there attention, other than reports of the news you all are currently still making... stuff like... a handful of American soldiers died today while slaughtering 1000s of innocent Iraqi civilians. You know the kind *******ish stuff your "soldiers" (I prefer the term cowards) do over there. However that's a whole other can of worms, that I don't feel like opening. My last comment would be how do you know about Canadian news? I sure as hell know you don't get it down in the US... I've spent time down there. Our news covers what's happening be it murders, a guy driving over a gas pump (was humerous to see), and whatever else. We just don't act on our news.

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how does this differ from what happened with the visit of Jean-Marie Le Pen in england,

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That was a political protect... against a person who has basically said they want to close borders to immigration. As much as I want to see this happen in Canada, I realize it's supposed to be a bad thing, and most people are against it. It was a political protect based against his party, those actions I can see. The day he became a politician and made remarks of those sort he started asking for those kind of actions... protesters, when in masses, end up doing some stupid things but that's because they don't share the same political views and don't want to see said changes made.

This differ's greatly from the incident in SF. She was an art gallery owner, not a politician. She was displaying art, not saying she wanted to change these rules about the country. She took it down and the attacks still continued. You say tempers were high, there was no need for tempers to be high.... that's nothing more than an excuse. These people were violent, sadistic animals who had no need to get angry in the first place, they just wanted to have some fun.

The general populous of America frightens me. Somedays I'd rather deal with Bush, than most of your civilians... and that says I lot since I'd kill Bush on sight if I had the chance (waits for the FBI, or CIA, or whatever the new US squad is that's been started to kill those who express freedom of speach). The US (not your politicians... everyone needs to stop blaming the politicians for these kinda things, same with the media... blame the politicians for tax hikes and **** like that... don't blame them because you are violent), anyways, The US reminds me of a caged bull. You sit there, kicking up dirt and causing a commotion and you get angry because of it. Then as soon as you get a chance to run you don't... you attack someone out of anger instead.

A buddy of mine once offered me 50K USD to go down and work in a Data Centre he ran. I laughed... I couldn't picture myself living in the US. While you have your share of intelligent people... you have way to many stupid ones to offset the few who are intelligent.

Peace,
HT

come on HT! your link really doesnt do justice to yankee ingenuity. this was built by one man in a garage. the entire nation of france cant do it as well

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040605/D830SQHG0.html

"It looked like a futuristic tank," said Rod Moore, who watched the dozer rumble past within 15 feet of his auto garage and towing company.

Trainor said the dozer's armor plates consisted of two sheets of half-inch steel with a layer of concrete between them.

Grand County Commissioner Duane Daley said Heemeyer apparently used a video camera and two monitors found inside to guide the dozer. Two guns were mounted in front and aimed through portals. Other portals were cut in the back.

It was unclear how many guns were found with Heemeyer. Authorities speculated Heemeyer he may have used a homemade crane found in his garage to lower the armor hull over the dozer and himself.

The buildings <damaged> included the cement plant, a utility company, a bank, a newspaper office, a hardware store and warehouse, the home of former Mayor L.R. "Dick" Thompson and the municipal building, which also housed a library.

Crumpled patrol cars and service trucks lay in the dozer's path. A pickup was folded nearly in half and had been rammed through the wall of a building.

Town manager Tom Hale said Heemeyer was angry after losing a zoning dispute that allowed a cement plant to be built near his muffler shop.

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your not entirly wrong, so yes be afraid. be very afraid. you dont know how lucky the world is to be dealing with president bush. there are many amoung the general population that still think we should "turn the sand to glass". lets not forget your dealing with some of the more intelligent americans here (self not included)

personally i also would like to see our boarders closed and return the statue of liberty to the french via cargo planes at thirty thousand feet. id like to see our troops pulled out of every nation in the world then using only half the money we are now build the most deadly armed force the world will EVER see. do nothing with it but mind our own friggen buisness. im not saying this is an intelligent solution but thats what id like to see.

about the news from canada. i dont hear that much. im now hearing about a deadly infection spreading threw hospitals immune to antibiotics but thats unusual its normally just the occasional attack on jewish temples.

HT: In all honesty.....

The First Amendment gives you the right to say anything you please.... Unfortunately, it doesn't give you the right to be heard, listened to, accepted, or reacted to..... It simply gives you the right to say what you want.

Freedom of speech comes with some responsibility and intelligence. If you know that you are putting something out "in the faces" of people that will not like it then you should probably think twice about putting it in "their face". The First Amendment allows a black man to walk into a bar full of rednecks and tell them that they are a bunch of stupid honkey bastards whose mothers prefer.... Well, you know...... It doesn't legislate the possible reaction.

This lady placed a picture out there in full view of "the world". A picture that she had to know would offend many in the current situation. Just because it's "art" doesn't reduce the potential for offense to others. Art is not sacrosanct.... You can say that art should be separated from politics etc. but it isn't.... As long as artists try to make political statements with their "art" then the political inference will be seen in it. Remove the political statements from the art and make it inoffensive.... make it _art_ and situations like this would disappear.

But this didn't happen... She didn't think clearly about the possible implications.... She probably agreed with the underlying political statement..... But she still knew that the display of such "art" would result in a visceral reation from some..... She chose to ignore that potential, probably for fiscal reasons, (she wanted to sell it or draw people into the gallery). Either way she made a bad decision......

Is violence against her right? No, obviously..... But you seem to be castigating Americans and making it sound like the police don't give a rats azz it's unfair..... There's a million people that would call for 24/7 police protection in Canada and the US.... It's not doable.... period.

What is doable is being responsible and intelligent with your First Amendment rights.....

This would not have happened had she chosen to place the painting at the back of the gallery and put something else in the front window...... She "made a bed"..... She ended up lying in it.... She thought it would make her money.... She paid the price of freedom...... It isn't "free".....

Hey Hey

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Is violence against her right? No, obviously..... But you seem to be castigating Americans and making it sound like the police don't give a rats azz it's unfair..... There's a million people that would call for 24/7 police protection in Canada and the US.... It's not doable.... period.

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Sure a million people may call for it but this is a case where it's needed. The police really didn't seem to give a "ratz azz." When Somone receives death threats, has children who receive death threats, is spit on and assaulted you don't just say close the shop. You protect that person; regardless of what everyone thinks, that's their job. I realize that this is a problem with police officers everywhere. They're nothing more than arrogant, lazy bastards. However my opinions on cops could fill a thread, they are the lowest form of life and should all be killed of.

However, I still say that the violence against her was ridiculous, just as this muffler shop managers actions were ridiculous. There's no need for any of this and my comments were that Americans jump to violence way to quickly to solve their problems. I'm ashamed to be a neighbour to the US. I guess it makes sense though. America likes to bully weaker countries, and American citizens like to bully others who are weaker then they are.

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The First Amendment allows a black man to walk into a bar full of rednecks and tell them that they are a bunch of stupid honkey bastards whose mothers prefer.... Well, you know...... It doesn't legislate the possible reaction.

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That comment doesn't help either. All it shows is that you have even more stupid, ignorant Americans that rely on violence.

I'm not just some random Canadian who hates Americans, although let me say most Canadians I know dispise Americans. I've spent much time across the northern states. I grew up in view of Michigan and spent 19 years there. I've spent weekends in cities across Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio and Minnesota. I've seen first hand the hot-headed arrogance of American youth. Most of your teenagers should be taken out back with a paddle and had some respect beaten into them. They come to Canada and do nothing but pick fights, thinking they are better than everyone else. How about when you spend a night in a tourist section of a city and the front desk clerk at the hotel tells you to stay in after dark because it's not safe.

American is a violent land, and the rest of the world realizes it. It's time for you to realize it and do something about it.

Peace,
HT

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You protect that person; regardless of what everyone thinks, that's their job. I realize that this is a problem with police officers everywhere. They're nothing more than arrogant, lazy bastards. However my opinions on cops could fill a thread, they are the lowest form of life and should all be killed of.

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I for one hope they'll all live happily ever after!

A while ago, my wife got a speeding ticket from a cop (she was speeding, no matter what she's going to reply in this thread :D) while driving home (probably couldn't wait to see me).
A couple hours later, one of our boys (2.5 years old) managed to "escape" from the house (communications-problem... door not locked... little boogie walks out the door). A hell of a lot of panic, the entire neighborhood looking for him... I spot a cop driving down the neighborhood, run up to him, and tell him the story. He immediately starts looking (after saying to my wife: "yes, it's me from this morning"), and calls in seven other units. Long story short: one of our neighbors finds him after a while (playing with those flags they plant to mark gas-lines, a couple houses down), the one cop radios it in for those seven other units (all on their way, sirens, lights, everything). Cop says he's glad we found him, tells us to definitely call 911 next time it happens, and that they don't take stuff like that lightly.

Anyways: if you don't like cops, you must be on the wrong side of law :D

And btw: 90% of Americans are ignorant, stupid, arrogant, and obnoxious. Just like 90% of Canadians, Belgians, and Nigerians are.

