The State Of AntiOnline

People have asked me wondering what the hell is going on and asked what would make this site better. Before I begin, these are just opinions and ideas, and you can take it or leave it as it is.

AntiOnline has been on a downward spiral for a while, but it HAS been worse in the past, and some improvements have been made, alas, it can be much better. How can things be better here? I have some suggestions.

1. AntiOnline has lost its focus, and needs to find its old roots that AntiOnline was founded on, and that is make crackers hate this site once again. That means reinstating the way JP originally had it, and includes updated exploit code, ezines and activities from the underground that administrators and end users alike can learn and know what is going on to better protect themselves. You see, cracker kiddies always have the upper hand, and administrators need a bleeding edge for updated information not just in the news but what the tools and techniques crackers use. Remember when crackers hated JP so much this was a primary target? That's when AO was at its prime.

I would visit everyday to NOT see the forums but to take in the content this site offered including the intrusion log(it was cool to ask Bub about an attack attempt and read what kind of attack it was because it probably shows what kind of technique crackers are using at the moment... it seems they come and go in trends), interviews, hacker profiling, the files, and other great things. Granted, we will never have the "old days" because JP is gone, but it does not mean this site cannot reroute the focus, and the focus was NOT the forums, it was just a suppliment.

2. Despite the popular conception, AntiPoints are not a problem. In fact, they are a good idea. I have never had a problem with the system, but that should not be a focus on how this site can be better.

3. An addicted seniors forum is fine, and you can have it, but if all the important information is not presented to all users, then there is no point in new users showing up. So I suggest any good tutorials and/or discussions that need to be presented to non-elitists can be readble for all to get something.

4. Adovcacy should be for all operating systems and user level experience should be immaterial. If there is information for beginners like the "fight back" section, then even people without techincal knowledge can get quick and useful info. There is no reason why that cannot be added onto as new things crop up. When somebody says "I am running Windows ME" should not get snickers but real help. "Check Google" or "You are a dumbass" does not help anybody. It is different when people ask how to hack Hotmail or harm somebody, but it should not be a problem when somebody asks how to do something that is against thier own machine or asks an honest quesiton with something potentially questionable. Perhaps it should be more prominant?

5. There is so much potential for the newsletter for AntiOnline. MsMittens works very hard on that e-zine, and maybe if there were contests or more incentive to write cool articles for it, then maybe that will take off and contributed to more often.

6. A defaced page mirror can be helpful. Attacks are not limited to making a web page different, but it can also mean DoS's, how people steal YOUR data, intrude on your privacy, and other stuff. I have seen crackers steal entire databases filled with very sensitive data and have it available. Admins want to know this stuff right? Yes, maintaining a deface archive is HUGE task, and that's why Attrition stopped doing it because of the work invloved.

I know this site may not impliment any of these changes and go back to the "darker" feel it had before, but it was really nice before this became so watered down because it reminded me of the good guy wearing a black hat. That's what made me fall in love with this place. However, this site is owned by a conglomertate, and may taint the image of the company and may not be feasable, but I guess it was worth the shot.

Thanks Jack,
Now thats what I want to see CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISISM.

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3. An addicted seniors forum is fine, and you can have it, but if all the important information is not presented to all users, then there is no point in new users showing up. So I suggest any good tutorials and/or discussions that need to be presented to non-elitists can be readble for all to get something.

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Is one of the only ones I can directly address. The way that Tiger and I have suggested in this thread was to do exactly that. Either it was to be an open to everybody to read, but not post in, or it was to be edited and then displayed after a conclusion was determined. And no, it was never set in granite, it was just some loose ideas thrown out to attract the attention of the administrators so we could start to get something off the ground.

Antipoints I agree are needed for member moderation of this site. I think they are misused alot of the time, but I really can't think of a better system to implement.

Like you, I do miss seeing the stats on the attacks against 'AO'. To be truthfull, I didn't understand very much about them while they were still being displayed, but I was learning.

Now for my challenge: albn started this tread with some excellent constructive critisism. What do the rest of you have to say? Can you do as well and get a Discussion going that could be productive or just dump it back into a kiddie pud pulling flamewar?

moxnix

I think the "darker feel" you are looking for isn't something that JupM has any control over. It's more a product of the people than the board itself. There's a gazillion skiddie sites out there that try to project that "dark" image but the ensuing content shows the projection for what it is, a skiddie site.

