social acceptability of pirating and hacking

Okay....I'm sure I'm opening myself up to flames and negative points here, but I'm honestly curious so I"m going to ask anyway.
Online, in forums and chat rooms etc...hacking and software piracy are common, you hear about it all the time, people joke about it etc.
My question is for those of you actually out in the computer world, working in an enterprise environment.
How acceptable is it then to make the same off-handed comments about these topics?
I'm wondering if this is a sensitive area for some people because of their job functions or such.

Hey Hey,

This prolly belongs in Misc. Security Discussions rather than Newbie security discussions..

I'm not sure how willing I am to answer this.... but I want to attempt to. Have I seen software piracy at work? Yes... However, the software pirated is usually used for about 30 seconds, then it's removed. Does this justify it... no, but when you need something done right now sometimes it needs to be done. I could tell other stories, but I'm going to wait and see how others respond and how they open up about their places of employment.

Now on the hacking side of things. I was hired by the Student Technical Support office but at the same time I'd had an interview with Network Services.. the reason I didn't get into NS was that they labelled me a hacker for pointing out a hole in their security. So yes hacking is huge and not something that's romanticized like it is on many forums online. We released a new E Learning Web Portal not long ago. We were going to be supporting the portal and a guy I was working with at the time asked if he could security audit the portal. The response he got was "No.... they know it's full of holes but they're launching it anyways".... So that makes me believe they don't take hacking too seriously (completely opposite of my other experience with them).. I think it depends on the Attitude of the people you are dealing with.

I'm sure people with more experience and better jobs will have more information for you and if I can think of more I'll add it later.

Peace,
HT

My boss wanted me to install K3B (it's like nero for linux (kde)) so he could rip his DvD's..
I didn't do it and told him if he wants such stuff he'd better take the time to learn how to do it himself !!

Personaly I have no morral problems with copieing..

I think it's a natural move from copieing LP's and CD's to tape (later to CD ;))
If I like something enough, I'll buy it anyway (for support, books etc..)

I think a lot of the talk about Piracy is FUD !!

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Faqt
those of you actually out in the computer world, working in an enterprise environment.

---

Mr. Spock would never allow that kind of talk, but Dr. Mcoy would more than likely be too drunk to protest. :D


For real though, I would never limit your posts to anything beyond common sense.

If it is a legitimate Topic, you will receive a great deal of different responses......(the reason for posting).

That is the fun part. ;)

With hacking it's a harsh label to get rid of. [in the society, not out here where we still try to remember what a hacker truly is]

As [indirectly] pointed out by HTRegz it's sometimes better to play dumb and not care. Sure I could have done an audit on my [ex] school's brand new webdomain for some common and less common security issues. But if I did it on my own I could end up like Lamo, and they would get all fired up if I mentioned anything rhyming to 'audit'. With the decreasing trust that people that people have when it comes to security, it's no wonder a server is more likely to be hacked than properly secured [of course large companies aren't quite like so... but you do you think .edu is the favourite skiddie domain?]

Anyway I'd rather not let too many people that I am technically oriented. Whatever I know could be misinterpreted in the minds of peons therefore it's best left up there with my other thoughts.

As for piracy... worksite piracy can cause a company to get shutdown/severly fined. Home piracy is most of the time employed due to lack of funding, and it goes on the lines of "I had no money for this thing, so I wasn't going to buy it". The knowledge of piracy, however, is what causes people that do afford software/movies/music to download rather than buy. I do not recommend illegal software when I am asked for it, music or anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by the_JinX
My boss wanted me to install K3B (it's like nero for linux (kde)) so he could rip his DvD's..

---

I wouldn't either, he is not worthy of *nix. K3B to rip his DVD's - what is the world coming to !!

dvdbackup -M -i /dev/cdroms/cdrom0 -o /home/user/dvd .........
then open a little Wine and an older copy of dvdshrink (some windows based proggies are good) and presto, instant DVD backup to put on your DVD -/+R media, complete with menu's etc etc ... in less than 1/3 the time it takes to rip to avi.... but suppose that doesn't help if he hasn't got a DVD burner :(

I must admit tho, K3B makes the DVD burning a dream .... now kids do not attempt this at home unless you own that DVD ;)

Piracy is a very grey area to me.

On one hand I would never dream of having a pirated version of anything at work other than on my FAST box. (So called because if we ever get audited it will go out the window really fast)

On the other hand I don't object to taking a disk home with me and installing the same product and license at home.

Very often I think companies allow there products to be pirated easily because it makes sense.

E.G macromedia suite is made increasingly popular by people using it for web design. Joe public can't afford the full suite but yet tonnes of web sites are using it.

go figure.

I have similar experiences HT in that I usually grab something that I need really quickly, but never keep. MB02, I have noticed that not only Macromedia, but graphics design products such as Photoshop or 3d Studio Max are being ripped increasingly.

-Cheers-

Now I am a strange duck when it comes to warez and pirated programs. I have never used or download any. I have most every thing that I can find that is freeware and I have used programs like the 'Cleaner' that has a trial period, but absolutely nothing that is pirated.