Damn Neg and I got a 89% on that ignorant test. I was hoping they graded it on a curve. :p
HTRegz, you are ashamed to be a neighbour of the US? Come on man, what the hell does that mean? Are you that insecure?
As far as that customized bulldozer, give the guy some credit for ingenuity. And you keep on talking about how violent Americans are, but whats up with you wanting to kill cops and the president?
I think we all want to hear about how perfect Canada is, or at least I do.

Hey Hey,

Neg: As far as my hated of cops, it has nothing to do with breaking the law... I've had them pull their guns on me and threat to haul me off to jail for stepping out of a parked vehicle. The driver had ran a red and parked and we were getting out when the cops pulled up, pulled their guns and screamed "Get the **** back in your vehicle". Did the driver break the law... yes... did they pull us over? No.. they waited til we were stopped and made a big deal out of it. I've been pulled over by cops and had my vehicle searched because my brake pads were rubbing and squeeking. I was in my cousins car when he was pulled over and ticketed for "uncessecary noise" because of his exhaust (which was a fully functional system and came in at 80dB (we have a noise meter).. compare that to the average sound system install these days and it's quite low.) I've been stopped by cops and questioned on numerous occasions because I wear a hoodie and happened to be walking home from the bar or a coffee shop at like 2am. I'm glad the cops were a great assistance to you, maybe in 5, 10, even 15 years... I'll have a different view of cops... but as long as they harrass me for how I dress and my age... I'm going to have a complete disrespect for them. I used to have great respect for cops, stand up for them when others were disrespectful, but over the years as officers of the law have disrespected me, I've learned to disrespect them.

I wouldn't agree that 90% of Canadians are ignorant... especially not if you let America define ignorance... And no one even comes close to being as arrogant as Americans. They think they're Gods of the world.

devpon: It has nothing to do with being insecure. It has to do with being ashamed to be so close to a country who starts wars with no justified reason, who kills innocent civilians and uses the term "casualty of war"... in reality the term should be "for fun". I'm ashamed to be next to a country who's youths (19,20) cross the border, get liquored up and start trying to pick fights with every Canadian they see because they think they are God.

As far as the bulldozer, it is definately quite incredible that he built it, however that's no excuse for his actions.
I never said I wanted to kill cops, I'm very much against violence.. I said they should all be killed. Do I want someone to walk up and shoot them for no reason... nope.. but if they are killed off I most definately will not shed a tear. If a police officer every shows me respect, or even attempts to not disrespect me, then I'll change my attitude... but not until then. As for killing your President... that's not violence... that's common sense. Anyone with half a brain would realize that this guy needs to die.... to pay for the attrocities that have been committed by his order.

I never said Canada was perfect... We are far from it. Our latest government is making things worse and given the chance I'd find a way to assassinate our heads of state. However being against guns, it'd take a long time for me to get in range with one of my swords. However when compared to American, we look like a shining example of perfection. We're loved the world around, you on the other hand... well you're a world-wide joke. We don't go around sticking our noses in other peoples business, we don't go around killing innocent people and say it's in an effort to preserve peace. Our health care is "mostly" free, unlike yours. I think the biggest thing is that we don't have "Homeland Security" aka the Gestapo.

Peace,
HT

HT:

Man.... You have some issues..... I put it down to your youth...... Don't worry, the inexorable march of time cures these things. ;)

I find it somewhat amusing that you recommend the killing of all police officers, the President of the United States and your own legislators. Then you have that three line tagline below it. Isn't that all a tad contradictory. Methinks you're not being a particuarly good Christian...... :eek:

As to the USA being a worldwide joke and Canada being loved by all....... Son, you're only "loved" right now because you aren't high on the priority list. Remember this, (paraphrased):-

They came for the Jews, I did nothing.
They came for the Blacks, I did nothing.
They came for the Catholics, I did nothing.
Then they came for me and there was no-one left to help.

If the USA/Britain etc. fail or give up Canada's time _will_ come. The islamists don't hate American because they are *******s they hate them "because"..... They hate Canada too, they just haven't got to you yet.....

PS: WTF is a "hoodie"?

HT

I'm quite dissapointed by your ignorance in these matters. You're very foolishly weakening your character by allowing the actions of ONE person define your opinion towards a whole country. I think you are either very ignorant about Canada or are purpously closing your eyes towards the crime in Canada. ****, i'm going to hate all Muslims because of what some of them did to the US. I'm going to hate all Germans because of what they did to the jews during WW2. I'm going to hate all africans for what they're doing in their own country (killing, mutilation, canibalism), I'm going ot hate all Greeks because the dont like Albanians, I'm going ot hate all serbs for trying to kill Albanians off the face of the earth if it wasn't for USA. I'm going ot hate all Canadians for thinking they're so god damn better than the rest of the world...and here you are contradicting yourself again. You're saying "WE" think we're better than anyone else, but you think CANADA is better than us...?!?!?


I wasn't born in America, nor am I a citizen yet. Does that exlude me from your opinions about americans? Will I automatically be included in those opinions as soon as I get my citizenship?.

Lets look at a few factors here:

Canada's Population as of 2003: 32,207,113 (July 2003 est.) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/ca.html

USA's Population as of 2003: 290,342,554 (July 2003 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html


CRIMES:
http://www.nationmaster.com/region/NAM

USA:
Assault victims: 1.2% (1999)

Assaults: 2,238,480 (1999) [1st of 58]
(per capita): 7.70 per 1000 people

Murders: 12,658 (1999) [6th of 63]
(per capita): 0.04 per 1000 people [24th of 62]

Murders with firearms: 8,259 (1999) [4th of 32]
(per capita): 0.02 per 1000 people


Rape victims: 0.4% (1999)

Rapes: 89,110 (1999) [1st of 66]
(per capita): 0.30 per 1000 people

Property crime victims: 10.0% (1999)



Total crime victims: 21.1% (1999)

Total crimes: 23,677,800 (1999) [1st of 61]
(per capita): 81.55 per 1000 people

Nobel prize laureates: 270 [1st of 45]
(per capita): 0.92 per 1 million people


Canada:



Assault victims: 2.3% (1999)

Assaults: 233,517 (2000) [6th of 58]
(per capita): 7.25 per 1000 people


Murders: 489 (2000) [26th of 63]
(per capita): 0.01 per 1000 people

Murders with firearms: 165 (1999) [12nd of 32]
(per capita): 0.00 per 1000 people


Property crime victims: 10.4% (1999)
.
Rape victims: 0.8% (1999)

Rapes: 24,049 (2000) [3rd of 66]
(per capita): 0.74 per 1000 people


Total crime victims: 23.8% (1999)

Total crimes: 2,476,520 (2000) [7th of 61]
(per capita): 76.89 per 1000 people



Nobel prize laureates: 10 [12nd of 45]
(per capita): 0.31 per 1 million people



Think for one second and tell me...honestly....do you really think Canada's better off? If you think so, you're only fooling yourself, and you know it....just too ashamed or proud to admit it.

Take into consideration the Racial Diversity in the US also....and don't blame all the stupid **** on the americans. Americans are not the only ones doing crimes. You got pulled over by the cops...BOOO ****In WOO. They pulled a gun at your face...probably because your friend did something stupid. I've always been respected by the cops and they've ALWAYS helped me when I've needed them. They'd go over the line of duty to protect you so don't throw that **** in their face....maybe its just the canadian cops u were talking about?

just because the police suggest she limit her public exposier, as in a location plastered accross the news, does not mean they are not busy protecting her and her children.

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
HT:

Man.... You have some issues..... I put it down to your youth...... Don't worry, the inexorable march of time cures these things. ;)

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I don't have issues, I have eyes. I don't pull my opinions out of thin air. I form them from what I see.

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I find it somewhat amusing that you recommend the killing of all police officers, the President of the United States and your own legislators. Then you have that three line tagline below it. Isn't that all a tad contradictory. Methinks you're not being a particuarly good Christian...... :eek:

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Once again with the killing of police officers my words are being mangled. As far as legislators go, sometimes it's needed. It's not violence... it's necessity to gain control in a world they are failing. Christianity has been the cause of many wars, so that's a bad example. I am a good Christian. I have my bible and my religion, however I stay away from the useless drivel of the church.

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As to the USA being a worldwide joke and Canada being loved by all....... Son, you're only "loved" right now because you aren't high on the priority list. Remember this, (paraphrased):-

They came for the Jews, I did nothing.
They came for the Blacks, I did nothing.
They came for the Catholics, I did nothing.
Then they came for me and there was no-one left to help.

If the USA/Britain etc. fail or give up Canada's time _will_ come. The islamists don't hate American because they are *******s they hate them "because"..... They hate Canada too, they just haven't got to you yet.....

