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So deep it's just dumb.
Well, I had a funny idea streak on the bus to work today, and thought I may as well get it out of my cranium before I forget it or before I realize how influenced by drowsiness it is.
Real short version: God created the universe and us in order to bring free-will into existence that is not his own. Ergo the whole existence of evil thing.
1. Let's assume there is a God with the capital G. Maybe not a white-robed figure, or even a consciousness, but at the very least some sort of primal cause and existence. This is the ultimate embodiment of choice or free will, since as the prime cause, it has no precedent to influence it. I'll use personifying terms hereafter though, because it's easier.
2. We probably do not have free will. I'd argue that we are a bit closer than the rest of the things we can observe, like computers, plants, rocks, animals, etc---but it's probably not as big a gap as we think it is. We still have a dang strong influence by comprehendable cause/effect chains like basic physiology.
3. Let's say God is actually lonely, or is at least the creative sort. Can you build yourself? Can we even understand ourselves yet? Not really. We can say "This neuron touches that one." But do we know the workings of the system? Nowhere close, even with some real low-level chemical workings of our bodies.
So God takes a shot at creating a bit, and gets the god-equivalent of Aibos and Eliza-bots and what-have you, because you can't design what you can't understand, and understanding yourself creates a feedback loop of complexity. These spinoffs could be considered angels, if you want to be really religious and metaphorical about it--They're godlike but no cigar.
So God does something pretty smart, and decides that the best way to make a entity of free will is to let one happen. Take some dimensions, stir them up, heat, wait until the concept of time appears, then wait several billion years... (Or even do something more basic with other ingredients which we don't have any theories to describe.)
And here we are, in a world where systems are increasing both in complexity and function (evolution) but also in size (encapsulation--a system containing other systems). Going from a one-dimensional particle up to a Caenorhabditis Elegans up to a world stock market etc. Let us not forget the music of the spheres (Wednesday showing only.)
After an infinite amount of inside-the-universe time, you get a coherent entity (not chaos) with an infinite number of levels of cause and effect (indistinguishable from chaos) and you're pretty much done.
Maybe the two God-entities must be totally irrelevant to each other, preserving the free-choice property, or they interact, causing a larger system, or something else--I'll leave that to the people who get paid to think of unprovable possibilities all day :)
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Are you starting a new religion? I'm confused :D
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Actually Terr, a lot of what you are considering is covered/explained (?) in some of the 'New Wave' movement.
I don't have the references to point you to, but I remember reading several theories about the cause and relevance of consiousness.
I believe that I read some of this in the 'Seth Cornicals' (don't quote me on that title, there were about 7-10 different Seth books by Jane Roberts -- again I am guessing on the authors name).
Edit> after a quick search, I came up with this: http://www.spiritual-endeavors.org/seth/
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could "god" create a rock so big he couldnt move it??????
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Would god care enough to make a rock knowing full well that attempting to create such a large rock would most definitely destroy the earth at which point us asking the question becomes irrelevant?
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Anybody read anything about the theory of intelligent design? Here is a small FAQ I googled up here
I watched a 2 hour video on it in science this year, I found it to be a VERY interesting theory, and have yet to see anything to disprove it.
Darwinism has been pretty much disproved, as Darwin states that if something could be found that couldn't be formed by evolution, then his theory would fall apart. A Bacteria's flagellum is a very good example of something that could not be evolutionized. It is what scientists call "irreducibly complex".
If I find some GOOD intelligent design links I will post...
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Eh, it was more of a what-if on the nature of free will, but whatever :)
Intelligent design is God making something, like a cellphone.
REALLY intelligent design is God creating a self-improving electronics kit which goes through a cellphone stage but may become a PDA depending on environmental pressures.
God is obviously too smart to have simply created everything :)
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A good cryptographic algorithm has only one coding key that would generate a certain ciphertext from a given plaintext. The algorithm is always the same, but on a certain value a certain output is generated.
Now you can loop through all the possible values and see a certain output, everytime different. But all those option exist, for each key.