Its not that I am really against piracy or warez. If I wanted to download music, I would. Its just that my wife has an extensive CD collection ( about 500-700 CD's) and if I want to listen to some thing I just get what I want from her collection.

Like HT, if I needed a program right away, and it was avalible as warez, I would get it and use it. But, I have never needed one that I couldn't find some thing for free or with a trial period to use instead. Unlike HT, I would probably keep it once I had it......but that would be strictly for home use also.

I have seen quite a few small to mid sized companies that buy a program with a singel licence and use it on multiple machines. I would not turn them in, but if I were the owner of one of these companies, I would be very worried about disgruntaled employees turning me in.

As for hacking/cracking, I would be suspicious of any one who lables them selfs as such. They would be automatically considered skiddies by me untill they proved themselves other wise (if they even got the chance).

If some one came to me and told me they scanned my network and found some hole, I would be very interested in what they found and if they knew how to secure it. I would also want to know how and what they used to find this hole. But then, it would be my personal LAN and I would not have to be worrying about losing my job, because my boss could get pissed about me not doing my job.

I guess it is a matter of perspective.

humm.. do i need to be honest here?
nvm
i confess. I had used "non valid" copies of softwares on several ocasions.
- Sometimes, just because i need that just one function that just one software need (like when ive received a visio file and a didnt have visio do convert it to other stuff)
- Other ocasions i need to solve a f... problem and ive got a lot of tools on a "gray" way. And I did it on companies (big ones) just to fix the problem.
- and other times just because i was too lazzy to go thru purchasing structure and buy it.

Sometime in past, i realized that i was a dumbass. And i quite that.

If someone thinks that this or that software costs too much, just dont use it. But NEVER, NEVER steal other' work. Piracy is that: one guy work like a dog, and another get the finished good for free.


Now im the guy that hunt those pirates down.
And never forgive: one minute of piracy = one year

Yeap, (besided i grow up), my role has changed on market.

But from time to time......

(please do no try this at home. piracy can be dangerous for your wallet)

It really depends on the work environment. Sometimes you work with people and it's fine, other times it isn't. I have been permanantly banned from ever stepping foot on the premises of my old workplace due to their fears that I'd do something bad to them.

I never did anything while I was there and don't really care to....they're just scared of it. One of my old bosses here said he'd be reluctant to hire me back here if they ever got rid of me due to my skillset for pretty much the same reason.

When it comes to pirating and warez most respectable companies will can your ass nowadays. They don't want the legal liability. Many companies treat unauthorized auditing of their systems and applications the same way.

Our office uses Linux all the way up the chain. We have VERY few MS based pc's in use so software piracy isn't much of a concern. The only time I can think of an issue with software piracy was when my supervisor asked a co-worker for a copy of Office XP. My co-worker directed my supervisor to OpenOffice.org instead. The End. :D

Hmm...so, I guess it just kinda depends on the situation. I've wondered for quite some time what kinds of answers I would get to this question.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions folks.

Faqt,

I am with hypronix, Juridian and the rest. Using cracked or pirated software is a definite NoNo at work, because of the legal implications for the employer. In the UK this is something that does get policed, as we take piracy very seriously because it is a crime.

The other angle, that I did not see mentioned, is the security one..............hacked and cracked stuff might have a lot more than what you think in it :eek: So most employers strictly forbid the installation of any unapproved software, legitimate or otherwise.

It has been my experience that corporate and institutional customers have no difficulty in obtaining fully functional trial software for as long as they like, after all, they are the kind of business that the suppliers really want.

just my thoughts

Regarding piracy at work, what I have seen happen is that firms have a few licenses for software which will be installed on far more machines then they should be, this is especially the case with operating systems (i.e. Windows). Some comapnies now undertake software audits to ensure that they are in compliance now and that this is not the case, but this is often the result of receiving a fine, or getting a negative audit.

Also, people who work for very large corps may use pirate software due to the huge amount of work they need to do to get a license key for certain specialist tools (due to internal bureaucracy), so someone will get a key and then do what they can to make sure it keeps on working.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by nihil

The other angle, that I did not see mentioned, is the security one..............hacked and cracked stuff might have a lot more than what you think in it :eek: So most employers strictly forbid the installation of any unapproved software, legitimate or otherwise.

---

I understand that more or less any administrator is going to say no when it comes to installing the pirated softwork on a production network..... but how many of those stern 'no's 'turn into hell yes's when their work day is over and they're sitting in front of their personal computer.

you cant imagine how many companies (large ones) have "warez" on production network... its amazing. I cant post their names here (obviously) but i had joined some "auditing" on that companies and... lol.
Ranking:
1. "over" licensed software. A lot buy , lets say, 1,000 copies and install 2,000. Its pretty common. Winner is: Microsoft client access license
2. Office "+1". a lot of companies has , for example office 2000 licenses, but is using a "lot" of office xp licenses. They "need" the new version, but they dont want to "pay for" it
3. Windows XP licenses. (on medium to small companies). They are "migrating" to Windows XP from win98, but "for free"
4. Backup/recovery tools and server side a/v - admins love to install on servers "demo" versions of those tools - but with some tuning (like never-expire crack) - pretty common at server side

when we arrive at those companies and caught them, they say (company owner) "i know nothing about that - its administrator' fault"

its really funny.....