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I've got nothing against any specific race, creed, colour or religion. Just against your country. I've also said on numerous occasions that it's not all Americans that I hate. You can say people hate Canada as well, yet compare the actual numbers, America is much more hated than we are. Let them get to us then. We haven't sat for the last 20-30 years and killed off their innocent women and children. You have... 911 may have been a tragedy, but if you look at it in biblical terms.. an eye for an eye... then they haven't even gotten started on you yet. Once again, most Canadians I know share my opinion.

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PS: WTF is a "hoodie"?

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A sweatshirt wit a hood on it.

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Originally posted here by Cybr1d
HT

I'm quite dissapointed by your ignorance in these matters. You're very foolishly weakening your character by allowing the actions of ONE person define your opinion towards a whole country. I think you are either very ignorant about Canada or are purpously closing your eyes towards the crime in Canada. ****, i'm going to hate all Muslims because of what some of them did to the US. I'm going to hate all Germans because of what they did to the jews during WW2. I'm going to hate all africans for what they're doing in their own country (killing, mutilation, canibalism), I'm going ot hate all Greeks because the dont like Albanians, I'm going ot hate all serbs for trying to kill Albanians off the face of the earth if it wasn't for USA. I'm going ot hate all Canadians for thinking they're so god damn better than the rest of the world...and here you are contradicting yourself again.

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You say you aren't, but for the most part, the US is. With Homeland Security and all your other bullshit... with the events after 911... The US is one step away from concentration camps. Again, however, I never said I hated _ALL_ Americans... that's twisting my words. I hate your government, your rednecks and about 50-75% of your population.

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You're saying "WE" think we're better than anyone else, but you think CANADA is better than us...?!?!?

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You're damn straight, I think Canada is 100x better than the US. However I don't think we're better than the rest of the world. I realize that a good chunk of Europe is considerably better than Canada. I'm just looking at it as a ladder, and we're one rung above you, there just happen to be many rungs above us.

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I wasn't born in America, nor am I a citizen yet. Does that exlude me from your opinions about americans? Will I automatically be included in those opinions as soon as I get my citizenship?.

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That all depends, do you have the American hollier than thou opinion? If so, then yes, you fall into my opinions.

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Lets look at a few factors here:

Canada's Population as of 2003: 32,207,113 (July 2003 est.) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/ca.html

USA's Population as of 2003: 290,342,554 (July 2003 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html


CRIMES:
http://www.nationmaster.com/region/NAM

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Think for one second and tell me...honestly....do you really think Canada's better off? If you think so, you're only fooling yourself, and you know it....just too ashamed or proud to admit it.

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Statistics are great, but they rely on one's willingness to contact the authorities. How many muslims and islamists were assaulted after 911 and turned the other way, because when they attempted to file a complaint they were met by pigheaded cops who were arrogant, racist and just didn't care. Did you notice how these statistics also don't list how many Americans were acquitted? How many times did someone who had commited a crime get off because the cops didn't do their job, or because they had money. In the stats you posted did you also look at the total crimes listed? Did you notice that American was roughly (rounding both numbers) 5 more crimes per 1000 people than Canada. That means 1 more crime per every 200 people. In a city the size of mine (330,000) that means an additional 1650 crimes per year. That's a rather large difference don't you think?

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Take into consideration the Racial Diversity in the US also....and don't blame all the stupid **** on the americans. Americans are not the only ones doing crimes.

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That sounds like a racial comment to me. I don't even know if I want to touch that. However if you think that America is the only country with Racial Diversity then, my friend, you are the close minded one.

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You got pulled over by the cops...BOOO ****In WOO. They pulled a gun at your face...probably because your friend did something stupid. I've always been respected by the cops and they've ALWAYS helped me when I've needed them. They'd go over the line of duty to protect you so don't throw that **** in their face....maybe its just the canadian cops u were talking about?

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The cops have never done a thing to protect me, they've harassed me a few times, but never protected me. We had a break-in and called the cops... took them a couple hours to respond. Doesn't sound like they're doing **** for me. As far as the Must just be Canadian Cops? How quickly you forget Rodney King. How about some of these links, since you are so fond of links and stats.

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2...-28/cover.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...etc/boyer.html
http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories...0502cops.shtml
http://tfc-charts2.w2d.com/forum/ind...es;read=294251 *Personal Blog Not Fact*
http://www.ironminds.com/ironminds/i...27/loser.shtml *More Personal
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=426762 *Study done to show why good cops protect bad cops*
http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/03...c01-106394.htm - $14.3 Mil in settlements must mean someones doing something wrong.
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/debate/mcn/mcn8.htm - Yes it is titled "America's Plague of Bad Cops

If these aren't enough would you like to buy a tape on the subject? http://shop.store.yahoo.com/rottenstore/badcops.html. There's enough of a problem with it that they can sell a 75min tape.

I'd go on with links, but I think this has proved my point. Do you still think that the bad cops are only in Canada?

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just because the police suggest she limit her public exposier, as in a location plastered accross the news, does not mean they are not busy protecting her and her children.

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Although it doesn't mean they are busying protecting her and her children either. You can look at it your way, and I'll look at it mine.

Of course... my main reason for disliking America? FoxTrack. You people introduced cheerleaders afterwards, which I hate in hockey, but hey... I'm a guy so I can appreciate it. However FoxTrack? All because a bunch of Americans complained that they couldn't follow the puck? Talk about ruining a sport. You guys have baseball, the worlds worst sport, ruin that.... not hockey. sheesh :P

Anyways feel free to keep coming back, because I'll keep responding.

Peace,
HT

HT: I'm English.... Please don't accuse me of being American _ever_ again.... You'll be calling me Welsh next..... :rolleyes:

<Edited 'cos I finished the honey-do list and I'm at the satellite office..... I'm "free" ;)>

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they are the lowest form of life and should all be killed of.

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Hard to see how anyone is "mangling" those words.....

Your answers, as a "good christian" to many of the problems approached in this conversation have been to kill the protagonist. Yet you state you are a good christian that doesn't believe in guns, dislikes the US president enough to kill him, you want your legislators killed and you don't like nasty little American kids coming over and kicking some Canadian ass....... Those are the issues I'm talking about......

I wonder about your commitment in your stating that Canada is better than the US. You claim that Bush should be killed but then you say:-

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As far as legislators go, sometimes it's needed. It's not violence... it's necessity to gain control in a world they are failing

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If your Canadian legislators are screwing up to the same extent Bush is, how is Canada better..... They both seem equally messed up according to what you are saying... BTW... as an aside.... Killing someone is violence.... be it passive or active... It's violence.... get used to it....

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I am a good Christian. I have my bible and my religion, however I stay away from the useless drivel of the church.

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ROFL..... Thus spake the Inquisition..... You are beginning to sound like an Islamist....

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America is much more hated than we are

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I'd rather be hated for something I am than something I pretend to be..... You might want to think about that HT..... what with your christian professions and you propensity for solving your problems with violence...... just a thought.

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The cops have never done a thing to protect me, they've harassed me a few times, but never protected me.

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The simple fact that you don't get your butt kicked and your **** stolen every day proves they are protecting you daily..... You just refuse to see that and give credit where credit is due. One day you will _need_ them..... They will be there for you, even if they hate your guts.... they will do thier job and help you..... Would you do the same for a police officcer that needs help? Or would you not even piss on them if they were burning in the gutter? An American would help the cop...... So would I.... But I'm a Brit.... I have standards......

Rodney King deserved what he got.... He wouldn't respond to the orders of a law enforcement officer.... period..... He has since proved that he is a POS on more than one occasion...... Bad example.....

Can you see the ball as it's pitched in Baseball?????? They should FoxTrack that.... Where I come from baseball is called Rounders..... Only girls play it...... On that subject Basketball is called Netball..... Funny.... only girls play it and they don't even have a backboard..... they use skill to pop it in the hoop.......

BTW: WTF is hockey??????? Figure skating for men.... They allow fights and do nothing to stop it...... But then, with your propensity for violence, I'm sure that works for you.....

<end edit>

You cop lovers have never had one pull you over for nothing. It's against the law to stop you for no reason, but in Michigan you can be pulled over to have the tread on your tires meassured to make sure it's street legal, so basically, if they want to, they can pull you over.

How many of you besides HT have actually had a cop hold you at gun point while they were searching you for NO reason?

How many of you have actually ****ign been beaten by the police? I'm white, and so is my best friend, and he has had ribs cracked while he was being restrained by other cops. Those clubs they carry hurt.

Negative, grow your hair out and get a Mohawk, and wear that jacket I want, see how much they help you out then....Actually, I take that back.

Move to Michigan and try that ****. If you ran up to a cop here he would have a gun pointed at you before you made it 5 feet to him, and he would be assuming you were up to no good. The police in my town are ****ing *****s.

Long before I ever touched drugs, I had police ****ing me over. So don't try blaming that. I used to have no problem with cops. I turned 18, and started getting pulled over for what seems like no reason. I would be pulled over even when cars in front of me would be doing the speed limit....Hello, if they aren't speeding and I am, I would HIT them.

I gave up on the police.