Another argument that JupM is going to bring will go kinda like this..... We have an asset called AO. We make money from it but the profit margin isn't high. If we make AO a place the "enemy" hate and attack we have two choices:-

1. Spend a lot of money on a high priced SecAdmin to protect it specifically thus cutting into the profits, or
2. Don't spend the money, get hacked weekly and lose all credibility, thus all membership of worth, thus all our investment.

I don't think that when JP started AO he had those concerns. At the beginning his biggets investment would have been his time which, unfortunately, you can't go back and recoup. I think you will find that this argument, while not necessarily being argued by them in public, will be a big motivator for JupM.

Just my thoughts......

I for one feel that albn's comments should be taken seriously. He has taken the time to make a bunch of VERY constructive suggestions without letting his emotions run away with him. I think all the suggestions merit looking at. I feel that maintaining a defacement archive is a lot of work and (IMHO) of debatable value. However, I really feel that the other suggestions should be very very seriously considered. The hack attempts log might be a good idea but only if the attackers IP's were removed to protect JupM from getting sued. I'm all for making the AO newsletter better. Maybe offer a T-Shirt or something to someone who contributes over a particular number of articles. I'm also all for resurrecting the fight-back section.
I'm asking the community to look at these suggestions seriously and not ignore them just because Jack/albn suggested them. He's been behaving like an ass because he feels strongly about the site and he was just reacting to what he felt was a loss of quality.

Cheers,
cgkanchi

Not that it should be taken seriously by any means. This is probably something that is not in reach, and I just miss the old days. Since there is not much I can do about it, perhaps JupMedia can try to do something to focus more on content, news articles, interviews and other things like the old AO used to have and not make the forums the focus.

Oh well. Thanks Moxnix. My trolling days are over now that I got to finally say it. :|

I tried to "green you" but apparently I negged you too recently...... I guess it's the thought that counts......

If you have something to say, say it. But messing wih the forums and being a pain doesn't get you anywhere.... Conversely, you could argue that this thread won't get you anywhere either and you are right.... But it's no-one's _fault_, IMO.... The site attracts who it attracts.... It's hard for the owner to change that and it's harder still for the membership.

My thoughts.....

I do not need anybody's AP's. AP's as I said mean nothing. All they are to me are gif's.

Then can I assume you will be adult enough to accept the thought? Or would that be a little too much?

The thought is enough. But whatever. heh

Yeah.... I guess "whatever, heh" could be construed as a good thing......

BRAVO old chap......you raised some excellent points and I REALLY hope that JM sits up and takes notice. I agree with you that the forum I requested should be VIEWABLE TO EVERYONE but invulnerable to trolls....maybe it will even (if JM sees fit to allow it's existence) eventually take on the "dark feel" that you miss so badly. For that matter, I pretty well agree with everything you said.

I know it probably doesn't mean anything to you, but I want to publicly apologize for giving you down the road like I did in the "new forum" thread. You did indeed put your money where your mouth is, and this member appreciates your doing so.

JACK IS NOT A TROLL!!!!

Yeah, he's really not. He's just a wannabe troll ;)

even if jupmedia doesn't take action for the reasons stated above...they'll still lose money because sooner or later this site will completely lose the respect it one had, and the members who show up the most will start to leave. If you have no1 seeing the banners, then no more $$ for them. I for one show up at least 4-5 times. Plenty of other members do the same, if not more and if those members leave, simply because AO is not what it used to be, then it will be a loss of assets for JupMedia anyways. Unfortunately AO is not going to go back to what it used to be, but hopefully with our help, and a little action from JupMedia we can make it even better than what it used to be. Ok i'm done rambling on and on. Its getting late. Tomorrow i'll probably reread this post and fix it so it makes more sense. Good night all.

Well, I was never around for the old days, so all I know are the stories. As is, AO has done a lot for me as a net admin, so I'm very thankful for that, and see a lot of usefulness for the site. However, I really wish I could've been around for the old days though, it sounds infinitaley intriguing.

go to http://archive.org and type www.antionline.com and look for the older dates. It is slower than hell, but you will see what it used to be like. The old forums are even there, and look for linuxguy99... that was me. I only made like three posts. All my time was spent on the other parts of the site.

JP used UBB, and I think was in PERL and not PHP. That's what caused the defacements were the CGI sploits. He had two from what I recall, one in the AntiCode (which was an AWESOME resource) and the main page. I know a fellow named r0n1n defaced the main site.

In any case, some of the old stuff is still here, but I can bet it is not accessed nearly as much because it is simply not updated. That's not good.