Somebody having only the ciphertext cannot conclude, however, what degrees of randomness existed in the creation of that ciphertext. Whether it was a random key or a random algorithm or a dynamically altered algorithm, etc.
Point is... it is as likely that existence is the result of an algorithms as it is possible that it is a random event. If the Universe allowed for numerous 'keys' to be parsed through certain algorithms, we are one ciphertext. We exist because, at origin, this was one of the good 'seeds'. Can it be proven that we are the only attempt? The way I see it, maybe everytime the Universe collapses in itself and reforms, a new 'seed' is thrown into a function and a different output comes out.
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Quote:
Originally posted here by webwurm99
could "god" create a rock so big he couldnt move it??????
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=256588
:D
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It's times like this that I love AO and the crazy discussions we can have over the simplest things.
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as far as free will goes, you might want to read descartes' 6 meditations...
his whole grouping of meditations actually prove the opposite (for the most part) of what you came up with on the bus
http://www.wright.edu/cola/descartes/
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lol is there a chicken and egg string too??
could a rock so big god couldnt lift it displace the infinite universe ???
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Have you looked into the Free Will or Design Arguments for Gods existence Terr?
I had the unfortunate luck to be stuck in a Philosophy of Religion course for the year, all very well except when you are a humanist religion isnt very high up on the list of interests.
Basically your argument could be dismissed on many levels, mainly that why would God be the first thing as such, why stop at God? Also questions such as teleology etc.
I'm in work soon so this wont make sense or I might have read your argument too fast so I'll drop in later.
What I really wanted to say was, when you read Descartes move on fast, then ask, why he dosent reduce the 'I' in I think, therefore I am, why stop there...!
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Quote:
Originally posted here by webwurm99
could "god" create a rock so big he couldnt move it??????
i believe the answer to that question is that infinite weight versus infinite strength cancel each other out into an infinite struggle. its all infinite oo
[off subject]on a side note, no one is going to prove the existence of god, or lack thereof. People need to just be civil to each other. And eventually if there is a god, maybe that god will let us know, if not.. **** it.
My opinion on the god matter is that the whole god heaven/hell thingy is pointless. Why follow rules you don't know for sure are rules? Why not just do what you feel is right, and if you are wrong, simply believe that a god creating humans would forgive his/her/it/thingy's children, and thus reward them with a place in his/her/it/thingy's heaven or whatever.
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God will forgive his children. "For the Bible told me so."
Now being a Christian, I know this can only be accomplished through the acceptance of Jesus Christ. But, in all actuality, I hope that you are right. For the sake of every soul that has not acknowledged Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour of mankind, I hope that you are right.
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I think the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy gives the best view on God, life and the universe. I will also say I want a babel fish for my next birthday.
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Quote:
Originally posted here by OverdueSpy
God will forgive his children. "For the Bible told me so."
Now being a Christian, I know this can only be accomplished through the acceptance of Jesus Christ. But, in all actuality, I hope that you are right. For the sake of every soul that has not acknowledged Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour of mankind, I hope that you are right.
dude, this post could have been translated into nearly any religion ;)
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For myself, God doesn't work. I can't get the concept into my head.
And all of the wars since time immemorial were all religious based, the Crusades to Northern Ireland.......
In WW2 the Germans had Gott Mitt Uns on their belt buckles.
For me the best explanation of the whole religious thingy, was by Terry Pratchett, in the DiscWorld series, Small Gods. Wherein the people of one area were so obsessed / frightened by the priesthood, that they had abandoned their God, who for these reasons had become a Tortoise.................And who could only communicate to ONE of his subjects: Brother Brutha.
In essence, what is needed is a visible display of Godly power, undisputed and brutal, to make all those alleged leaders / voices of world wide religions to STFU...
One day, probably not in my lifetime, God might just get p155ed off enough to come through and make us all believers again.
[edit] Damn, but I ramble. Hopefully you will be able to make out WTF I'm on about.
Failing that, Peace, and may your God go with you. [/edit]