My best friend had a problem with his neighboor and they called the cops. They showed up, and the cop said "It's not my problem, and I don't care"....Helpful. I bet he liked it when a friend said "Officer, tell your wife and my kids I said hi".

That pissed him off good, but he deserved it. "To serve and protect" My ****ing ass. They only thing they ever served me was a ticket and some beatings. I'd rather walk through 6 mile Detroit than walk through a police station, I wouldn't feel as safe.

Maybe the cops where Neg lives are different, but here, your ass belongs to them, and they are big doughnut eating ****ing lawn mowers.

When this **** was happening, I may not have been perfect, but I wasn't a criminal. I didn't steal, and besides MP3s, I don't. I wasn't doing anything wrong, and I was a very food law obiding person.

That changed after being pulled over for the 5th time for NO reason. The cop said he clocked me at 92 MPH... I had people in front of me but they weren't speeding he said.... I got a ticket.

I went to court for this because I had taken enough, the cop actually showed up, and it was my word against the cops....Guess who got believed? I had to pay a ticket that day for something I shouldn't of even been ticketed for.

That was also the LAST time I have ever bothered to pull over for the police. I have ran every time since then. Why even bother pulling over when I know what will happen? I've gotten very good at running, as I'm not in prison, and I have gotten away every time now. They are going to put effort into ****ing me into another damn ticket.

As for Americans....**** 'em.

As for Bush, **** him too

As for authority, **** it.

And is it true they may have a draft again? I'll be whiping my ass with it, and getting the rest with the flag.


I pledge defiance to the flag,
And the united states of *******s,
And to the Nazi camp, for which it stands,
One nation, going to hell,
Because our president is a ****ing dick,
With liberty, and justice for those who can afford it.

I for one have been pulled over for no reason, had the guns pulled on me for no reason, and been beaten for no reason.


**** cops.


I've been lucky enough to be able to buy my way out of every case they've ever thrown at me... It's not that I was guilty... I just wouldn't have been able to prove my innocence.

I'm leaving this country as soon as possible. I ain't going to Canada, but I was thinking somewhere around England, Germany, or France....

I'm just sick of the Bullshit here.

Gore.... You're still a child..... I live just down the road from you..... for the last 11 years..... I got stopped once..... It's all about how you deal with them..... Be an ass, be treated as such.... grow up and you'll be treated properly....... DUH!!!!!

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As far as my hated of cops, it has nothing to do with breaking the law... I've had them pull their guns on me and threat to haul me off to jail for stepping out of a parked vehicle. The driver had ran a red and parked and we were getting out when the cops pulled up, pulled their guns and screamed "Get the **** back in your vehicle".

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Uh, did this happen in the US or in Canada?
:cool:

I've never had issues with cops, and they've helped me when I've needed them. I've been pulled over before for speeding, and actually cutting the state trooper off while speeding. All I got was a warning. There is plenty of ******* cops out there, just like there's ******* cops in Canada and everywhere else. There's *******s everywhere...get used to it. As for Canadian's being better than the US...give me a ****ing break. As for kids picking fights in Canada....dude...they're kids. I've been in canada...and I must say, you guys aren't as polished or polite as you think you are...plenty of *******s in there too. Me and my friends never picked a fight, neither have all the people I know that have gone to Canada before. Just because some kids have picked a fight with canadians...all of the sudden all Americans are *******s.

#1....maybe those kids had a reason to pick a fight...perhaps some ******* told them that Canada was better than their country...and started talking **** about the US...you know very well that canadians start the ****. How would you feel if someone asks you where you're from and when you respond United States they tell you " OH FROM THAT ****ING COUNTRY". The US never did anything to Canada so your hate and the hate of many of you there is unjustified. I don't like the government in some other countries,
I dont hate the people there because of that...I mind my own business.

I've traveled to quite a few places in the US and I've always encountered nice people willing to help. I've even traveled in the south where the majority of rednecks live....still saw no sign of trouble anywhere. You start ****, we're going to fight back...you say **** about the US...expect to get it right back one way or the other. You continue to contradict yourself...quite embarassing if you ask me.

You talk **** about how the US is arrogant and violent...but as tiger said, there u are talking about assasinating the president and refering to the US with so much hate. You're being extremely close minded and ignorant about every issue that you've brought up. Seriously get your head out of your ass for a chance and smell the fresh air. Remember, you start ****, expect to get it rite back. Gee maybe americans start **** in Canada because everybody over there thinks they're better than anyone else, or just perhaps the cab driver will not serve you because you're an American bastard.....


Peace.


BTW...are u French Canadian?

Hey Hey,

This is going to be short, and I probably won't cover everything because I went bowling tonight and threw my wrist out... a word to the wise... Never get your fingers stuck when you are throwing a 15lbs ball.

I am a good christian, however you ever seen the amount of death and violence in the bible? I also follow a modified form of the Golden Rule. Do unto others as they do unto you. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. You beat me, I beat you. However as a citizen of the world, I extend that slightly. If the US kills 10,000 innocent global citizens, then 10,000 US citizens should be killed. Plain and simple... like I've always said... an Eye for an Eye.

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If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:23-25

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If you have a bible handy, read the entire section. It's titled "The Law Concerning Violence" and spans Exodus 21:12-27. It even says to kill a person for hitting their parents. This whole the bible and christianity are peaceful thing is something that the churches have made up. Read the bible, it's a gruesome book. Christianity and Peace have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

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Yet you state you are a good christian that doesn't believe in guns, dislikes the US president enough to kill him, you want your legislators killed and you don't like nasty little American kids coming over and kicking some Canadian ass....... Those are the issues I'm talking about......

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Being against guns has nothing to do with being Christian. It's personal opinion. Using a gun is like racing an Indy Car against a NASCAR, or using cheat codes in a video game. It's like people who hunt with guns and call it a sport. It's not sport, it's slaughter. Going into the bush with a bow and arrows, or a spear or blade, that's sport. I would kill the US President in a second. It goes back to the bible's "Eye for an Eye", he's signed death warrants for so many people, that killing him would be justice. I want my legistators punished, and dismissed. If the only way to cause a change of government is to assassinate or overthrow the current government then so be it. They may not have blood on their hands yet, but they have legislated changes that have set the wheels in motion to bring death to many in the future. As far as Americans coming over and kicking Canadian ass. Not quite. They come over, they're cocky and they get their asses kicked. Then they go whining home, and the next day there's a publich uproar that they can't safely come into Canada because they have to fear for their lives. The only reason that's true is because they cross the boarder and shoot their mouths off.

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If your Canadian legislators are screwing up to the same extent Bush is, how is Canada better..... They both seem equally messed up according to what you are saying... BTW... as an aside.... Killing someone is violence.... be it passive or active... It's violence.... get used to it....

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I never said they were screwing up to the same extent. They are causing problems. I mentioned I'd rather have Bush because he may be the cause of death for millions of innocent people, but at least he's creating jobs in the process. Our government is screwing us and giving us nothing back. Killing someone isn't always violence. Lethal injections kill people, and there's no violence there. Killing members of your own government may be violence, but it's justified. It's necessary to ensure a way of life. Killing foreign citizens on foreign soil is definately not justified. If they come and invade the US (and don't you dare say 911 was an invasion.... it was payback and guess what.. sometimes payback is a bitch)... then by all means kill them in self-defence. That's how I see the assassination of ones government. Self-defence. I'm defending myself and my country from being destroyed by beaurocrats who want nothign more than to line their pockets. While you can tell yourself that going over to Iraq and Afghanistan is self-defence, you are deluding yourself... it's the invasion.

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I'd rather be hated for something I am than something I pretend to be..... You might want to think about that HT..... what with your christian professions and you propensity for solving your problems with violence...... just a thought.

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Once again, Christian and Peace do not go hand in hand....

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The simple fact that you don't get your butt kicked and your **** stolen every day proves they are protecting you daily..... You just refuse to see that and give credit where credit is due. One day you will _need_ them..... They will be there for you, even if they hate your guts.... they will do thier job and help you..... Would you do the same for a police officcer that needs help? Or would you not even piss on them if they were burning in the gutter? An American would help the cop...... So would I.... But I'm a Brit.... I have standards......

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The fact that I have locks on my doors, swords in my house and my size are the reasons I don't get my ass kicked and my **** stolen every day. It has nothing to do with these &lt;sarcasm&gt;ever vigilant peace officers&lt;/sarcasm&gt;. In my old neighbourhood, there was an overpass with a city "park" under it. The cop cars would pull up in droves. 6, 7 at a time and **** for hours on end doing nothing. wtf are they protecting? a grass field? Those of you who are going to retort that those are Canadian cops, don't even think about it. I've, unfortunately, seen enough glimpses of Cops (the show), to know that US police officers are just as arrogant and lazy. I have friends who have been jumped and beaten, where were the cops to protect them? Yet these same friends have crossed a deserted street at 2 or 3 in the morning, and the cops are always right there to give them a ticket for jay walking. Really sounds like they're doing there job. While driving home today, I saw about 25 cars run a four-way stop, we were one of 3 cars that actually stopped and waited our turn. Where were the cops to monitor that intersection (It was an intersection where the traffic lights were down)... heaven forbid the cops actually do work. Yes that's horrid driving on the drivers part, however I'm also biased against most people in Southern Ontario... especially when it comes to driving... they lack the most basic of knowledge.

