U.S. Patriot Act - too invasive?

First off, I'd like to apologize if I'm beating a dead horse. I'm new to the forum, a member of only a few weeks, and wouldn't know if it's been talked about before. I clicked "Has my topic been posted before?" and it didn't find anything so I think I'm safe, but if I am raising a sorely worn out topic I'll be happy to let it die. That said...

Basically, I'm wondering if anyone else thinks that the Patriot Act is taking it too far. There really is a limit to how much the government should do to "protect" its citizens; that it can violate their privacy; has the Patriot Act passed this limit? I would prefer if this didn't turn into a flame and Neg AP war or anything, please keep in mind these are just opinions!! Thank you.


Regards,
Xierox

P.S. For those who would say this really isn't about computer security/privacy, I would beg to differ. A good part of the Patriot Act deals with new access the government has to your computer and your computer records.
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U.S. Patriot Act - The Patriot Act
Overview of Patriot Act - Basically condenses the Patriot Act into laymens terms. (for people like me!! :D)

Quotes from above document (The Overview one) that I find disturbing.

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Nationwide roving wiretaps. FBI and CIA can now go from phone to phone, computer to computer without demonstrating that each is even being used by a suspect or target of an order. The government may now serve a single wiretap, FISA wiretap or pen/trap order on any person or entity nationwide, regardless of whether that person or entity is named in the order. The government need not make any showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to a criminal investigation. In the pen/trap or FISA situations, they do not even have to report where they served the order or what information they received.

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Adding samples to DNA database for those convicted of "any crime of violence." Sec. 503. The provision adds collection of DNA for terrorists, but then inexplicably also adds collection for the broad, non-terrorist category of "any crime of violence."

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General Expansion of FISA Authority. FISA authority to spy on Americans or foreign persons in the US (and those who communicate with them) increased from situations where the suspicion that the person is the agent of a foreign government is "the" purpose of the surveillance to anytime that this is "a significant purpose" of the surveillance.

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:) Well when you go around the world making your own rules, upsetting
certain groups and religions, better to watch over your shoulder, than to
disregard certain threats. The invasion of privacy, is a defense that also
supports these terror groups/sleeper cells.
If you aint got dodgy stuff on ya box, dont worry, as long as this act protects
more than it invades.

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I would prefer if this didn't turn into a flame and Neg AP war or anything

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Bleh... if thats the case then why start off by bitching. :p

This topic has been posted several times well over a few years back but I could care less if its being brought back up agian. Now as for how I feel about it... being labeled a violent & terroristic criminal would be a complement towards me. But I really shouldn't have to explain why this act of political terrorism is unacceptable though. Start makeing your own decisions and beliefs... don't let them or anyone else turn that around.

Why should I explain why I think its bad for someone to take away people's civil rights and privacy... when you really should already know, or have come up with an answer to that. Then agian I may be under-estimating you both on how brain washed you are by the thought police & snitches.

http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedi...49052423A09.ra

Well, according to that, we are all being spied upon. This is an international based web site and we have on going political discussions ( arguements really) started almost every day (in Cosmos), by one side or the other.

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General Expansion of FISA Authority. FISA authority to spy on Americans or foreign persons in the US (and those who communicate with them) increased from situations where the suspicion that the person is the agent of a foreign government is "the" purpose of the surveillance to anytime that this is "a significant purpose" of the surveillance.

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Wouldn't that be a shocker, to find your own words have caused you to be targeted as a possible terrorist, because you used the wrong example or quote in a cosmos thread.

Of course I am sure that analists regularly go through the treadsn here any way.

Benjamin Franklin warned:

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

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I think I'll leave it to that..

What is the Patriot Act?

Just kidding, there are a 100 discussions on it already. It's almost expired BUT, one may take note that with the result of the 9/11 commission both sides of the fence will be forced to comply with most recomendations. For instance the creation of a dept. where ONE man acts outside of the office of the president to overseas ALL intelligence. Bad idea, Bush also thinks so, Kerry does not. At least his initial reaction is to support it. Probably just saying something to oppose Bush I guess. The wolves called for action, in an attempt to discredit the handling of 9/11 and the current office of the president. In doing so they (as usual) opened the gates of hell. The Patriot Act has a purpose, the complete overhaul of intelligence does not. All they needed was a little more resources in funds and support.