Now... for another idea. I know there are people out there that DO have information about the underground, and maybe MsMittens can put that in the newsletter. Also, why not have the newsletters available for browsing via browser directly from AO without having to bother to download it? Hell, I'll translate whatever MsMittens has and translate it to HTML and make a post to where people can browse it from another site if JupMedia does not care to impliment it.

As for updated files, that is a but grey because not many hosts do not allow files that contain malicious code and when JP had his own server, he could do so. So I understand if JupMedia does not want to update things like this because of the sue factor... but I am sure there are members here that DO have hosts that can indeed host them and can have it available. That is not limited to kiddie tools, but other stuff admins can find useful.

More thoughts.

Ooops my mistake, it was not r0n1n who defaced the site (so sorry dude...) It had a similar sounding name of n1nor. Man, I feel like ****.

Here is the link http://www.wbglinks.net/pages/histor...nlinehack.html

Again, my deepest apologies for not having a clear memory.... :(

I must congrat albn for his analysis. I have followed the AO story for 3 years now (2 as a real member), and I remind clearly how it was with JP. Many things were not perfect at all (APs wars were so sad and stupid...) but AO had some force in the way it was a polemical source.

Our war with Attrition.org was the symbol of this state. We were hated, we were different, and it is what made us a community. It is what gave us our identity.

Maybe it's time to retrieve this particularity.

Kiss:

How?..... It's a product of the membership combined with the ability of JupM to accept a huge potential for risk to their business...... How do you suggest that the two can live side by side with both being successful?

Yeah, tough question, I know......

I see two possibilities:

- If JupM want to own something more interesting than "a big tech forum site slowly forgotten by everybody", they will have to improve its content and to accept to take some risks. They should be happy to see people attacking (verbally and technically) AO: It proves the site becomes more popular, and it provides them free publicity.
- A bunch of little (or not so little, sometimes) security sites are owned by AO members. We could create an "AO network" with all those sites, which would contain what JupM don't want to host, as suggested albn. We could even imagine to make specialized sites: one for admin tools, one for e-zines, one for exploits...
So, AO would be the central point of a whole organized community sites network.

Just my 2 cents.

I for one would be willing to either make a web site for some of this, or help someone else that is perhaps more compedent at web design than I am.

I don't know what legal hassles that Jupiter Media might have linking to 3rd party sites, but am more than willing to help in any way I can.

I am sure that there are other members who would be willing to donate their time and expertise to this kind of endevore also. But before we start making any lists of willing people and making plans for these web sites, we should get the response from Jupiter Media as to the legality and if/or they wish to be associated with anything like this.

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A bunch of little (or not so little, sometimes) security sites are owned by AO members. We could create an "AO network" with all those sites, which would contain what JupM don't want to host, as suggested albn. We could even imagine to make specialized sites: one for admin tools, one for e-zines, one for exploits...
So, AO would be the central point of a whole organized community sites network.

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Some problems may arise from this. As member web sites come and go so quickly. That means links will have to be updated constantly which would be a real pain in the ass. I cannot see AO condoning a "network" that is official anyway. Maybe I need to be a little clearer on the idea. If somebody has something to contribute if JupMedia does not want to officially recognize it, members can post a link to that resource. That way it is up to the user to update other users for changes to that resource.

IMHO, I do not see JupMedia really doing this because of the risk involved. There is too much riding on sponsors, and the other sites it has acquired, and if one site is known for problems, then other sites can be reflected from that one site if in fact it does carry a good guy in a black hat image.

As you know, JP really had no risk because it was all his and no coorperation owned it. Granted, he was careful and did all he could, but he jumped ship when the Titanic was sinking. Many think it was the AntiPoints, but it was not, and never has been. It lost focus.

How can we bring this site BACK into focus? That is a question that can only be answered by JupMedia, because it is shaking the very foundations on what the site is right now. That means changing a lot of code, moving **** around and a lot of stuff they just cannot be bothered to because they have a LOT of other sites to manage and keep going. While they may have the money, I do not think it is a wise business decision to change things around because albn wants a darker feel to it. It will take a lot more to do that, and that may require a LARGE majority of this site to demand it. Demand makes for change because money makes the world and web sites go around. I seriously doubt every member cares for this idea.

I just need to shut the **** up and either live with what we have now or move on.

I hope you're not true. I hope that JupM will understand that being serious in security field is not a matter of sponsorship, but of content. I hope they will wonder why SecurityFocus is so popular and respected, with its bugtrack list and all the vulnerabilities published. I hope they will wonder why such a polemical site like /. can be a reference. I hope they will wonder why FullDisclosure is still so used, while this mailing list is far away from AO conveniences.