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Rodney King deserved what he got.... He wouldn't respond to the orders of a law enforcement officer.... period..... He has since proved that he is a POS on more than one occasion...... Bad example.....

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So I gave one bad example. Did you look at any of the links I provide? Are you going to tell me they are all bad example? Two Americans have posted in this thread to attest to the horrid work of US police officers. It goes on everywhere, I'm not just bashing American cops... I'm bashing the cop mentality. A guy I used to work with. The cops picked up him, through him in the back of a cop car and one guy jumped in with him. We didn't see him back at work because the cop in the back used his club to break the guys ribs. I had my life threatened at work and the guy had to be restrained. It took the cops over 2 hours to show up and my fellow employees had to restrain the guy because the cops did **** all. They finally through him in the squad car, drove down the road and dropped him off. So don't ever say the cops are out there protectiong me... they most definately are not. They're out there enjoying their coffee and donuts.

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Can you see the ball as it's pitched in Baseball?????? They should FoxTrack that.... Where I come from baseball is called Rounders..... Only girls play it...... On that subject Basketball is called Netball..... Funny.... only girls play it and they don't even have a backboard..... they use skill to pop it in the hoop.......

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I don't consider baseball to be a real sport anyways.... they shouldn't foxtrack it, they should abolish it. It's nothing but a bunch of overpaid "athletes" (and I use that term very loosely), getting paid to do nothing. Basketball isn't much better, but at least they actually run end to end.

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BTW: WTF is hockey??????? Figure skating for men.... They allow fights and do nothing to stop it...... But then, with your propensity for violence, I'm sure that works for you.....

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I love hockey, and they don't stop the fights, at least not while both players are standing. Do they stop the fights in boxing? kick-boxing, olympic wrestling, or any martial arts? Do they stop you from tackling a player in North American Football? It's no different, why would they stop it. It takes skill to just stand on skates, I know many people that can't do it. It takes more skill to control the puck and shoot it past someone defending a small goal. It's not a massive goal in soccer, that there's no excuse for missing... and it's not a chalk line on grass like in football... It actually takes skill and talent.

To gore and D0pp139an93r: Amen

Tiger Shark: Do you travel much or get out much? or is it driving a straight line to and from work every day? My Friend was pulled over for backing up and changing lanes because he didn't realize he was at the street he wanted... You must be damn lucky to have been pulled over once.

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I've never had issues with cops, and they've helped me when I've needed them. I've been pulled over before for speeding, and actually cutting the state trooper off while speeding. All I got was a warning. There is plenty of ******* cops out there, just like there's ******* cops in Canada and everywhere else. There's *******s everywhere...get used to it.

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I never once said there weren't ******* cops everywhere.... I just bashed cops... not American Cops.

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As for Canadian's being better than the US...give me a ****ing break. As for kids picking fights in Canada....dude...they're kids. I've been in canada...and I must say, you guys aren't as polished or polite as you think you are...plenty of *******s in there too. Me and my friends never picked a fight, neither have all the people I know that have gone to Canada before. Just because some kids have picked a fight with canadians...all of the sudden all Americans are *******s.

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When you do a survey, you take a random sampling and base your results on that. That's how scientific studies are done and results and opinions are formed. Why should I form my opinions any differently? I've dealt with more than a couple thousand Americans... I'd say that's enough for a random sampling... After all it was sites you posted that broke per capita down to groups of a thousand. Anyways in my sampling, I'd say 75-80% of the Americans I've dealt with have been *******s. Again I've never said All americans were *******s, I said most where and based on the results of my sampling... that's true.

Do you want more examples? When Canada didn't back the US in your "War" in Iraq (proper word is invasion I believe.. and I've heard that from many Americans.. not just Canadians)... Anyways.. My cousins had their tires slashed while they were in Michigan because they had Ontario plates, as did the other 5 or 6 Ontario cars in the parking lot. The gas stations put up signs refusing to serve anyone who had a Canadian Plate on their car. Stores that had previously accepted Canadian Money (remember this is a border town) stopped accepting it. You're going to tell me those people weren't *******s?

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#1....maybe those kids had a reason to pick a fight...perhaps some ******* told them that Canada was better than their country...and started talking **** about the US...you know very well that canadians start the ****. How would you feel if someone asks you where you're from and when you respond United States they tell you " OH FROM THAT ****ING COUNTRY". The US never did anything to Canada so your hate and the hate of many of you there is unjustified. I don't like the government in some other countries,
I dont hate the people there because of that...I mind my own business.

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Driving down the street yelling at random people, tossing eggs at people, threatening to kill people.. while in your car? Doesn't sound like you've got a reason to go picking the fights.

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I've traveled to quite a few places in the US and I've always encountered nice people willing to help. I've even traveled in the south where the majority of rednecks live....still saw no sign of trouble anywhere. You start ****, we're going to fight back...you say **** about the US...expect to get it right back one way or the other. You continue to contradict yourself...quite embarassing if you ask me.

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Where the majority of rednecks live... I'm pretty sure that's the second discriminatory comment I've heard from you in this thread.... I'd say you are the one who's embarassing. Who's stereotyping now? You've just stereotyped every Southern American....

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You talk **** about how the US is arrogant and violent...but as tiger said, there u are talking about assasinating the president and refering to the US with so much hate. You're being extremely close minded and ignorant about every issue that you've brought up. Seriously get your head out of your ass for a chance and smell the fresh air. Remember, you start ****, expect to get it rite back. Gee maybe americans start **** in Canada because everybody over there thinks they're better than anyone else, or just perhaps the cab driver will not serve you because you're an American bastard.....

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You are arrogant and violent, find me a non-American who disagrees with that. Well that may be too easy, find me a couple people who don't live in the US who disagree with that. I never said you were specifically, but your country most definately is. I've yet to see how I'm being close minded, you're the one who's being discriminatory... I'm stating comments based on my experiences.... that's not close minded... that's honesty. I know damn well if I start ****, I'm going to get it back... I wouldn't have it any other way. Americans start **** because they think their better... and yer damn right we think we're better... most Canadians I know do.. Hell most Canadians think we're better if only because our Health Care is free. I've heard many Americans say they'd rather be in Canada for that reason alone.

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BTW...are u French Canadian?

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I honestly don't see what that has to do with anything unless you've got another discriminatory comment on its way, however if you must know... I am not French Canadian.


Peace,
HT

[Edit]
So much for short.
Gone to ice my wrist.. can we wait until tomorrow before we continue?
[/Edit]

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Hey Hey,

This is going to be short, and I probably won't cover everything because I went bowling tonight and threw my wrist out... a word to the wise... Never get your fingers stuck when you are throwing a 15lbs ball.

I am a good christian, however you ever seen the amount of death and violence in the bible? I also follow a modified form of the Golden Rule. Do unto others as they do unto you. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. You beat me, I beat you. However as a citizen of the world, I extend that slightly. If the US kills 10,000 innocent global citizens, then 10,000 US citizens should be killed. Plain and simple... like I've always said... an Eye for an Eye.

quote:

If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:23-25

If you have a bible handy, read the entire section. It's titled "The Law Concerning Violence" and spans Exodus 21:12-27. It even says to kill a person for hitting their parents. This whole the bible and christianity are peaceful thing is something that the churches have made up. Read the bible, it's a gruesome book. Christianity and Peace have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

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Last time I checked, Christianity was focused on the acts and teachings of Christ? Sermon on the mount rings a bell... Matthew 5:38-42 ... check that out HT.
(bible is currently between a move, that reference might be off until the move is completed tommorow)

Off topic post, no responses needed :D

edit:
wish me luck on my sociology final yall...

Soda: Good Luck.

HT:

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Once again, Christian and Peace do not go hand in hand....

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With that statement you place yourself at the same level as the islamic fundamentalists who would kill you simply because you do not believe what they believe.

This is why I am an athiest. Some _men_, (in any of the religions), got together and scribbled down a few "sayings and rules" from an unprovable supreme being and sold it as the "truth". From there men have committed the most barbaric acts in the names of their "gods" and believe it to be right because they have the moral authority provided by what is, to all intents and purposes, a fairy story until the existence of the supreme being is actually verifiable. These same people are shocked when someone else, under the moral authority of another fairy story does the same to them. Thus goes the cycle of violence.

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I don't have issues, I have eyes. I don't pull my opinions out of thin air. I form them from what I see

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The pinnacle of critical thinking. Your opinons are based on "fact" yet your religious belief does not require the same scrutiny? I would suggest that since your wear the violent side of your religion like some kind of badge of honor you should probably apply higher standards to it than you do your opinions. That would especially include shunning the parts of your religion that would cause others harm until your supreme being is verifiable...... Otherwise you are a terrorist...... Which is a joke... since you also profess to shun modern weapons....