Piracy is part of our lives now. Pfft, you think I'm going to pay $300 for Windows XP, which is little more than a GUI upgrade from Windows NT, which was you had to pay with your limbs to get in the first place. I think piracy is just the consumer's way of telling [insert industry here] to lower their prices and stop treating consumers like slaves. Of course, that's the way it's always been...and always will be....a con, but the pro is; We don't pay for what we use. It's pretty bad when the software to make software (i.e. Visual Studio apps) is pirated, and the software that was made with the pirated app, is pirated itself...I wonder how far the legalities go on that one.

Just to keep this going with a new twist:

What about software that you really can't buy anymore?


What if you take a copy of Windows NT home from work to use it on a box? Is it REALLY wrong? It's not likeMicrosoft would sell you another copy, they don't support it anymore.

That's of course an example, but really, ould that even be wrong when it's not longer sold by them, not supported, and they would make no money anyway?

I've looked for a copy from Microsoft and they don't have any, and wouldn't make money anyway.

Now for me personally...Well, I have about $15,000.00 worth of software sitting around me, not including the copies of Linux I owe SCO for ;)

I've paid for all of it unless it was Open Source / Free. And even then, I've got about 20 copies of Linux and BSD that I've paid for.

I've legally given a copy of Windows away. If you actually look over the EULA, it says if you give away the only copy you have and the license, than it's OK. But they have to get the license too. I gave my best friend Windows 3.11, and I don't have it backed up anywhere, as it was on the original floppies it came on.

You can get software free from work if you talk your Admin into it.

Yeap, Gore, sounds great.
Just for fun, it wont work here, since if you GIVE something to other ppl (as a donation) you must pay tax for it. (10% of original value i think)
Of course you can sell for $.01 and pay equivalent taxes for it...
Some companies make this kind of agreement. they buy an "enterprise license" and all user can use software on their home computers too. Its pretty common on A/V software.
However, i never saw that kind of agreement with Microsoft.

I LOVE piracy. Especially the eye patches, and foul-mouthed, shoulder perched parrots. Totally O.G. pimps of the 7 seas. HAAAAR MATEYS!

Hmm...I was thinking about starting a thread on this myself when I remembered this one was here. It's definately an interesting state of affairs. I for one don't mess with warez, though I have to admit it's a huge temptation. Me being the ethics nut I am though, I can't bring myself to do it.

Today, I started sifting through company software so I could start making backups of all of our important programs (seeing as we don't have any backups!). Here, all the software is kept up in the president's office (I know, odd place, would make my life much easier if it was in MY office, being net admin and all...ah well). So, I'm grabbing CDs from his stash here and there and bring them down for copying when -- oh look -- here's this CD-R marked "Flash MX"...Hmm...Must be a copy we made of software we purchased. So, to satisfy my curiosity (plus I'm dying to get my hands on Flash), I install it on my box down here to test it out, when lo and behold, the contents of the CD are an expired trial version and "crack MX.exe".

Lovely.

So, I promptly uninstalled everything and plan on getting that hot little CD out of my hands rather quickly. But it's annoying. The big money-drenched corporation won't dish out the piddly $1,000 to purchase it, meanwhile I'm foaming at the mouth to get my own personal copy knowing that I won't have that kinda money anytime in the near future. Grr...

Meanwhile, it turns out that before I came onboard, it was common practice to make a copy of a Win CD and install it on multiple machines, all using the same product key. So, at this point we're in a licensing nightmare were we to ever be audited by someone. So guess who's been given the job of sifting through all this copied software? Yep, you screw it up, I go and fix it. Ah, fun...

But I disagree with the aformentioned statement that "it's always been, and will always be". Keep in mind that relatively speaking, we're still on the front end of the cyber-era, and I would lay you money that as open-source grows and supply and demand balance out so consumers will get a clue and stop dishing out ridiculous amounts for software, that these software companies will be forced to start pricing reasonably in order to stay afloat. Maybe not soon, but eventually. It's simply how the "invisible hand" of the market works, I'd expect anyway.

Sexy bad girl............or should I say Quad?................please leave those parrots alone................they are totally vicious................and would eat red peppers that would put hairs on your chest.........only way I could get in the pet shop was to bribe them..........that chain is never short enough :D

Piracy is wrong............but in some parts of the World it is the only alternative, as they cannot afford the full Monty


My thoughts

Yeah, I remember you making that point in another thread. In those countries no money is being lost since they couldn't afford it regardless, if my memory of your post serves correct. Interesting point.

So Macromedia is evidently near the top of the list of popular suites to rip -- Why haven't we seen an open source alternative show up yet? Linux to Windows, OO to Office, Mozilla to IE, but yet Macromedia remains unchallenged. I wonder why? The demand is obviously high, so you'd think the open source community would have already produced something. If they ever do, I'll be first in line to get it!