I hope...

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Originally posted here by KissCool
I hope you're not true. I hope that JupM will understand that being serious in security field is not a matter of sponsorship, but of content. I hope they will wonder why SecurityFocus is so popular and respected, with its bugtrack list and all the vulnerabilities published. I hope they will wonder why such a polemical site like /. can be a reference. I hope they will wonder why FullDisclosure is still so used, while this mailing list is far away from AO conveniences.

I hope...

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As soon as the MEMBERS who make the posts realise that it should be fine. Before you point the fingers at Jupiter Media, take a look at AO. They do NOT make the posts, we do. If it's going down hill, it's because of us. And if you don't like it, change it. You have the power, do something about it.

Sitting around saying it's any one person's fault is crap. If you don't like how things are going, well, change them. Don't leave because "You don't like how AO is going". Grow your balls back and use them.

It would be cool to have a section of AO similar to other security places that have a section on exploits and things to help people remember to update, but the root is still everyone who posts here. If you think the front page is mostly tech support bullshit, which would be true, well, make posts that aren't, and take out the ones that are.

After I stood up and said I wouldn't put up with bullshit threads anymore, I got applause, and bitching. I got bitched out because I was being "Mean". Everyone wants to say how they think it could be better but few actually try and make it that way.

Take it like you want a job. Are you going to get a job sitting on your ass at home complaining about how you don't have one? Hell no. But getting of your ass and looking for one and actually trying will. Why should this be any different? It's still the same teachings. Actions speak louder than bitching.

I get bitched about and called an ******* because of what I do. Too ****ing bad. I'm not putting up with the bitching and whining because "AO Sucks" I'm going to do what I can about it. You can think I'm an ******* all you want, it doesn't matter.

At least I'm trying. And I'm also being called a "Wanna be mod" by Memory/Nemory/Wav for trying. Well, that's nice, I don't care.

AO is self moderated, everyone in this thread is a partial mod. The real Mods do what they can, and the members should be picking up the rest.



I've said it a million times already:

If you don't like it, get off your ass and do something about it. Re-Attach your balls, pull them out of the shrink wrap, and use the damned things.

AntiOnlines a state now? that's awesome.. can i be governor?

edit >> easy gore.. kisscool is cool.. no need to be mean ! :)

gore: I was talking on how JupMedia would most likely not change the entire site for one person. I said my piece, now I am done. Whatever happens with this site happens. People asked what happened, I answered. I did not expect a response such as this, but oh well.

I also gave some suggestions, but I never said they will or should be implemented either. In fact, it is basically silly to do so. People said "albn should be taken seriously" and "yeah ,they should do all these things" But that is unrealistic.

The bottom line is: The old days are gone, JP is gone, and this is what we have.

I will reiterate: I just need to shut the **** up and either live with what we have now or move on.

As for you being an ******* and wannabe mod, hey, you do what you want to do, say what you want to say or whatever. I am not here to judge anybody.

er0k: Make a thread that says "Make er0k governer of AntiOnline" I don't care.

I have to agree with gore on his opinion of what makes AO what it is. It is us, plain and simple. I seem to be continually complimenting gore on his contributions. (despite his "colorful" language ;) )

gore, I tried to give you greenies but it seems I have given you some on another topic recently. I now bestow upon you pseudo greenies.....

LOL! Thank Aeallison. My little PFY.

ALBN, you know I wouldn't attack you. I just had to get that off my chest. Wasn't trying to attack you or anything. You know me better than that :)

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Originally posted here by albn
People have asked me wondering what the hell is going on and asked what would make this site better. Before I begin, these are just opinions and ideas, and you can take it or leave it as it is.

AntiOnline has been on a downward spiral for a while, but it HAS been worse in the past, and some improvements have been made, alas, it can be much better. How can things be better here? I have some suggestions.

1. AntiOnline has lost its focus, and needs to find its old roots that AntiOnline was founded on, and that is make crackers hate this site once again. That means reinstating the way JP originally had it, and includes updated exploit code, ezines and activities from the underground that administrators and end users alike can learn and know what is going on to better protect themselves. You see, cracker kiddies always have the upper hand, and administrators need a bleeding edge for updated information not just in the news but what the tools and techniques crackers use. Remember when crackers hated JP so much this was a primary target? That's when AO was at its prime.