Come to think of it a Canadian terrorist is a bit of a joke too..... Ohhh... scarey.... He's going to hijack my canoe...... :rolleyes:

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I never said they were screwing up to the same extent.

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You most certainly do HT, you most certainly do. You see there are levels of "punishment" from probation to the death penalty. You have stated more than once now that both the president of the USA and your Canadian legislators deserve the same punishment, (death). Thus their "crimes" are equal in the eyes of the law and, more importantly, in the eyes of logic. But that would be a self defeating admission wouldn't it? It would imply that the Canadians are no better than the Americans since their leaders are equally bad and the leaders are responsible for their countries and their country's actions .......

HT: It seems to me that your formative years are not yet complete, (don't take that as an insult - it's not meant as one). Your stance is confused in several areas which is a sign that the formation if the ideas/ideals that will set HT apart as a true individual is not yet complete. Again, as I said before, don't worry - time will fix it.

fanaticals, often form their own "christianity" or religion. In their mind their hatred and tendancy toward violence is somehow justified, like they are above it all in some sense. Even when their actions oppose the very viewpoint they try and communicate. In essence no different than those on the opposite fence, the christian who kills in the name of Jesus and his teachings, even when their own life is in no danger and when Jesus above all else teached brotherhood. Perhaps an abortion doctor going to work would be an example, in a fanatical mind he is evil to the point where he takes upon himself to deliver justice from a higher power. This "higher power" is his own soul and the darkness he unlocks.

Hey Hey,

I'm going to stop responding... this is just turning into a petty feud... as my last reply however.. I will lay out my beliefs very plainly.

1. Guns are the worst invention ever and should be done away with. They take the sport out of hunting, and give an unfair advantage in a fight.

2. 911 was a tragic lose of life, however it was something the US had coming and deserved after years of sticking their noses in other peoples business.

3. Government leaders around the world are useless. Any country which claims to be a democracy and has only two parties is not a democracy... It's an illusion of democracy. We technically have like 4 or 5 parties running in this election, but we're still not a democracy... it just makes us feel a little better when we say we're a democracy.

4. Our countries should all become communist; capitalism is useless it causes war. We've seen that dictatorships don't work, We've seen that monarchy's don't work, and we've seen that democracy just doesn't work. Well I suppose democracy would work if we really had democracy, however we don't. Those of you who respond to this will say communism doesn't work and point out places like China... however in the world there is no real communism, and that's the problem. I have a friend from Poland, he lives here in Canada now. Every weekend he talks to his family back home, and all they speak of is how much they want communism back, how much better things were when they had communism.

5. Am I against violence? Yes... Do I understand that sometimes violence is necessary? Yes... Do I accept that some people in the world must die? Yes... However I don't accept that to get rid of one person, 1000s of innocent people must die, that is where the line gets drawn.

6. I have a problem with America and Americans. I will until the majority of Americans I meet are decent people. I will have a problem with American until the government ceases to be, and then we'll see what the elections bring in before I decide if I still hate America. Do I think Americans are hate mongers? Yes... Do I think Americans are overly violent? Yes...

7. Religion. I've tried them all out.. spent most of my life as an athiest. Since I found my form of Christianity, life has been better. I don't go to church, it's a useless place if there ever was one. I don't regularly read the bible. When I'm troubled or need inspiration... then I'll open the bible. However I try to live my daily life as a good person, and I speak with God every night. To me that's Christianity. Very basic, very simplistic and very plain. I don't look at the bible to be a holy grail, I definately don't see it as law. I see it as advice written out by some very wise men. I don't normally use the bible to justify violence, however since you all wanted to bring the bible in to play, I replied with quotes from the bible. Do I believe in God? I Honestly couldn't tell you, I ask myself the same thing many nights, however I still consider myself to be Christian... I believe Jesus walked the earth, even if he wasn't a supreme being, he was still a very wise man.

I think that's about everything.... Anyways I'm outta here, it's way to warm to be sitting in at the computer...

Soda: Nice quote and good luck on your final.

Tiger: You get mad at me for bashing Americans... You've lived there for 11 years (at a minimum from what I've gathered) and you still don't want to be called an American.... You want to be refered to as English... There must be a reason for that.... somewhere deep down inside you must dislike the idea of being American.

Peace,
HT

HT:

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There must be a reason for that.... somewhere deep down inside you must dislike the idea of being American.

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No...... Somewhere deep down inside I am _very proud_ of being English. Plain and simple. See how your logic isn't quite all there yet..... You took my positive, (proud of being English and wanting to be referred to as one), and turned it into a negative, (don't want to be associated with the USA). While your negative may appear logically viable it isn't the "truth" because rather than seeking other potential answers and then using logic to determine which is most likely the truth you took the first answer that fit your "agenda", (for want of a better way of putting it). I think this goes hand in hand with your "I have eyes" statement earlier.

I still say don't worry, time cured my brash, idealistic, youthful self.... Your turn will come.... ;)

Nice way of saying that when you grow up all your cares and ambition to change things for the better die.

"I used to care about the World, then I grew up and got depends instead."



I'd rather stay a child,
And keep,
My self respect,
If being an adult,
Means being, like YOU! WOOOOOO!

- Dead Kennedys

Gore: It's really interesting how most of your posts quote music...... Clearly you listen a lot to other's thoughts as laid out in their music at the cost of your own independent thought. Can you say "baaaaaaaah"?

Allow me to be quite clear..... I have my self respect. It is based on who I am and what I have done. You have yet to leave home and look after yourself let alone acheive anything on your own. You self respect is an illusion based on an image of self worth that, as yet, goes unproven.

Lastly, I am at least four years away from Depends. When I come to the point I require them I will tie a knot in the damn thing...... Luckily, it's long enough for some quite complex knots so the dam shouldn't burst unexpectedly..... And if it does, I have old age as an excuse.... :p

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
Gore: It's really interesting how most of your posts quote music...... Clearly you listen a lot to other's thoughts as laid out in their music at the cost of your own independent thought. Can you say "baaaaaaaah"?

Allow me to be quite clear..... I have my self respect. It is based on who I am and what I have done. You have yet to leave home and look after yourself let alone acheive anything on your own. You self respect is an illusion based on an image of self worth that, as yet, goes unproven.

---

... Damn, just shoot the gun of disrespect at the face why don't you...

I quoted music for two reasons:

When you were pretty much saying that as you get older you don't have these feelings anymore, it reminded me of a DK's song. Another reason is because I was listening to that song as I replied.

This is a political thing now, and so Dead Kennedys are perfectly relevant in this. Jello Biafra does more spoken word than even Henry Rollins.

Excuse me for enjoying music that has feeling and heart in it. I don't expect you to understand, I don't think you ever got into Punk Rock.

My own independent thought... I agree with a lot of what they say....The same way every state has a person to represent each state to the gov, I can use lyrics to show how I feel.

Thanks anyway, it's always good to hear that after hard work this semester in college that I still have never done anything worth respecting.

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Damn, just shoot the gun of disrespect at the face why don't you...

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I'm a pretty good shot too..... One of the things I am proud of..... ;)

It's not an issue of whether I still have the "feelings" as you put it. It's an issue that, (and I'm sure you've heard it before), with age comes some wisdom. With age comes a more mature understanding of the issues as a whole and the way the system works or is broken. It's all fine and dandy to say when you are twenty that we should do away with world hunger, but the reality is that no matter how hard you try to fix the system at the rich country's end you won't cure world hunger..... Because you are powerless to fix the poor country's end where all the aid you send gets funnelled into someone elses pockets. It's a lofty goal, that appears, on the surface, do be doable and all that needs to happen is deal with the greed etc. here. But you simply can't deal with it there.

Gore, I wasn't much different to you and HT and many others here I'm sure, (I may have been worse). I thought I knew everything and everyone else was screwed up. The difference is that today, some 25 years later, I know I don't know everything and I understand that everything isn't quite as simple as an idealistic twenty year old thinks.... because I was an idealistic twenty year old...... don't forget that.... so were your parents..... You remember them - the old fuddy duddies that ground you when you were just trying to express yourself..... ;)

I remember Johnny before he was Rotten.... and there's that sheep in you again..... Implying that I missed something by not being "into" punk rock..... Are you trying to tell me that the oracle for world peace and the end to all problems is held in the barely intelligible lyrics yelled over a crushingly boring, badly played, three chord "melody"? Or are you trying to tell me that the one true rebellion against maturity and wisdom is held in same. Either way.... You are wrong.... Every generation has thought the same thing about their popular culture at that age. Punk rock is no more a great revelation than Elvis was...... Trust me.

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can use lyrics to show how I feel

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Try forming your thoughts into your own sentences.... It solidifies them and it allows you to see the subtleties at work around your beliefs as you think about how to place your own verison of the concept on paper. You'll be a better person for it.