//EDIT

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Of course I am sure that analists regularly go through the treadsn here any way

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You give them way to much credit. :)

Thanks for the replies, all! This doesn't quite have to do with the Patriot Act, but I still find it quite interesting. I'm not saying Bush is actually shooting for this, but it makes one think...

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"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

-Hermann Goering, member of Hitler's inner circle

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Speaking of Cosmos, this really should belong there.

EDIT: Interesting quote there xierox.

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Originally posted here by Spyder32
Speaking of Cosmos, this really should belong there.

EDIT: Interesting quote there xierox.

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Sorry about that. I actually didn't notice that forum when I browsed the list on where to put my thread.

Regards,
Xierox

No worries friend. Anyway's, back to the discussion:

IMO, the patriot act as well as most of the new act's since Sept. 11th have done nothing but invade the privacy and the right's of American's. I forgot who or where I read it but someone said (mighta been on AO as a matter of fact) that the American government is letting the terrorist's "win" because they are compromising security for privacy and right's.

EDIT AGAIN: I'm blind, it's The_JinX's sig :p

The terrorists are winning becayse they are smart enough to hide behind the compassion of the west. Goerings quote shows his cunning, except unlike Nazi Germany who used the compassion and complacency of Europe to attack, we were attacked by a modern day Goering. We were actually attacked and are attacked everyday. What if the poor slob went to war and when he got back his farm was gone and he was placed in a concetration camp, the farm then becomes everything, a quest for the freedom he lost. Maybe he was an American or a settler in West Bank. Perhaps he was a black man in the south of the United States or a farm boy from Ohio on the way to Afganistan.

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The terrorists are winning becayse they are smart enough to hide behind the compassion of the west.

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Exactly, they are more inteligent than some seem to think. The media also plays right into their hands, jumping on any story that will get ratings, forgetting that these terrorists are studying our society and its way of thinking. They will rise to great heights on the back of our compassion and our freedom of speech and choice.

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Originally posted here by the_JinX
Benjamin Franklin warned:I think I'll leave it to that..

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however, i have no problem with giving up the rights of other convicted felons...

djscribble: Depend's on what right's. They still (I know it might not seem like it) deserve the unalienable human right's that EVERY human deserve's. That is unquestionable.

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Originally posted here by Spyder32
djscribble: Depend's on what right's. They still (I know it might not seem like it) deserve the unalienable human right's that EVERY human deserve's. That is unquestionable.

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Yes, it depends on what rights we are talking about. Everyone should have free speech and some other rights, but do you really want a felon to vote? This is a tricky subject in my opinion, and I don't consider myself qualified to make any choices here, yet.

Regards,
Xierox

Voting isn't exactly what I would call your "God given right's" as a human being.

basic human rights: life, liberty, persuit of happiness

death penalty - takes life
incarceration - takes liberty
laws - takes away some people's persuit of happiness...

our government has been doing this since the constitution has been written -- does that mean we are a country founded on hippocracy??

Free speech has limitations. Those limitations are based on responsibility to the use of speech.

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Originally posted here by Spyder32
Voting isn't exactly what I would call your "God given right's" as a human being.

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Good point. I guess it's kinda been ingrained in us Americans.

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Originally posted here by djscribble
basic human rights: life, liberty, persuit of happiness

death penalty - takes life
incarceration - takes liberty
laws - takes away some people's persuit of happiness...

our government has been doing this since the constitution has been written -- does that mean we are a country founded on hippocracy??

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I don't quite think your point is valid. What is meant by pursuit of life, liberty and happiness is that you have the right to pursue those as long as you don't encroach others. If you hurt another person or their property, that is encroaching. As long as you don't do that you are fine, but if you do there is punishment. So basically you can pursue your dreams as long you don't hurt anyone in doing so.