I would visit everyday to NOT see the forums but to take in the content this site offered including the intrusion log(it was cool to ask Bub about an attack attempt and read what kind of attack it was because it probably shows what kind of technique crackers are using at the moment... it seems they come and go in trends), interviews, hacker profiling, the files, and other great things. Granted, we will never have the "old days" because JP is gone, but it does not mean this site cannot reroute the focus, and the focus was NOT the forums, it was just a suppliment.

2. Despite the popular conception, AntiPoints are not a problem. In fact, they are a good idea. I have never had a problem with the system, but that should not be a focus on how this site can be better.

3. An addicted seniors forum is fine, and you can have it, but if all the important information is not presented to all users, then there is no point in new users showing up. So I suggest any good tutorials and/or discussions that need to be presented to non-elitists can be readble for all to get something.

4. Adovcacy should be for all operating systems and user level experience should be immaterial. If there is information for beginners like the "fight back" section, then even people without techincal knowledge can get quick and useful info. There is no reason why that cannot be added onto as new things crop up. When somebody says "I am running Windows ME" should not get snickers but real help. "Check Google" or "You are a dumbass" does not help anybody. It is different when people ask how to hack Hotmail or harm somebody, but it should not be a problem when somebody asks how to do something that is against thier own machine or asks an honest quesiton with something potentially questionable. Perhaps it should be more prominant?

5. There is so much potential for the newsletter for AntiOnline. MsMittens works very hard on that e-zine, and maybe if there were contests or more incentive to write cool articles for it, then maybe that will take off and contributed to more often.

6. A defaced page mirror can be helpful. Attacks are not limited to making a web page different, but it can also mean DoS's, how people steal YOUR data, intrude on your privacy, and other stuff. I have seen crackers steal entire databases filled with very sensitive data and have it available. Admins want to know this stuff right? Yes, maintaining a deface archive is HUGE task, and that's why Attrition stopped doing it because of the work invloved.

I know this site may not impliment any of these changes and go back to the "darker" feel it had before, but it was really nice before this became so watered down because it reminded me of the good guy wearing a black hat. That's what made me fall in love with this place. However, this site is owned by a conglomertate, and may taint the image of the company and may not be feasable, but I guess it was worth the shot.

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yeah.. anyone remember antioffline, and happyhacker.org, attrition, etc? (JP's nemesis - Carolyne Meinel (SP?) )

I dont see any of the JupMedia people on tv for being security experts :)

Carolyne Meinel ... yes, that name does ring a bell, and I remember she and JP were doing the wargames. Now IIRC, JP supposidly ratted people out or something and that's what caused a lot of problems? I am gonna have to look up some old stuff and get back to you.

And yeah, Attrition hated JP and AntiOnline. And nope, you will not see JupMedia on TV as secuity experts... so guess what that leaves, us.

From everything I read by Carolyn and everything I read about Carolyn I can safely say that the only person she was a "nemesis" to was herself.

Having flame wars with another site is one thing - but she should have at least produced something that gets past the net use command on an unprotected computer.....

Erok: What was the point of quoting the _whole_ of the OP's message? A simple "Albn:" would have sufficed.....

Ok, time to bring the fresh blood up to speed again.

I'm so fascinated with these old stories of AO's "golden age". Is there any trace of the Attrition/AO rivalry that cab be found in the archives?

You can search in www.attrition.org archives for some old angry text. But the "real" www.antioffline.com had been replaced by a real one (what makes me spectacularly laugh). It's sad.

You will discover what "terrible threat" JP was (irony inside).

edit: Stop! "Real" AntiOffline still exist! It is located here. It makes me nostalgic.
edit2: I apologize, albn. My edit impolitely crossed your post.

http://www.antioffline.com/antionline.html

That's some funny stuff. KissCool, yeah, it does bring back fond memories. I am also taking my own advice and changing all the PDF's MsMittens made and making them browsable. Shouldn't take too long.

Tiger Shark: why does it matter? cause i wanted to? I apologize if the page loaded that many ms slower for you but geez.

and she was a nemesis to jp as she caused him problems in the past. and no i dont remember exactly what the problem was.

Erok: I guess I'm just trying to work out your brain.... Everyone could already see the whole of the OP's post, I was wondering why you felt a special desire to repost the whole damn thing simply so you could put a "two liner" underneath it..... You have adequately delineated you brain function with line one of your subsequent response...... Sad really, don't you think... That you have so little respect for others?