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it's always good to hear that after hard work this semester in college that I still have never done anything worth respecting

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Oh boy... You worked hard for a third of a year.... I understand that with the shorter amount of time you have been around a third of a year seems a much greater portion of the whole.... But it still isn't much.....

Please remember that just because I'm not falling into line with your view of the world and I'm telling you that you are young and hotheaded and will grow up one day doesn't mean I don't respect your hard work and any acheivements you have managed to date. I just see them in a broader perspective and when viewed as a part of the whole they aren't so impressive. When viewed only in the persective of you, your life and your peer group they seem huge.... I know that..... I was twenty once before you know...... ;)

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
I'm a pretty good shot too..... One of the things I am proud of..... ;)

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So am I. I shot my first AK-47 about 3 years ago.

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It's not an issue of whether I still have the "feelings" as you put it. It's an issue that, (and I'm sure you've heard it before), with age comes some wisdom.

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Yes, you have been around longer than me, but age doesn't meen **** to me. I've met 15 year olds that were way more intelligent than some 50 year olds. I also understand there is a difference from being smart, and being book smart. Life is not taught to you, you have to pick it up as you go. I understand that.

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With age comes a more mature understanding of the issues as a whole and the way the system works or is broken.

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Actually, I read about this stuff a lot, and I do have a good understanding of what could be fixed and why, but why listen to me? I'm just a kid that knows nothing.

I support our troops too, bring the ****ers home to the Wives that miss them.

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It's all fine and dandy to say when you are twenty that we should do away with world hunger, but the reality is that no matter how hard you try to fix the system at the rich country's end you won't cure world hunger.....

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Of course it won't work. Then you wouldn't feel bad about them watching the infomercials on TV.

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Because you are powerless to fix the poor country's end where all the aid you send gets funnelled into someone elses pockets.

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Anyone who wants to actually help would go to these countries and give food to the people, not the power.

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It's a lofty goal, that appears, on the surface, do be doable and all that needs to happen is deal with the greed etc. here. But you simply can't deal with it there.

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Maybe your wise old ass could learn something from a young punk kid like me. Just because it seems impossible doesn't meen you should give up. The light bulb got invented after over 100 failures.

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Gore, I wasn't much different to you and HT and many others here I'm sure, (I may have been worse). I thought I knew everything and everyone else was screwed up.

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I'm not like that, don't assume I think I know everything. I may not show it well, but I know when to feel disgusted. Everyone else is not screwed up, just the people who control.

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The difference is that today, some 25 years later, I know I don't know everything

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The other difference is you seem to have lost the wiull to even try. No one knows everything except God. And that's how it should be.

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and I understand that everything isn't quite as simple as an idealistic twenty year old thinks....

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I never said it would be simple. I know it isn't. Please don't assume I'm an idiot kid like the rest who want to change the Earth.

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because I was an idealistic twenty year old...... don't forget that....

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Yes Daddy.

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the old fuddy duddies that ground you when you were just trying to express yourself..... ;)

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No not really. I could argue good enough to not get grounded.

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I remember Johnny before he was Rotten.... and there's that sheep in you again..... Implying that I missed something by not being "into" punk rock.....

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And there is that thinking inside the box in you again, implying that I was implying anything at all. It's music, rebellion, don't take it THAT seriously. I agree with a lot of what some of them wrote, but I didn't say everyone had to listen to it. I said I didn't expect you to understand, I did NOT say you missed out on some big secret.

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Are you trying to tell me that the oracle for world peace and the end to all problems is held in the barely intelligible lyrics yelled over a crushingly boring, badly played, three chord "melody"?

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Who the **** died and left you in charge of what's good or bad in music? It's one thing to show wisdom, but it's another to just take a cheap shot like that. The idea was to be different from the people who worried about music being perfect, the message is more important than the number of string used. And most importantly it was fun.

The Misfits, are you trying to say Glenn Danzig can't sing? Can't write? He must be good enough, Jonny cash has covered his songs quite a few times. the man can sing and write. You're welcome to listen for yourself, but you won't find many people who write songs any better. And as for the 3 chords....They did that to give respect to the rock of the 1950's. I'm sure you're old and wise enough to remember the 50's. The Misfits made a CD called project 1950, listen to it and open your mind.

The only bands that "Yelled" as you say, were Hardcore bands. Punk rock has no yelling, they don't need to. I don't think The Ramones did a lot of it. Glenn does, but he can actually hold a note. I can see you don't make any music though, all you see are yelling mad kids, I see someone spilling the heart into music instead of killing the people that made them that angry. The Misfits were one of the bands to completly define Melodic Punk. anyone here knows they have a lot of Melody, and they also actually SING, not just have a vocalist.

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Punk rock is no more a great revelation than Elvis was...... Trust me.

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Don't talk **** about Elvis, he was a great singer, and good musician. I respect music.

Trust you?...

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Try forming your thoughts into your own sentences.... It solidifies them and it allows you to see the subtleties at work around your beliefs as you think about how to place your own verison of the concept on paper. You'll be a better person for it.

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If only you knew me about 7 years ago. You'd see I've made a hell of an improvement as a person. Don't assume so much about me. I'm not what you think I am trying to be.

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Oh boy... You worked hard for a third of a year.... I understand that with the shorter amount of time you have been around a third of a year seems a much greater portion of the whole.... But it still isn't much.....

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This is a problem. You older people think all youngins' are nothing but no good bad people, and when they do something to better themselves, it's never good enough for you. And then you wonder why we are the way we are. Nothing is ever good enough, and even when we start taking steps in the right direction, we aren't taking enough steps to please you. Guide us, not gripe at us. Remember, you're the wise one.

And considering my plans 7 years ago were to do nothing and die hopefully soon, I think I'm doing a hell of a lot better. I have a job lined up for when I get out of college, and I have made 3 albums of my OWN music. Techno and Punk rock mainly, but I made it all myself, and had no producer, no people playing anything, I did it myself. I also have an entire book of my writings which have been shown on a few places because friends and people I don't know seem to like how I write.

Just because I mentioned I work hard in college...Which actually I didn't, I went another semester without even reading the books and got straight As.

Don't think that just because I'm young that I think I know everything, or that I'm not willing to learn. You should know know me better than that by now.

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Please remember that just because I'm not falling into line with your view of the world

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My outlook on the World is not like anyone's. I may sput off lyrics sometimes, but I have my own opinions on how things look to me, and how I'd like them to look. Given the chance I could easily show that.

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and I'm telling you that you are young and hotheaded

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I'm German, Irish, and Scottish, of course I have a temper.

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doesn't mean I don't respect your hard work and any acheivements you have managed to date.

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Besides what I have written for AO, and the people here I have helped, I don't think you know any of them.

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I just see them in a broader perspective and when viewed as a part of the whole they aren't so impressive

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Again, it's not like I have had as much time to do things as you have.

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When viewed only in the persective of you, your life and your peer group they seem huge.... I know that..... I was twenty once before you know......

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My peer group includes a long list of people of every age, sex, and belief. I have friends from 14-60 years old. As for my life. You've never been in it long enough to make an opinion of me, or my goals.

And by the way, I'm 21.



EDIT:

Forgot to add something.

You may be old and wise, but;

WHO DRAGGED YOUR ASS BACK UP ON YOUR FEET AND TOLD YOU TO TRY AGAIN WHEN YOUR TUTORIAL DIDN'T GO WELL? ;)

click click click click....

all out of ammo.

Oh dear...... So much ammunition...... Hard to know where to start......

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So am I. I shot my first AK-47 about 3 years ago

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Can you hit a man size target moving across your front at 10 mph at 100 meters seven times out of ten in under 15 seconds? Pulling a trigger is one thing, hitting what you aim at is another.... BTW, there was humor in that original statement hence the winking smiley.... Did you miss it or chose to ignore it?

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but age doesn't meen **** to me

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Good man.... you have solved the first "puzzle" age and intellect are mutually exclusive. Respect your "betters" not your elders......

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I'm just a kid that knows nothing

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You may have ideas, they may be the right ideas..... in fact they may be the idea that solves a problem..... What needs work is your presentation of said idea to make others understand it's value and buy into the concept..... I have no problem with that....

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I support our troops too, bring the ****ers home to the Wives that miss them

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You will find that most of them would disagree with you, (maybe not the spouses but they "joined up" when they married a volunteer serviceman/woman. The problem there is that often the spouse doesn't understand the level of commitment the serviceperson has until it is too late).

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Of course it won't work. Then you wouldn't feel bad about them watching the infomercials on TV.

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Ahhh... the old "tugging of the heartstrings"..... Your ancestors used to live in exactly the same way..... You're here.... Don't worry..... humans are remarkably resilient creatures.

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Anyone who wants to actually help would go to these countries and give food to the people, not the power.

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Then what is your ass doing in Michigan???? You castigate me for not rushing out and helping after seeing an info-bloody-mercial yet you are still here..... What are the logistic issues that prevent you from going there and dishing out food willy-nilly? Same as mine I bet.......

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Maybe your wise old ass could learn something from a young punk kid like me

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I learn things every day from "young punk kids" like you..... I've actually learned things from you though I probably shouldn't admit it.....

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I may not show it well, but I know when to feel disgusted

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Back to the "communication issue" I mentioned above...... Funny thing is I'm only telling you what my father told me when I was your age..... I knew he was wrong then and promised I would never be anything like him..... Funnily enough I'm sat here saying the same things to you that he said to me..... I have a suspicion that, no matter how "bad" you are or think you are, you will be telling some kid the same thing I'm telling you right now in 25 years time.

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The other difference is you seem to have lost the wiull to even try

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No... wrong.... I have understood that I need to change things I _can_ change not the things I can't. I still have the bruises on my forehead from banging this head against brick walls.... luckily it's a thick old head and the brain cell survived..... ;)

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No one knows everything except God

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We have already established in this thread that I do not accept the existence of your supreme being. Let's not obfuscate the dialogue with questionable entities..... ok.....?

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Yes Daddy

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Call me Grandpappy...... I'm far from perfect.... I'm not directly related..... But my experience might be able to help you if you don't do what I did and disregard my advice as simply rubbish from an old fart that doesn't understand..... Yep, that about sums it up..... &lt;LOL&gt;

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I could argue good enough to not get grounded.

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This really only leaves three possibilities:-

1. Your parents are dumb..... (I don't buy this one).
2. You are brilliant..... (I don't buy this one either)
3. Your parents give you a break.... (My money is here)......

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And there is that thinking inside the box in you again

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There's a box????? Enlighten me... I missed it in my tumultuous youth... sorry.....

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Who the **** died and left you in charge of what's good or bad in music

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Ronald Reagan?

Bad joke.... Great man....

It's not the quality of the music.... it's the quality of the presentation..... it's also _my_ opinion on the music. You take such great offense to that comment.... Wow.... It's music... an _art_ form.... It has no relevance in logic or sense.... It's an interpretation of a persons feelings about an issue.... It's illogical captain...... Don't base your life and beliefs in something based on feelings. Simple acceptance of feelings, yours or other's feelings, are not the basis of good sense, policy or a way to manage your life..... If you truly worked on those feelings you'd be in Africa giving out food..... But the _logic_ of life prevents you, doesn't it?

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listen to it and open your mind.

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What you fail to understand here is that my mind is open..... But it's now filtered.... Filtered from those things that have been through it a million times and it knows that we are going the wrong way down a one way street..... It's all been done and thought before Gore.... You bring nothing new to the table...... The issue is that you have yet to understand this yet.... It'll come....

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Don't talk **** about Elvis,

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Back to communication...... What did I say bad about Elvis..... He was cool.... You inferred something.... that's that damned silly young heart of yours speaking again.....

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Trust you?...

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It's a thought you might want to entertain for a minute or two...... I'm not trying to screw you up here......

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I'm German, Irish, and Scottish, of course I have a temper

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Gore, if you have one yet please tell me what your passport says...... I have $5 says it does/will say American all over it.... And I'm close enough to drive over and collect the money and still be in profit!!!! You just made a _really_ "grow up" comment.... It's that communication issue again.

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Don't assume so much about me. I'm not what you think I am trying to be

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I don't assume anything about you..... I take what you say, what you say about yourself and how you present it and have my picture of "Gore" from that...... You make the picture... I only look at it.

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Again, it's not like I have had as much time to do things as you have

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No.... you haven't.... But with the effort you claim to be expending you should be fine.... just don't automatically refuse/refute things us old farts have to say..... We're not totally ****ing stupid you know..... ;)

Gore.... I can see that you are a good kid that is trying..... Don't give it up.... It takes work and thought...... You'll be ok if you don't give up.... But remember that you will learn that you can't win the war, but there are many battles you can win that will contribute to the winning of that war..... Use your skills to win the battles and die happy that you contributed to the war.... No man can win the war alone.....

Finally..... Why do you think that I gave a rats ass about how my tutorial "went down" and whether you "dragged my ass back on it's feet"? In my life..... It's irrelevant.... meaningless.... You'll learn to distinguish between the important and the unimportant in your life too..... Community acceptance is not high on my list of priorities.... Sorry if your comment didn't hurt me..... You can't.....

[Edit]

For the fact that it took me too long to type and that it reflected my initial statement and that I find it funnt that RoadClosed came up with the same analagy.....

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click click click click....

all out of ammo

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Too funny..... Road.... you're a star..... <LOL>

[/Edit]

Since I had myself locked in a vacuum this weekend, I just found out a little while ago that Ronnie had died. Good joke though, in a twisted sense. ;) With all the food in the world, why do some starve? I'll tell you the reality, but I want to hear some thought about it.

OK, I'm only going to say this once:

I'm NOT trying to hurt you/ Attack you/ Or anything else you seem to imply...And that ****ing imply word is being jused way to much now.

Now what's this about me not being brilliant? I've been Social Engineering since I was about 5, except I didn't know it was called that abck then, I figured I just knew how to Bullshit for what I wanted.

As for hitting a man sized target...I don't shoot to kill humans, I do it because it's relaxing. I enjoy shooting. I'll kill things when I open Unreal Tournament up again.

Now I know the above was a shocker, a Teen who listens to "bad" music, and watches violent movies, and plays bad games, likes to shoot assualt rifles, and has no intentions of hurting anyone.

I didn't attack you for not feeding the starving...Why did you say "Then what is your ass doing in Michigan???? You castigate me for not rushing out and helping after seeing an info-bloody-mercial yet you are still here..... What are the logistic issues that prevent you from going there and dishing out food willy-nilly? Same as mine I bet......."

... Alrighty...

I'm not there because I myself don't have the money to get there, or the money to buy food for them. If one of my CDs gets in the right hands and I get a record deal and become rich, I'll do shows there and raise money for them.

I know you're going to probably reply telling me how I won't ever make it in music and I'll never do anything like that and I need to find something to put food on then table, but the same people said the same things to every other great.

Why should you not admit to learning from me? I don't understand that at all.


In 25 years....I don't know I'll be alive then. Maybe you'll luck out and I'll get shot at again.

As for my passport, my familly came here a few years before I was born. A couple people in my familly don't even speak English.

Hmm, I'm done. Most people are probably only even reading this now to laugh at what a stupid punk kid replies with no matter what I come up with.

Bye.

For the record, I'm not giving up the "War" but when you can't win a battle, don't kill yourself trying to keep going. Live to fight another day.

Well I see that this is a bit of a Canada v's USA thing but I would like to point out that neither country has a monopoly on bigots and narrow minded people.

At the outbreak of the First World War people smashed the windows of shops with German sounding names and even stoned daschunds ("sausage dogs") in the street. A fine example of British liberalism, stiff upper lip, and sang froid?............stoning dogs?..........didn't think to stone the bloody King of England though? a FIRST COUSIN of the German Kaiser???

On the other hand the picture seems pretty innocuous compared to some of the political cartoons you see in our daily newspapers and satirical magazines, so I don't think it would have caused that much of a stir over here?

I liked the bit about the bulldozer, it reminded me of a programme we have on TV over here called "monster garage".........they get five days to turn a normal vehicle into something else...........this this week they converted a hearse into a tow truck for illegally parked cars............I liked the bit where they fitted the giant saw to the hydraulic arm and sliced the captured vehicle in half :D

Incidentally, to stop a vehicle with the engine running just get a large potato and a mallet, and hammer the potato up the exhaust. The explosive didn't work because there was no back pressure and it would be blocked by the silencer baffles ;)

Just my thoughts

I have started to post a reply in this thread several times, and then decided it amused me too much, and there was not a thing I could add that any of you might really understand.

Thats an age thingy by the way. Sorry Tiger, your getting there, but are still just a kid also. Johnno is probably the only one who would really understand my references.

Age dosen't denote wisdom, although the best psychologists in the universe are old grandmothers. Age has absolutely nothing to do with intellegence, in fact, the older I get -- the dumber I become.
Youth combined with great intellegence, usually means a punk ass kid that is a frantic and super opinionated. (Don't mean to offend anyone, but could really care less)

Any body that claims everyone else is just prejudgiced is usually the most prejudgiced of all. Example: Blacks are on the average more prejudgiced against whites, than the average white is against blacks -- now days. (and my apologies to any nonprejudgiced individuals of African Amereican desent that may be offended, no apologies to any others)

I wish you all personal peace, on your journy through life.

Edit: added an attachment for your enjoyment

gore you'll make it big if you keep your mind on it's course of learning. Nihil we have monster garage over hear too. That and a couple of shows where they build cutom choppers (motorcycles) make me almost think about cable or satellite tv. Moxnix, I held back my opinion for some of the same reasoning. Since it's near the end and right on target Nihil and yourself sums it up pretty well.

Mox:

Er... Yeah, thanks for the precis..... ;)

Other then that I feel the bruises coming on the forehead again..... I tried at least..... &lt;sigh&gt;