Look at the definition of the word nemesis. You use it wrongly. You could beat Carolyn! Many here today could too.... Carolyn was a FUD artist that didn't even know her "trade".... Well, I guess she did - she is a reporter that scared people - if you suckered for that then you have my condolences and I hope you will learn better in the future.

Erok... You spout opinion without source.... Show me some substance.....

You don't like the thread so you start to act like a polite dickhead ?

(...thread - ...head, ahahaha)

neel: Yeah, I find it kinda ironic he bitches about bitches when he bitches too.

Greetings All:

I still troll the site on occasion, and came across this thread. I tend not to post or contribute at all, due to the way Jupiter decided to screw me over after acquiring the site. It was obvious that they wanted me to have nothing to do with AO, including contribute to it, and have basically done everyone they possibly could to turn me off from it. My non-compete runs out in a few months though. Not that I have any plans or anything... ;-)

However, I came across this thread, and was impressed by the ideas and opinions expressed in it by those who posted. So, for their sake, and for those who have remained active in the AntiOnline community, and who would like to see it evolve and grow, I figured that I would throw in my 2 cents. Take them for what they're worth, just about 2 cents:

What's Wrong With AntiOnline? Or, What Could Make It Better?

1. What made AntiOnline unique "back in the day", was best said by an ABC News reporter when he profiled the site. AntiOnline was a "Rick's Cafe In The Casablanca World Of Hacking". What did he mean by that? Basically, that we were in the unique position of being able to cull information from the underground world, from those who where causing the problems and doing the damage, and bring it out of the shadows to the rest of the world of computer administrators and assorted geeks. This no longer happens. There is no longer that conveyor belt of information and ideas from the criminal and underground side, to the "legitimate" computing world. That's why AntiOnline grew, that's why it was popular, and that's why you were constantly seeing it in the news. From what I've seen so far, I don't think Jupiter Media will ever be able to produce such a conveyor belt, and for that matter I don't think they have any desire to do so.

2. The site is no longer run by computer security experts. Instead, it's run by a rather bazaar amalgam of novice computer administrators, outsourced programmers from India (at least that's where they sound like they're from based on the contact i initially had with them), and technology clueless business people. Granted, there is a moderator or two who have a security background, but for the most part the site is operated by your run of the mill "IT Guy/Gal". You can clearly see how that has changed the focus of the site.

3. The site no longer has a figurehead. Any community, whether it be in the real world or the virtual one, needs a leader. I was kind of surprised that Jupiter didn't move in someone to take my place so to speak. Someone that would be the spokesperson for this community, who would drive it, and who would inspire it. At the end of the day, people need someone that they can look up to, look down upon, admire, hate, like or dislike. All depending on your respective point of view, of course.

4. Many people have mentioned this one in the thread, in many different ways: The site now relies too much on its users for content. It's great to have users adding their thoughts and ideas to a site, to teach and to learn from one another. However, I've always believed that a site needs to contribute as well. Where's AntiOnline's contribution to its users? The only content that the site has that it's offering to its users, is the content that I made way back when I owned the site. None of which has been updated, and most of which is now out of date, by the way. Of course, since there aren't any security experts involved in the operation of the site, there is probably no recognition at the managerial level of exactly how out of date that material is. It's almost embarrassing to me, to be honest, to see such out of date material hosted on the site with my name all over it.

5. The site is no longer attracting a lot of true security experts for all of the reasons mentioned above. If you look at recent topics, discussions on AIM Chatrooms have dozens of replies to them, while discussions on serious Cisco vulnerabilities have zero. That says something.

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Posted by: JP
5. The site is no longer attracting a lot of true security experts for all of the reasons mentioned above. If you look at recent topics, discussions on AIM Chatrooms have dozens of replies to them, while discussions on serious Cisco vulnerabilities have zero. That says something.

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Maybe we need an Exploits/Vuln -specific forum?

But now all the saints will come down hating because apparently we're helping scripties.

But then again, one can argue that all "security-related" sites help script-kidiots and must be shut down. And that Full Disclosure should be brought to a halt, and that Security Focus's mailing should cease...

We might aswell catch up to where the pros are, guys. Immitation is suicide, so lets not just carbon copy security focus, or slashdot, or whatever other security sites you visit.

Put some soul into it ;)

[P.S. - The forum could host a slew of user contributed, or user found POCs - :)]

Glad to see you posting JP ;) I think MsMittens and Neg are pretty much running the site at this stage on the daily basis so why not have them as 'figureheads' for want of a better word?